Critique my NIN rotation

K, so

Single target: Huton>SE>SF>MUT>SE>DE (unless storms eye is up, then its aeo edge after shadow fang) then armor crush for extended huton

Multi: Doton>Death blossom a few times>Kassatsu>Katon

Boss opener: SE>BFB>IR>GS>DE>KASSATSU>SUITON>SE>TRICKATTACK>GS>DUALTY>AEO EDGE

Then I keep my DoTs up until the boss is dead.

Dancing edge before DoTS or anything at all.

your AoE isn't good.

Kassatsu-Doton is better than Kassatsu-Katon, and Internal Release + Blood for Blood can make Death Blossem do more damage.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

your AoE isn't good.

Kassatsu-Doton is better than Kassatsu-Katon, and Internal Release + Blood for Blood can make Death Blossem do more damage.

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So, do i do katon first kassatsu then doton, bfb and ir then death blossom?

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Originally Posted by PawsTheKitti123

So, do i do katon first kassatsu then doton, bfb and ir then death blossom?

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yes, Death Blossom with those two buffs can do 1000+ critical damage on expert dungeon trash mobs (plus the additional damage from Kas-Doton) so nobody can say NIN sucks at AoE. :D

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Originally Posted by PawsTheKitti123

Boss opener: SE>BFB>IR>GS>DE>KASSATSU>SUITON>SE>TRICKATTACK>GS>DUALTY>AEO EDGE

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You never Kassatsu Suiton, especially not within the same GCD.

Pre-cast Huton > wait 15 seconds > SE > (B4B) > GS > (IR) > DE > (Suiton) > SE > (TA) > SF > (Kassatsu) > Mutilate > (Raiton) > SE > (DWD + Mug) > GS > (Duality) > AE > (Jugulate)

Depending on latency, replace Raiton with Shuriken. In general, ALWAYS apply DE before anything else, unless there's a WAR doing it. Never extend Huton when it's above 40s because the duration can't exceed the 70 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

yes, Death Blossom with those two buffs can do 1000+ critical damage on expert dungeon trash mobs (plus the additional damage from Kas-Doton) so nobody can say NIN sucks at AoE. :D

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Thanks so much! Also what do you think of the rest of the rotation?

first combo should goes for Dancing Edge and have Blood for Blood activated before Gust Slash or Dancing Edge. also apply Mutilate after this.

the second combo, it's time for Duality-Aeolian Edge, after this you can use Internal Release.

don't forget Suiton and Trick Attack.

then you can apply Shadow Fang, renew your Huton.

when Trick Attack is on cooldown, use Raiton instead. some ninjas don't know that we can cast Mudra while the character is performing weapon skill so they wasted their DPS potential.

I found this rotation on a forum a while ago and its pretty good.. more so if you have latency.
With a warrior slave my opener atm is this, replace the first aeolian edge with dancing edge if you have no warrior slave.

Huton(wait 20s) > Suiton > Spinning Edge > Kassatsu+Internal Release > Gust Slash > Blood for Blood > Aeolian Edge > Jugulate > Spinning Edge > Trick Attack > Shadow Fang > Dream within a Dream > Mutilate > Raiton > Spinning Edge > Mug > Gust Slash > Duality > Aeolian Edge..

..then follow up with a Armor Crush and then start refreshing your DoTs (& Dancing Edge/Armor Crush) when needed.

While on the topic of rotation. I also have a question. When is it the best time to refresh Huton with Armor Crush? I usually reset it around 17seconds left to 25 seconds left. However doing this way sometimes has it where DE will fall off momentarily or even longer because I have to refresh SF and Mut. Also is it also wrong that I barely get to do any AE combo with the heavensward stuff? I can record a video of my rotation later but not home atm.

Note I am also not lv60 but 59 so I don't think DWaD will make much of a difference.

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Originally Posted by ExiaQuanta

While on the topic of rotation. I also have a question. When is it the best time to refresh Huton with Armor Crush? I usually reset it around 17seconds left to 25 seconds left. However doing this way sometimes has it where DE will fall off momentarily or even longer because I have to refresh SF and Mut. Also is it also wrong that I barely get to do any AE combo with the heavensward stuff? I can record a video of my rotation later but not home atm.

Note I am also not lv60 but 59 so I don't think DWaD will make much of a difference.

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Between 15-25 seconds is generally fine. This gives you enough time to reapply DE/SF/Mutilate if they're falling off soon, before actually using AC. And yes, it's normal that you don't get to use AE as much now.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Between 15-25 seconds is generally fine. This gives you enough time to reapply DE/SF/Mutilate if they're falling off soon, before actually using AC. And yes, it's normal that you don't get to use AE as much now.

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Alright ill give that shot then o3o.

I am also not yet 60, but I use AC any time under 40s where I don't need either DE, M, or SF. I figure the Huton tmer will run out eventually so the more time left the less chance I have to use Ninjutsu on Huton.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

yes, Death Blossom with those two buffs can do 1000+ critical damage on expert dungeon trash mobs (plus the additional damage from Kas-Doton) so nobody can say NIN sucks at AoE. :D

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It still sucks :P it's just much better when you buff it properly. Also it should be noted that Doton is not always the clear choice, as Katon -> Kassatsu Katon is better if the pack will die before all dots tick on Doton.

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Originally Posted by PawsTheKitti123

So, do i do katon first kassatsu then doton, bfb and ir then death blossom?

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Just to clarify, make sure to use BfB before you use the Kass'd Doton. From this.

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Originally Posted by PawsTheKitti123

K, so

Single target: Huton>SE>SF>MUT>SE>DE (unless storms eye is up, then its aeo edge after shadow fang) then armor crush for extended huton

Multi: Doton>Death blossom a few times>Kassatsu>Katon

Boss opener: SE>BFB>IR>GS>DE>KASSATSU>SUITON>SE>TRICKATTACK>GS>DUALTY>AEO EDGE

Then I keep my DoTs up until the boss is dead.

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I won't comment on your multi rotation, because for the most part NIN doesnt really have a aoe rotation in my opinion but I will address the boss opener, which can be used as your single target opener

Boss opener Pre-cast Huton>wait 10-15 seconds>pull occurs> as you are running towards the boss, Suiton>

spinning edge (pop B4B and IR here)>Gust slash (pop dex potion if you are doing hardcore raiding if not, you can pop IR here)

>dancing Edge(pop Kassatsu here, only pop one OGCD here because it has a longer animation lock than usual)>spinning edge

(trick attack)>Shadow fang(raiton/fuma shuriken here, Raiton is usually better due to the mudra lag being fixed)

>Mutilate(dream within a dream or mug here, only one OGCD though)>spinning edge(dream within a dream or mug)

>gust slash(duality)>aeolian Edge(jugulate)


It is important to note that with this rotation, you will be able to fit every single attack into the vuln debuff from trick attack and the dex buff from your choice of potion

Let me know If I forgot something, I usually tend to forget something

I use Dancing Edge before Shadow Fang because DE has a longer duration. I could get two Shadow Fang's in before DE wears off, even if a WAR is in group; I open with DE so the WAR can build momentum for other abilities.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Just to clarify, make sure to use BfB before you use the Kass'd Doton. From this.

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There's something in that link I must comment on:
"Individual ticks of Doton will all be guaranteed crits if you use it with Kassatsu, making it one of the most potent AoE abilities in the game."

I used to ALWAYS apply Kassatsu then Doton, but many folks told me I'm wrong, that it should always be Raiton or Fuma. That guide says I SHOULD be using Kass with Doton. I really need to stop listening to people and continue doing my own thing.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

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There's something in that link I must comment on:
"Individual ticks of Doton will all be guaranteed crits if you use it with Kassatsu, making it one of the most potent AoE abilities in the game."

I used to ALWAYS apply Kassatsu then Doton, but many folks told me I'm wrong, that it should always be Raiton or Fuma. That guide says I SHOULD be using Kass with Doton. I really need to stop listening to people and continue doing my own thing.

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Folks have been telling you about single targets where you obviously won't use Doton and thus Kassatsu Raiton/Fuma, which obviously makes no sense on an AoE pull because you won't Raiton in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

[/B]

There's something in that link I must comment on:
"Individual ticks of Doton will all be guaranteed crits if you use it with Kassatsu, making it one of the most potent AoE abilities in the game."

I used to ALWAYS apply Kassatsu then Doton, but many folks told me I'm wrong, that it should always be Raiton or Fuma. That guide says I SHOULD be using Kass with Doton. I really need to stop listening to people and continue doing my own thing.

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Pretty sure they're talking about single target, if they're referencing AoE pulls then they have no business playing DPS classes.

@above conversation:

Doton is 30 potency per tick, 8 ticks. 240 total potency.

Raiton is 360 potency.
Fuma Shuriken is 240 potency - and it's buffed by both poison and dancing edge to give it an effective comparative potency of 316.8.

If you're casting Doton in ST rotations, ever, you're doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Pretty sure they're talking about single target, if they're referencing AoE pulls then they have no business playing DPS classes.

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It was during dungeons, on trash.

Compared to most of the openers listed in here I'd make one edit: Don't do mutilate during the trick attack vulnerability up. I've done a bit of testing and it always comes out better to do it afterwards. The dot ticks from mutilate are only 10% higher while vulnerability up is up... and ten seconds is not long enough to make mutilate worth doing over another GCD. My two cents.

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Originally Posted by Iz_Lemon

Compared to most of the openers listed in here I'd make one edit: Don't do mutilate during the trick attack vulnerability up. I've done a bit of testing and it always comes out better to do it afterwards. The dot ticks from mutilate are only 10% higher while vulnerability up is up... and ten seconds is not long enough to make mutilate worth doing over another GCD. My two cents.

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I was under the impression that all DoTs aside from ground AoEs / auras dealt damage for their full duration based on whatever buffs/debuffs were up at application, e.g. a Mutilate applied during TA would do 396 instead of 360 potency if unclipped? Could you pass a link as to what effects are or are not snapshotted? Can't seem to find anything from Heavensward on.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I was under the impression that all DoTs aside from ground AoEs / auras dealt damage for their full duration based on whatever buffs/debuffs were up at application, e.g. a Mutilate applied during TA would do 396 instead of 360 potency if unclipped?

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That is correct and Mutilate is no exception. So you absolutely want to use it during TA.

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Originally Posted by Iz_Lemon

Compared to most of the openers listed in here I'd make one edit: Don't do mutilate during the trick attack vulnerability up. I've done a bit of testing and it always comes out better to do it afterwards. The dot ticks from mutilate are only 10% higher while vulnerability up is up... and ten seconds is not long enough to make mutilate worth doing over another GCD. My two cents.

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testing might be bad if you came to that conclusion. dots are snapshot-ed when used.

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Originally Posted by Iz_Lemon

The dot ticks from mutilate are only 10% higher while vulnerability up is up...

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No idea where you picked this up but this is as wrong as it can get.

Ok... capable of admitting when I'm beaten :P

What I was ultimately going on were some lower-than-they-should be thordan numbers that a friend was parsing me on, and dropping mutilate out of the trick attack opener got a big boost. And then I sort of polled some people who held the opinion that dots snapshot buffs, but not DEbuffs. Just spent a couple of minutes on a training dummy observing numbers and yeah, everyone else is right. Snapshots debuffs as well.

As far as the thordan numbers go, I think that because of dodging meteorain I wasn't getting the duality-ed aeolian edge into the trick attack window and dropping mutilate until after that made it more comfortable and consistent.

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Originally Posted by Iz_Lemon

Ok... capable of admitting when I'm beaten :P

What I was ultimately going on were some lower-than-they-should be thordan numbers that a friend was parsing me on, and dropping mutilate out of the trick attack opener got a big boost. And then I sort of polled some people who held the opinion that dots snapshot buffs, but not DEbuffs. Just spent a couple of minutes on a training dummy observing numbers and yeah, everyone else is right. Snapshots debuffs as well.

As far as the thordan numbers go, I think that because of dodging meteorain I wasn't getting the duality-ed aeolian edge into the trick attack window and dropping mutilate until after that made it more comfortable and consistent.

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You most certainly can get all your dots, mug, doad, and duality in for your TA opener on Thor. If you don't attack exactly as your tank lobs, then maybe he'll turn during your AE to do his conal attack, otherwise you can bait the meteorain on either flank and keep the rear open.

I always did katon -> kassatsu -> doton then blossom in aoe situations...Was I wrong?

Use this guide it is extremely thorough and accurate and has been vetted and reviewed by some of the best dps in this game.

http://dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/...as-ninja-guide

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Originally Posted by Hivernica

I always did katon -> kassatsu -> doton then blossom in aoe situations...Was I wrong?

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Nah you are fine. But you want to be doing death blossom in between ogcds/mudras.... so like:
Katon > Death Blossom > (Kassatsu) + (B4B) > Death Blossom > Doton > Death Blossom > (IR) > spam Death Blossom

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Use this guide it is extremely thorough and accurate and has been vetted and reviewed by some of the best dps in this game.

http://dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/...as-ninja-guide

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This was linked on page 2 btw ;p