Diadem Gold Chests

So I've been there 5 times, though last night we had 1 tank, 6 dps, and 1 healer. Every time we attacked Tier 5 mob, we rarely got any chest at all, even when we went full zerg, LBing and me in Deliverance stance.

I did notice that the hate totals bars never showed all 8 of us having aggro, despite the fact 8 of us were attacking the same mob. We went 90 minutes with no gold chests, and it counting zero NM's killed.

So... nothing was listed in this patch about fixing this.... anyone know if I just had a glitch, or if this was fixed? Kinda reminded me when you go into a crowded Hunt/Fate and your attacking a mob but they don't show on your aggro/mob list until like 30 seconds in. Server lag maybe?

Appreciate your thoughts!

Likely your team wasn't doing enough damage to get credit which means some weren't participating or just didn't know their class. If you said that you didn't see some had hate on the mobs it's likely the former.

As far as gold chess they are random drops so it's chance. If you go into easy mode the chances are low and they increase as you increase the difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Likely your team wasn't doing enough damage to get credit which means some weren't participating or just didn't know their class. If you said that you didn't see some had hate on the mobs it's likely the former.

As far as gold chess they are random drops so it's chance. If you go into easy mode the chances are low and they increase as you increase the difficulty.

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It's hard to imagine that being the case, because we didn't even get bronze chests off some tier V mobs. I had gone in before with 2 tanks 2 healers 4 dps and seen multiple gold chest. It stands to reason that swapping second healer and tank for more dps would only help that? It seemed more like their contributions weren't being counted at all?

Unless, as has been speculated but not confirmed in other threads, that getting credit is less about damage and more about enmity generation. So Healers, spam those AoE heals, then drop to Cleric for DPS. Tanks, stay in tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Steady

It's hard to imagine that being the case, because we didn't even get bronze chests off some tier V mobs. I had gone in before with 2 tanks 2 healers 4 dps and seen multiple gold chest. It stands to reason that swapping second healer and tank for more dps would only help that? It seemed more like their contributions weren't being counted at all?

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The only thing swapping out a healer for DPS does is give you more damage to get credit. It does not affect which colour chest you receive - this is all random with higher tier monsters having a greater chance of dropping gold.

Was you in a larger group? If there's 9 parties hitting a mob and each does only 11% of the mobs total HP (Which is nothing really) then I can easily see no chest being awarded to any team due to lack of contribution....this is SE we're talking about.

"In regards to reward distribution, since there are nine parties, while there may be situations where you are uniting with them to fight, the fundamental design is that of a field area, so the concepts are the same. In field areas, the first to attack a monster will secure drops, and those who attack afterwards will be entitled to rewards after dealing a certain amount of damage to the monster’s HP. This same rule will be applied to Exploratory Missions, so we’d like players to team up with other parties and defeat a large number of monsters. However, unlike the FATE system, there is no system in place for earning rewards through generating enmity. If we had this kind of system in place, it would like to situations where players just continuously use Flash to get rewards."

- http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3425558

Was everyone attacking the same target? Or was the zerg fighting 3 or 4 at once, and your dps were split up on all of them?

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

Unless, as has been speculated but not confirmed in other threads, that getting credit is less about damage and more about enmity generation. So Healers, spam those AoE heals, then drop to Cleric for DPS. Tanks, stay in tank stance.

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SE has specifically stated it's about damage and not hate generation, but that doesn't mean your damage counts toward credit if you don't make it on the threat list.

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Originally Posted by Pence

- http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3425558

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No wonder I missed it. Thanks for the link.

The enmity/threat bar not appearing, despite attacking the target, is an issue that has existed since (at least) The Hunt. It pretty much happens when there are too many around the area attacking the same target. The amount of threat or damage you do is irrelevant due to this. That being said, if you are late to the attack of a V and Star rank, just like an S rank Hunt target, you may come across the problem of no threat generation... meaning your actions/damage is registering, but the game is not applying it towards your own credit. The proof of this is the fact that you're not even in combat, despite attacking. I can mount and fly around immediately after attacking a mob that is not registering the action I took (even though the damage has been done). As a healer, this means you can heal with OOC MP regeneration rates. You just won't get any credit for it.

Essentially, you're more of a detriment to your group trying to get credit for someone elses claim by attacking and speeding up the kill simply because the game does not recognize you as being in combat, and the damage you do is registered as an unknown to the encounter lol. Similar to traps doing damage to mobs in places like Qarn HM.

You have to be on point with attacking them. If someone calls out tracks, everyone has to get ready. Number your priority targets. Also, where maybe your group had enough damage for prevous runs, you may have been just above the threshold, so an extra group or two, or groups with more output could be there this time around, forcing you below the threshold.

I think the chest color that drops is random, not based on dps. You just have a better chance of gold dropping as the tier increases. I've seen a couple gold from Speckled Haklaqs.

It has to be a bug or the way the programming handles fights at times. We noticed that even hammering away on mobs sometimes generated no hate. Our MNK/NIN (forgot which) was able to mount & fly half way through smacking away at a mob. That just shouldn't be possible. Most of the other team members are top level raiders so definitely know their jobs. Even when I was in Cleric Stance I couldn't get hate.

Even on mobs we claimed we sometimes didn't get credit at all. Other team leaders in Diadem were shouting they had the same issue.

I'll continue the recommendation that 72 players in an area won't be beneficial to everyone. If this is the case where you're not getting credit try getting another party or two to split off and farm/zerg elsewhere.

I don't think the game is setup to handle 72 players attacking a mob from dot limitations, game stuttering, and as stated lack of player acknowledgement. I will try and establish two farm locations when there's a full instance for future diadem runs.

I completely agree with Dezwaan, I think the game simply can't deal with so many people on one mob. I've not seen the credit/enmity/hate issue arise when 24 people or less are on one mob - three teams, rather than nine!

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

I completely agree with Dezwaan, I think the game simply can't deal with so many people on one mob. I've not seen the credit/enmity/hate issue arise when 24 people or less are on one mob - three teams, rather than nine!

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I have only seen it arise when I am almost certain it is my teams fault. When I have a team with good flow, have yet to see it.

if some of your party weren't even showing on the enmity bar that is why no drop.

The reason is they lacked dps and one person can fail the whole team if they fail to contribute its not a bug at all btw.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

if some of your party weren't even showing on the enmity bar that is why no drop.

The reason is they lacked dps and one person can fail the whole team if they fail to contribute its not a bug at all btw.

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Scathe gets me on the enmity bar as a BLM, and I've blown through 4 AF phases without making it on when there are a ton of people there. It's not dps, it's being one of the first to tag the mob.

But you are right that it's not a bug, it's the programming. I'm sure it was intended that way so you don't have all 9 parties zerging in one spot.

Saw this myself a few times and it's furstrating especially when you have the whole team there from the start and half isn't registered. No chest a few times.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Scathe gets me on the enmity bar as a BLM, and I've blown through 4 AF phases without making it on when there are a ton of people there. It's not dps, it's being one of the first to tag the mob.

But you are right that it's not a bug, it's the programming. I'm sure it was intended that way so you don't have all 9 parties zerging in one spot.

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That's what I meant, it's bad programming that could be argued to be a bug if they actually intended zerging to be possible.

As far as not enough damage to be counted, I have to disagree. We were all hammering a mob, including both healers in CS, & were also the ones to 'claim' the spawn but still no credit. The rest of the team (other than me) have much of Savage down & commented they were in full deeps mode but no credit. Has to be bad design.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

That's what I meant, it's bad programming that could be argued to be a bug if they actually intended zerging to be possible.

As far as not enough damage to be counted, I have to disagree. We were all hammering a mob, including both healers in CS, & were also the ones to 'claim' the spawn but still no credit. The rest of the team (other than me) have much of Savage down & commented they were in full deeps mode but no credit. Has to be bad design.

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Well that's just not true. If you did claim it (red named) you get a chest, regardless of your contribution.

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Originally Posted by Pence

Well that's just not true. If you did claim it (red named) you get a chest, regardless of your contribution.

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As I posted elsewhere, our tank (team leader) stated that our claims were not always resulting in a chest. Another team leader was also claiming the same in shout. I have no reason whatsoever to make it up, unless you can suggest the benefit I'd get out of doing so?

You can "lose" your claim if the person who claimed it dies. Not sure if it still keeps the claim should others in your party still have sufficient hate, but in 21 Diadems I have yet to see a single red claim not drop a chest unless we legitimately lost the claim to the mob. Also, tracks != claims, not sure if perhaps those two who were stating as such were aware of that. You don't get instant claim of a mob you spawn via tracks (although I do feel you should).

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Originally Posted by Loony_BoB

You can "lose" your claim if the person who claimed it dies. Not sure if it still keeps the claim should others in your party still have sufficient hate, but in 21 Diadems I have yet to see a single red claim not drop a chest unless we legitimately lost the claim to the mob. Also, tracks != claims, not sure if perhaps those two who were stating as such were aware of that. You don't get instant claim of a mob you spawn via tracks (although I do feel you should).

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If someone has done something in your party that registers as putting you in combat to that mob prior to the person dying, claim will still be yours. The exception to this are when the bug that was brought up happens, where the game cannot register you as a participant of the battle, regardless of the fact you are actively attacking it or healing people that do have threat on it. And yes, you are right about the chest drop if you have claim. It's a guaranteed thing, unlike full credit on Hunt mobs.

Sounds like low dps to me, our group with 3 dps 2 tanks were able to receive credit on stars during dino zerg mode.

That's the thing. I have had mixed experience. My wife and I went just the two of us (duo) (WAR/SCH) and through the claim system and just staying alive have done better than some full parties I have been in with.

It will take more experience and information to test, but there is probably an HP% threshold a party has to do in order to get credit if the mob isn't claimed. So with three parties if each contribute the same that's 33% of the mobs health. Compare this to all 9 parties in a zerg if it is split evenly that is 11%. One can assume that the threshold is somewhere around 15%.

Tried doing an alliance run in HM last night where we farmed 24 people away from everyone else. The DPS and pulls weren't fast enough in my opinion for 24 to be enough people. I think half the zone or 4-5 parties is probably ideal if a group is lacking or isn't as good as other groups to meet that HP threshold amount.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

The enmity/threat bar not appearing, despite attacking the target, is an issue that has existed since (at least) The Hunt. It pretty much happens when there are too many around the area attacking the same target. The amount of threat or damage you do is irrelevant due to this. That being said, if you are late to the attack of a V and Star rank, just like an S rank Hunt target, you may come across the problem of no threat generation... meaning your actions/damage is registering, but the game is not applying it towards your own credit. The proof of this is the fact that you're not even in combat, despite attacking...

Essentially, you're more of a detriment to your group trying to get credit for someone elses claim by attacking and speeding up the kill simply because the game does not recognize you as being in combat, and the damage you do is registered as an unknown to the encounter lol.

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This i would agree with 100%. Its buggy the way eros explained.

No its not ONLY about the party lacking dps.
That wouldnt explain the least how we get no credits with a default 8 man party (some attacking star a tiny bit late and never ever generate agro), but continue farming very sucessful after 2 dps left seeing how we failed credit. We got credit with 1 t 2 h 3 dd, where before we failed with 1 t 2 h 5 dd. Has little to do with slacking when we are talking about the same party. Maybe the same people just managed to get registered by a quicker fast hit, or because some people left / the overall playernumber registering for the star went down.

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Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru

Sounds like low dps to me, our group with 3 dps 2 tanks were able to receive credit on stars during dino zerg mode.

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No, no. U can dish out enough with 5 people, but fail the next mob with the very same 5 people PLUS 3 others. Its not ONLY about the baddies. There are issues to be adressed D:
We got no credit with 8 people, but with 6. Same run, same people, just 10 minutes later. And another 10 minutes later with 5 because one was dcing. Nobody died, idled or leeched on the 8 man. They just brought in their first shots 3 seconds late.We ended up with just two or three people on the list, although all 8 were fighting it after a short time (still, too late)

The reason many have this impression is: the people you roll with most are generally fast to register on the NM, so they get on the credit list. The others may also do a bit less damage, but whats actually worse is their first hit being to late (awareness/greed/focus, not mere dps!)

It is supposed to be about doing enough damage but there is an underlying problem that only so many people can be on the enmity list for a single mob. Quite a major limitation that needs sorting to be honest, if your party is not registered on the enmity list then no matter how much dmg you do it counts as 0 participation.

You must be this high to ride the loot train. People won't admit it, but I see my fair share of people who can't play their jobs optimally and still expect to get soemthing. At this point we're looking at 210 loot that may be on par with eso/gordian, it's not too much to ask to know how to play your job to meet the dps checks for looting.

That being said though, I'm pretty damn sure that SE did not intend for more than 5 parties seeing in one island farming mobs over and over. Last night in HM we had so many people the mobs were dying too fast and my party was starting to lose out chests on some rank IIIs and even star ranks due to everyone being so greedy on tanking aggro and ignoring the mobs. We eventually had to switch to tiny arms island to have tanky enough monsters for every single party, as well as get our party tank to just dps and offtank adds because the other groups are too stubborn/greedy to do so.

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

It is supposed to be about doing enough damage but there is an underlying problem that only so many people can be on the enmity list for a single mob. Quite a major limitation that needs sorting to be honest, if your party is not registered on the enmity list then no matter how much dmg you do it counts as 0 participation.

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Do you have proof of this? If that was honestly the case, FATEs wouldn't be working and neither would hunts, espesically the latter when I've been there when it was released on 2.0, the monster wouldn't ever render on my screen but I can still tap it with ground targetted AoEs. If what you said was true for 0 partcipation, I wouldn't get the bare minimum for tapping with AoE, let alone full with a decent party (and never mind the fact that this was never a problem, just "early pulls")

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Originally Posted by TiaHeart

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No, no. U can dish out enough with 5 people, but fail the next mob with the very same 5 people PLUS 3 others. Its not ONLY about the baddies. There are issues to be adressed D:
We got no credit with 8 people, but with 6. Same run, same people, just 10 minutes later. And another 10 minutes later with 5 because one was dcing. Nobody died, idled or leeched on the 8 man. They just brought in their first shots 3 seconds late.We ended up with just two or three people on the list, although all 8 were fighting it after a short time (still, too late)

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You need to do X amount of damage to get credit. When there's more people in the area, the boss dies faster and less time to DPS. If you have less people, the dps requirement becomes much tighter when you consider the shorter kill-window. There's a lot of things to consider, whether or not they were actually dpsing (because most people won't admit that they were slacking, or stay silent when I'm calling them out) or debuffs/adds. The other problem is that when you have so many people, there's also the 60 debuff limitation. It really hurts if you a SMN or MCH because good handful of their dps comes from DoTs/wildfire.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You need to do X amount of damage to get credit. When there's more people in the area, the boss dies faster and less time to DPS. If you have less people, the dps requirement becomes much tighter when you consider the shorter kill-window.

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The other night in Diadem, with the same groups present for both NMs, my warrior, my friend's black mage and our ninja were the only 3 people who did enough burst damage to get a threat bar on a Star Rank. We got a gold chest. Immediately after, another S rank was popped, and 6/8 of us had threat bars visible... but no Gold Chest.

There's something else at work - every indicator the game provided suggests that we did better on the second NM than the first, but the rewards don't line up with that. These are good players - no trouble with Hand of Pain, historically had no problems pushing phases in other content - but they're still not "good enough" to reliably hit the threshold?

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Originally Posted by Kyani

The other night in Diadem, ?

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Did you have the first hit on the first nm? Did you get the first hit on the second? You can tell if they had a red or purple hp bar and name.

If appearing on the threat bar had any relation, then anyone that can use provoke can get themselves right on top of the enmity list.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Did you have the first hit on the first nm? Did you get the first hit on the second? You can tell if they had a red or purple hp bar and name.

If appearing on the threat bar had any relation, then anyone that can use provoke can get themselves right on top of the enmity list.

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Nope, purple tag for both, as well as the same number of other parties (and a similar kill speed). These aren't lazy players, either, though they do have a mix of Hive & Antiquated weapons - they're all between i195 and i205. The simplest answer is that my group was riding the threshold, but that doesn't really explain why my group "looked" worse the first time but performed better.

Also, if it is as simple as requiring a certain HP% of damage done, then it actually becomes more important to split groups as the "best" group becomes better geared. Let's assume that "gold" loot is 8% of the boss' health:

Group 1: 15% 2: 14%, 3: 13%, 4: 12%, 5: 11%, 6: 10%, 7: 9%, 8: 8%, 9: 7%

Here, 8 groups get loot, which is still okay. Now, what happens if groups 1-3 all do an additional 2%?

Group 1: 17%, 2: 16%, 3:15%, 4: 11%, 5: 10%, 6: 9%, 7: 8%, 8: 7%, 9: 6%

Two groups definitely don't get loot, and a third might get some. Go up even a little bit more (or, even worse, the threshold is higher than 8), and half the zone is popping S ranks for nothing.

e: Remember, damage is zero-sum - one group being better doesn't make the other group bad, just not as good.

You have to be on the ball for Stars too. If one of your people is still out grabbing adds, reign them in, if dps are slouching, get on them, if your tank isnt the main, make sure they are in dps stance. Healers dpsing as well.

This is the same problem as http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...o-chest-drops/

And more importantly its the same as: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...g-Chest-Credit

Which has been accepted as a bug by development. We'll have to see what exactly they decide to do to fix the problem. Our FC tested the issue notably together in 24 man normal and hard Diadem runs. We confirmed that if you only have three groups all groups will get credit on essentially ever single kill even if you have two members missing (and the other groups have 8). While if you have 6 groups or more groups will start to loose credit, and groups missing a person may get locked out entirely unable to get credit at all. I believe the issue can be observed with four groups, becomes a problem with five groups, and becomes critically bad with 6 groups or more.

The root cause of the issue appears to simply be drops are managed by a static damage threshold which does NOT scale as more groups attack the same mob. A secondary part of the problem is that there is a maximum dot limit on mobs, and this makes certain classes and group compositions extremely sub-optimal WHEN more than 4-6 groups are attacking the same target.

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Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru

Sounds like low dps to me, our group with 3 dps 2 tanks were able to receive credit on stars during dino zerg mode.

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My FC group was only 7 members and for each HNM/NM we downed we got rewarded for it. With one tank and one healer the DPS should be enough to get the contribution for the kill. OP some of your DPS must've been dragging their feet.

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Originally Posted by Kyani

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You're missing some details or opting out on something, because I've never had this problem in any of my diadem HMs. The times I had missed a star rank is when we had deaths within the party or had a split party. I've gotten credit with 5 dps before, but we had used LB and all of our cooldowns, while missing credit with a full party due to deaths or other circumstances. If you had SMNs or MCHs, then their damage would take a nose dive if there's too many people because of the debuff limit of 60 (which also eats up wildfire).

Again, if threat had any correlation, you could just provoke and get on top of the enmnity list. It's the reason why FATE and hunt mobs are immune to provoke since they work off an enmnity count for contribution.

The problem still remains that the damage threshold for credit doesn't seem to change in relation to the amount of players as you said. The smaller the kill window becomes due to the amount of competency/people present. the harder it is to meet that threshold. Other factors like the 60 debuff limit work against obtaining that damage threshold.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You must be this high to ride the loot train...At this point we're looking at 210 loot that may be on par with eso/gordian

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1. Its not only "on par" many diadem items are BiS
2.Well i find it to be sure, the most rewarding, but also actually most fun content ATM. The only other thing that hits my "this is the right level of difficulty, and reward, and challenge, fun etc" button is primaefarm, and with 100+ kills on everything owning every single reward thrice thats kinda meh. Even for those who do raid (and I do not) its still this "weekly" thing. Diadem loot being unlimited, you can play 24/7 and hope to have progress on top of your "just for the fun of it". Some like it, others don't but there sure are aspects that are truely beneficial. I leaped 195 to 208 after the first three days (of playing all day) instead of going "oh hey its tuesday, ill run the weekly raid and cap the weekly eso and then do nothing from wednesday on to return next tuesday, for the next ten weeks!
3. Alternatives. So if you dont want to (or cant) do high tier raiding, are you supposed to only run VA once a week and then go level sideclasses you wont even play in low level dungeons youve run bazillion times while capping tomes (on wednesday)? I like myself diadem more ^.^

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That being said though, I'm pretty damn sure that SE did not intend for more than 5 parties seeing in one island farming mobs over and over

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Maybe, but that defense doesnt work for the S ranks. Even if parties farmed in 3 locations, you would be better off assuming they unite on S rank calls. Allowing 72 people for "hunt" but only 24(?) to register on the same mob is bad, the end. Missing chests from low ranks because its more crowded than the system can handle? Oh noes, my brass! Missing the shot at gold chests? ;(

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Do you have proof of this? If that was honestly the case, FATEs wouldn't be working and neither would hunt

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Maybe OVERWORLD handles this differently because it always allowed more people whereas INSTANCE has been 24 max so you could somehow apply a DIFFERENT SYSTEM (for reasons of less complex coding and/or less ressource consumption? Overworld s ranks seem to "mess up" my game a lot more than any ini does, even diadem). Experience is all the proof i need here for myself, no agronumber, no contribution, no reward. You can even fly off sometimes if you hit a mob but get no agro at all and neither did any of your teammates. If you do get "registered" for fighting it, you cant do that. If everyone gets a quick first hit and a number, its almost autogold. If another of those ps3 players is in the party who wont even have the star load before it reaches 80 percent hp - oh well, gg. Because no matter how much dps he will push out then, it doesnt count any

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You need to do X amount of damage to get credit. When there's more people in the area, the boss dies faster and less time to DPS. If you have less people, the dps requirement becomes much tighter when you consider the shorter kill-window. There's a lot of things to consider

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Im well aware of all that and its correct. Still you also need an agro number to actually credit your dps. With people who are fast you get every single gold even in 5-7 party Sranks. The dps treshhold isnt really high IF your whole team makes it on the list. Thats one reason why people provoke the S rank (they get on the list, others lose their spot) over tanking adds. The other is, well dps. Sure they are "greedy" but they didnt make the rules, they just play along to them. And some people keep ranting about their competitive drives. Its right there, diadem is currently pvpve coated with hunt/fate/rng. But its also pvpve. And less numb than farming fates or low lvl inis for relic *cough cough* xD