Current state of MCH?

I took a break from combat classes and only been playing casually for the last 2-3 months, so I've fallen out of the loop as to how the classes play these days. I've really been wanting to level MCH recently though, and possibly make it my new main since I've been getting tired of my old one. Right now I'm at 40 and absolutely love the class (though I think turrets could be slightly reworked to have a mini pet bar to follow/stay/place since them being stationary seems pointless).

Anyway, I have been plagued by some concerns that make me question if I should keep going. One is that I always hear how it and BRD change fairly dramatically in playstyle at 52+, which I think is something I'll have to experience myself. But the other is that when I was playing regularly, the general consensus was that MCH was "literally the worst job ever", and when I grouped with them I could feel that things felt slower.

My question is, has this changed? Has there been updates to buff the class? Or have people just figured out how to play the class better? Or is it just the same as it was?

MCH and BRD are pretty much in a near identical balance place, depending on comp. Mandatory in progressive content. People optimized rotations, we got some nice QOL buffs so all is good for us. If you love the job stick with it. Tiny bit of stigma out there towards us still due to our place on 3.0 launch and having the fewest players playing our class to change peoples minds.

MCH is and always has been a solid job. People saw the numbers as weak before Alex came around due to A) It's new, people need time to adjust and B) The only fight you could use as a measure for DPS were not very fair. The only other option was training dummy where melee absolutely flourish and the physical ranged DPS (naturally the weakest DPS jobs) don't really "flourish" at all.
Playing both jobs the strengths and weaknesses of one compared to the other stand out, I'd probably rather play BRD for progression but MCH is really fine.
As for noticing slow runs with MCH? I notice slow runs all the time. People in DF are generally not very good. However MCH AoE is really good and I would welcome a decent/good MCH the same as I would a SMN in a dungeon run.

Whoever said MCH is the worst job ever just doesn't know or care to learn how to play it. It has a semi steep learning curve to play it efficiently but in my opinion it's very fun and can still output good DPS (at least more or the same as a brd)

They have added an update to quick reload so you have much more time using bullets and not just hitting 1 over and over until something procs.

MCH is balanced quite well with bard but that isn't the problem. The problem is that almost everyone hates the aesthetics of MCH.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

MCH is balanced quite well with bard but that isn't the problem. The problem is that almost everyone hates the aesthetics of MCH.

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Yes it is not for everyone.

Thanks for the answers. I will def stick with it. I'll still have to see if I like it when I get the addition of Gauss though since I enjoy the mobility. But honestly I think I'll be ok since I played BLM a lot in 2.0, and have all three healers at 60 so I'm used to stance dancing. Though being a completely mobile ranged class would have been better, but I don't think it'll be a deal breaker.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

MCH is balanced quite well with bard but that isn't the problem. The problem is that almost everyone hates the aesthetics of MCH.

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Really? Why is that? Do you mean skill animations or the overall look of gear/guns? I'd be lying if I didn't say at least half of why I want to play it is cause of the gear options they get. Their animations aren't terribly flashy, but they aren't bad imo.

They're in pretty high demand right now. Lacking BRD and MCH is seems.

I'd really like to look like i'm aiming my shots instead of casting them and I have all but forgotten about those two slots taken up by reduce monsters physical or magical damage by an insignificant amount for an insignificant amount of time.

Apart from that after I gave up the idea that I thought I was going to be a buffing class I quite enjoy playing as them.

For dungeon running I play with a summoner and we clear the mobs out serious fast.

I love MCH. For dungeons it can push out some really good aoe dps which is always welcome. For raiding it brings as much as bard does depending on group composition (bard seems to be preferred for 2x casters, machinist is good for 2x melee). Its burst is silly high.

Only gripe is my gun is being harassed by a mechanical squid with gauss barrel on - we need to be able to turn off the graphics for this like darknights now get to with darkside.

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Originally Posted by aabe

MCH is and always has been a solid job.

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Quit kidding yourself. 3.0 MCH was beyond underpowered.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Quit kidding yourself. 3.0 MCH was beyond underpowered.

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One word: Rapidfire

Instant mounting, instant teleporting. Good times.

rip rapid fire glitch we hardly knew ye ;-;

Release of 3.0 had BRD and MCH being incredibly undertuned; WM and GB were actually a dps loss even at 60 so there was really no reason to stay in beyond the 2 skills, and it also made the leveling process incredibly atrocious if it was not your first job via MSQ.

BRD also had questionable additions that made their job (imo, along with a good handful others) just not fun to play due to it not working properly and such.

After some tuning, both BRD and MCH functional and can work for their raid spots, are comparable to each other in damage, performance, utility and even gameplay (which isn' a good thing imo). MCH has more re-active procs to play to and a burst period that turns the game into Beethoven simulator. BRD is less procs to watch out for, and cooldown utilization is stacking everything onto barrage with empyreal arrow. Once you get past the novelty of it being a new/different job, you'd probably feel that the all it is to it when it comes to MCH's general gameplay compared to BRD.

Both completely fail at aesthetics though. The cast animation for WM and GB are godawful, they both have functionally the same abilities for the sake of homogenizing each other (which they should avoid considering they're different jobs...), and no matter how good your gun looks, it's going to be ruined by the mismatching lunch box (which is the same no matter what your gun is) and the guass barrel.

One common thing people says that "MCh is more work for the same reward" when you look at how they handle wildfire and the amount of awareness they'd need for procs compared to BRD. But honestly, once you take that away, you're just playing a reskinned BRD at that point since they lack any other differentiation aside from wildfire and their "filler shots"

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Originally Posted by aabe

MCH is and always has been a solid job. People saw the numbers as weak before Alex came around due to

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While it wasn't low enough that prevented content from clearing, both MCH and BRD were objectively behind every other job in dps by a subsatnial amount. And even then, 3.0 had WM and GB being so undertuned with 20% and the fact it was a 3-second cast time to activate it caused it to become a retro-active dps loss if you held onto it beyond using empyreal and sidewinder/gauss and ricochet and made it unfeasible for stance-dancing. You were acutally better off taking off gauss barrel after the pull and quick-swapping it with the rapid fire glitch; a full time GB versus no GB at all led to a difference of 3-5% dps (going on both directions no less because you'd have to hit every single cast time and oGCD) where as every other job would see at least a 20% increase by using their 3.0 abilties.

Machinist was a very fun job, until I got Gauss Barrell. Haven't leveled it any further.

I love the playstyle and most of the aesthetics. I'd appreciate a toggle for Gauss Barrel and a decent explosion on Wildfire. Grenado Shot's a bit too subtle as well.

The turrets being stationary is completely irrelevant most of the time with how short the cooldown is... unless you want to bishop turret moving targets, but flaming arrow and such have similar problems.

The rotation's a bit overwhelming at first but not too bad with practice. Make sure you know when the boss is going invulnerable though, failed wildfires really suck.

I stopped leveling it at 53. Switched to leveling my DRG to 60 and haven't looked back. It's so damn boring. It lacks any visual excitement, the guns all look terrible (except for Gjallahorn), and the animations lack flair. It's just standing there and going "pew, pew". I think the biggest issue is, in fact, the weapon. Using a boring ass musket isn't exciting. Should've been dual pistols/machineguns (don't even come at me with lore bullshit). THIS is a gun job done right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFDuX-46QmA

Also mechanics wise there's a huge problem, with the way their combo procs. On DRG the MOMENT I hit Chaos/Full Thrust, either Fang and Claw or Wheeling Thrust proc IMMEDIATELY. On MCH it has a habit of proccing at the very last second, which can mess things up. Not sure if it's lag or what, but that needs to be fixed.

I'd really like to look like i'm aiming my shots instead of casting them

Think of it as channeling your bullet with thunder-aspected aether using your GB.

I took Mch to 60 pre 3.1, it was okay. Post 3.1 it's still meh.
Once rapid shot goes down I feel like I can button mash and look away while GB slowly activates my boosted shots at rng chance of proc.

Honestly if I need to dps I'll bust out my ninja. Playing caster is fun, as SMN or BLM.. not so fun as Mch or Brd.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I'd really like to look like i'm aiming my shots instead of casting them

Think of it as channeling your bullet with thunder-aspected aether using your GB.

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Twirling your gun and holding it upward isn't aiming it, bub.

MCH is very fun and a decently strong class.

The only grief I have with it is keeping your Ammo up before a boss pull.

You will want to make a macro especially if you need to wc.

/ac Quick Reload
/wait 16
/ac Quick Reload

....etc

You don't need a macro to Hit Quick Reload every 15 seconds.

MCH is definitely the most fun job I have played in this game. Sure I can gripe a bit about some design decisions, but it is a real fun job to play overall. The only real big issue I have with MCH and it is the same issue with BRD is that our support abilities makes us more viable heavy progression wise to certain group compositions. It should of been set up that MCH and BRD play differently, but their support abilities such as Foe's Requiem and Hypercharge should of been more homogenized. Not to say completely the same, but have both BRD and MCH be very beneficial for both mage heavy or physical heavy parties.

If you have doubts playing the job, don't. It is as welcomed of a job as any other in this game. It just got some flack at the beginning because people did not know how to work with it at first, leading them to believe it was a bad job. Nothing feels quite good like a 10K+ Wildfire after seeing all the crits go off before then.

I hope they don't change the looks and animations of the machinist. A job does not have to be over the top and flashy to be fun. Machinist for the most part is perfect to me animation wise.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I hope they don't change the looks and animations of the machinist. A job does not have to be over the top and flashy to be fun. Machinist for the most part is perfect to me animation wise.

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I'd be satisfied with changing the cast animation for GB and making wildfire an actual explosion. It's hardly noticeable and pretty demoralizing when your wildfire gets eaten in diadem or hunts.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

If you have doubts playing the job, don't. It is as welcomed of a job as any other in this game. It just got some flack at the beginning...

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I feel like this is going to be the 1.0 of MCH haha. Like how XIV is doing great now and Yoshi still gets asked in interviews "Soo.. tell us about how the game failed at first" as a talking point. We could be waiting for 7.0 and people still won't have dropped it.

Personally I enjoy the stereotype because the less popular the class is, the more job security I have. It's also nice to be the pacer of the group - if MCH/BRD are support classes they should do the lowest DPS right? I set a very high bar so I enjoy seeing people sweat it to not get embarassed.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I feel like this is going to be the 1.0 of MCH haha. Like how XIV is doing great now and Yoshi still gets asked in interviews "Soo.. tell us about how the game failed at first" as a talking point. We could be waiting for 7.0 and people still won't have dropped it.

Personally I enjoy the stereotype because the less popular the class is, the more job security I have. It's also nice to be the pacer of the group - if MCH/BRD are support classes they should do the lowest DPS right? I set a very high bar so I enjoy seeing people sweat it to not get embarassed.

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I have not met one person on my server that has denied a MCH just because they are a MCH. Most likely because anyone with common sense knows it is a good job and in no crisis mode.

All major MCH problems at the beginning of the expansion were user errors.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

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All major MCH problems at the beginning of the expansion were user errors.

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Even without user errors, MCH (and by extension, BRD) were still undertuned compared to the rest of the dps jobs, let alone the fact that their post-50 abilities are essentially useless for the entire leveling process since WM/GB was a damage loss whe nit was only 20%. They werent low enough that it prevented content clears, but content at the time weren't taxing on healers for mp either; Outside of foe and hypercharge (which may not even make up the damage discprendency depending on party composition and if healers are dpsing), they bought nothing special with objectively lower damage than the other jobs.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Even without user errors, MCH (and by extension, BRD) were still undertuned compared to the rest of the dps jobs, let alone the fact that their post-50 abilities are essentially useless for the entire leveling process since WM/GB was a damage loss whe nit was only 20%. They werent low enough that it prevented content clears, but content at the time weren't taxing on healers for mp either; Outside of foe and hypercharge (which may not even make up the damage discprendency depending on party composition and if healers are dpsing), they bought nothing special with objectively lower damage than the other jobs.

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I'm aware of this, I was referring to optimal rotations.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I'm aware of this, I was referring to optimal rotations.

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That's also applicable to BRD (who arguably has the least rotational change, second to warrior and monk), and especially jobs who have a larger margin for error between doing ok and optimal dps. Even at optimal rotations, you'd still lag pretty far behind every other jobs who are equally as optimal. Saying that people not knowing the job being the/all major problem is false when they have post-50 abilities that lower their dps and can be outright condescending to some people without added context.

BRD and MCH are probably the least played jobs now and among the 2 it'll be MCH that's least played.

For one thing, it's new and also had a bad red early on and the playstyle does not appeal to many.

I'd say it's niche, but certainly in a better place than it was before. Prior to all these buffs, I was hearing MCHs getting kicked from parties due to low dps

I think machinist is in a good state. Lots of people would take bard over machinist only because they know what to expect from it. They know the dps range, they know how good foe is and with the new rod change. Healers will love u.

However, machinist shines in a 2 melee setup. And it brings more utility to the raid than bard. Stun, silence, bind, heavy, dismantle/rend mind. Something that bards lack.

Not to mention no cast time to promotion.

Dps I would say is equal to bard. But u have more movement options under reload/quick reload procs or during rapid fires.

I feel machinist still have the stigma of "new" and is still "unknown" to many players even those in raiding fcs :(

MCH and BRD pay too big of a damage penalty for too little utility. Nearly every damage dealer was handed some potent party utility and doesn't pay a damage tax. Not to mention that their utility is almost useless in a dungeon. BRD & MCH are brought to raids as a mana battery and for foe's.

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Originally Posted by Dianoia

MCH and BRD pay too big of a damage penalty for too little utility. Nearly every damage dealer was handed some potent party utility and doesn't pay a damage tax. Not to mention that their utility is almost useless in a dungeon. BRD & MCH are brought to raids as a mana battery and for foe's.

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I'd hardly call being mandatory in progressive content a giant pentalty for their utility. The other DPS who don't have a "penalty" seem to be quite interchangeable with each other. They also have the perk of having very nice trash clearing in dungeons when their utility isn't used so it's not like that's a lost cause.

I have to agree that the penalty seems a little bit too big, especially when MCH and BRD have to use GB and WM. Progressive content aside, our utility suffers a lot in faceroll content and light parties.

Bard had mandatory presence when there was no MCH, but now they are fighting over one slot. I am not aware that progression FCs would take both with all the dps checks, so that's hardly excuse for penalty so big.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I'd hardly call being mandatory in progressive content a giant pentalty for their utility. The other DPS who don't have a "penalty" seem to be quite interchangeable with each other. They also have the perk of having very nice trash clearing in dungeons when their utility isn't used so it's not like that's a lost cause.

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DRG's aren't interchangable.

Neither is BLM+SMN, no more than BRD+MCH is anyway.

DRG is the only job that has a mandatory slot, people never seem to realise this for some reason though.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

DRG's aren't interchangable.

Neither is BLM+SMN, no more than BRD+MCH is anyway.

DRG is the only job that has a mandatory slot, people never seem to realise this for some reason though.

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Alas we're left with Brd/Mch - Smn/Blm - Drg and (Nin,Mnk and Smn/Blm) fighting for the spot. Every class is jealous of Drg DPS + utility so that's more of an isolated problem that may or may not need to be tuned. However I hardly think that buffing Brd/Mch damage so that you can cut out Nin and Mnk for the 4th slot would be a nice thing to do, considering they already wrestle with Brd comps who want the second caster.

It'd be like the days of early coil where everyone wanted multiple Bards because their damage was so overtuned for what else they brought to the table.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Alas we're left with Brd/Mch - Smn/Blm - Drg and (Nin,Mnk and Smn/Blm) fighting for the spot. Every class is jealous of Drg DPS + utility so that's more of an isolated problem that may or may not need to be tuned. However I hardly think that buffing Brd/Mch damage so that you can cut out Nin and Mnk for the 4th slot would be a nice thing to do, considering they already wrestle with Brd comps who want the second caster.

It'd be like the days of early coil where everyone wanted multiple Bards because their damage was so overtuned for what else they brought to the table.

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Of course buffing their dps to MNK and NIN level would be a bad idea, but I don't think that if the penalty was halved to make BRD+MCH groups more viable, it would be evil in any way.

Personally as MCH I would love to be able to play with my friends who main BRD, instead of fighting with them for a spot.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Alas we're left with Brd/Mch - Smn/Blm - Drg and (Nin,Mnk and Smn/Blm) fighting for the spot. Every class is jealous of Drg DPS + utility so that's more of an isolated problem that may or may not need to be tuned. However I hardly think that buffing Brd/Mch damage so that you can cut out Nin and Mnk for the 4th slot would be a nice thing to do, considering they already wrestle with Brd comps who want the second caster.

It'd be like the days of early coil where everyone wanted multiple Bards because their damage was so overtuned for what else they brought to the table.

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BRD is not the only job now though...

Having both jobs be completely incompatible with each other is terrible design imo, at least there is an option to take a BLM and SMN if a group so chooses.

SE has backed themselves into a corner on this I think.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

BRD is not the only job now though...

Having both jobs be completely incompatible with each other is terrible design imo, at least there is an option to take a BLM and SMN if a group so chooses.

SE has backed themselves into a corner on this I think.

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I don't think many games have a design philosophy that all designated supports would make a great team. On that factor, I'm not against the incompatability of MCH/BRD on the same team and I don't feel that them being weak together is a design flaw or a backed into a corner move, it would be a different story if they just made us straight up DPS and got rid of the support tag.