Can square enix just put Str and Vit on fending gear?

We shouldn't have to choose between defense and offense just to play our role.

You kinda should have the option to go offensive or defensive.

Where is the logic in that? It's like people want choice, yet when presented with a choice they want everything, oh I have to choose between offense or defense but I want both! Nothing restricts you from getting some STR and some VIT but asking for both on accessories is straight up OP. All the other accessories only have 1 attribute on them so why should tanks get 2? If you are comfortable with a set amount of HP and know that x amount of HP won't burden your healers then fill the rest with STR but that's the thing, it's a bit of trial and error to find what works best for you and quite honestly Tanks are pretty much the only job that gets the ability to actually have some flexibility with their attributes all other jobs are pretty much one attribute will rule them all.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Where is the logic in that? It's like people want choice, yet when presented with a choice they want everything

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Yes but the problem is that fending gear has become irrelevant. You can't play if you have all fending gear anymore. Now i personally don't care that this has to be done, however i just feel like if a tank wearing all fending gear is useless or irrelevant it means theres an issue to begin with.

They are adjusting the Tanks damage formula in 3.2 they said, could have something to do with vit modifier for attack.

We're supposed to be seeing changes in 3.2 to tank damage so you likely won't have to choose between STR and VIT accessories anymore.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

We're supposed to be seeing changes in 3.2 to tank damage so you likely won't have to choose between STR and VIT accessories anymore.

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Thanks for sharing. Glad to know.

I...kind of agree, especially since full vit tanks are completely pointless and not required in later parts of the game because all that HP serves nothing in dungeons (enemies don't hit that hard to begin with), and in raids tanks HAVE to do damage too and having a full VIT tank is usually not viable. Besides, most of the BiS accessories are the penta-melded crafted accessories (which not everyone can obtain: I have to stick with str accessories).
In short, full VIT (which means ignoring STR) gear is not worth it, especially in a game where damage is the only viable option, even on tanks AND healers!

Apparently they are modifying VIT to give damage on tanks in the future...but I don't see a problem on giving tanks both STR and VIT: with the exception of the warrior, most tanks do okay damage overalll and if it's an issue just remove those damage buff like Maim on Warrior, Darkside on DRK and F&F on paladin. They'll have high STR, but still 20% less damage with their tanking stance and if they want to dps, just toggle it off and go damage!

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

You kinda should have the option to go offensive or defensive.

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If anything, my problem is that this only really applies to tanks... I would love it if every Job could make a solid use out of two or more stats... Shame they've just continued to simplify all the stats, to the point where they all only do one thing now... Strength and Dexterity impacting Parry/Block strength and rate respectively wasn't much, but it was better than nothing... Sad to see that go...

I really miss 1.23, where we had two primary stats impacting damage, rather than just the one... Then there are just annoying inconsistencies; Raiton is magic based, Foes Requiem will boost its damage, yet Ninjas Intelligence (which is ones attack magic potency, making me wonder why we have both) does nothing for it... Gearing up in this game is just so dull as a result...

At this point, I don't even think they know what they're doing with gear. It's a complete mess. In FFXI, stats had clearly defined roles, but here they're constantly re-writing them. They want to remove the penta-melded accessories, because they don't want people sticking vitality onto their rings (forgetting that right now, primary stat materia is almost as worthless as elemental for non-accessories). And they want to VIT to offer a damage buff?

This feels like a bandaid on a severed arm. Instead of addressing an issue they're dancing around it. They need a clear focus for this, not some half-hearted stopgap measures.

And please, add intelligence to all the Scholar gear, I shoudn't have to choose to be in cleric stance!


Aye, it's a joke:p

I believe SE will throw us a curve ball later.

We will have to reset our characters in order to do something in the future.

I am just waiting for it lol

Healer gears should have both Mind and Int so they can heal and attack at the same time without using Cleric Stance.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Healer gears should have both Mind and Int so they can heal and attack at the same time without using Cleric Stance.

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That's a completely stupid comparison. Healers aren't dealing damage when they heal. You get max damage AND max healing by going full MND. See where I'm going ? Your stance is off, you're using your GCDs to heal. You can't cast a healing spell and a damage spell at the same time. When you don't need to heal, you instantly switch to DPS stance and go full DPS with maximum attack power until you need to heal again, where you just have to instantly toggle your stance off without delaying a single cast. You then heal again with maximum healing power. With only one stat you get both attack and healing power to their maximum.

Tanks, on the other hand, are still always dealing damage and even need to do so while they're tanking. They don't stop tanking to deal damage. They need both stats at the same time. That's why it's unbalanced. It's the only role that needs two different main stats at the same time. The other problem with this is that VIT on jewelry becomes less and less useful as left side gear progresses. Currently the optimal gear for a tank is full i210 left side with full i210 STR right side. That's not normal. "Tank" accessories (the one we're able to roll on) are currently only useful for progression to help reaching HP thresholds, but are very far from being optimal. And for people like me who got pentamelded crafted accessories, VIT jewelry is completely useless, for the sole reason of it not giving a single bit of STR. That's a problem. Every job in the game get their optimal power with their own jewelry on maximum ilvl. Tanks are the only one that don't. We have to sacrifice a part of our role to reinforce an other part, where every other single role just gets everything at once by just increasing ilvl.

They should either give STR to tank jewelry, or make attack power affected by VIT. Anyway, in 3.2, the way tank damage works will be changed, we'll then see the direction they're going to take.

most tanks seem to do their tanking jobs just fine as it is right now. so their STR and attack potency are enough to maintain aggro.

adding more STR means breaking the game's balance.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

most tanks seem to do their tanking jobs just fine as it is right now. so their STR and attack potency are enough to maintain aggro.

adding more STR means breaking the game's balance.

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Well it seems that you don't understand anything about what is balance. I gave you the arguments, I'm not gonna repeat myself. I never asked for more STR because we're already wearing STR gear anyway as its optimal for us even tho it's not our gear. What I'm asking for is actual tank gear that is optimal and BiS for tanks.

I've been discussing this issue with a friend, and we've come up with different scenarios:

• VIT/STR on Fending accessories
- If the STR is any less than Slaying, it's useless because tanks will still use Slaying
- If the STR replaces a secondary stat, it's useless because tanks will still use Slaying
- If it has full VIT/STR, plus two secondary stats, melee DPS will use Fending instead of Slaying

Sadly, I think that making accessories role-specific is the only way to make tanks use Fending stuff. I think that making VIT more relevant, though, should be the way to go. For example, a tank in full Fending should be able to survive situations a tank in full Slaying shouldn't, like some tank busters.

If tanks are indeed forced to use VIT gear instead of STR, adjustments should be made to their damage output, aggro generation and DPS checks from fights that rely on it. Or maybe their DPS stance can work like a Cleric Stance and swap VIT/STR points when it's up.

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Originally Posted by ShiloEET

Yes but the problem is that fending gear has become irrelevant. You can't play if you have all fending gear anymore. Now i personally don't care that this has to be done, however i just feel like if a tank wearing all fending gear is useless or irrelevant it means theres an issue to begin with.

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You can have str on your vit gear in 3.2
Or Vit on your Str gear

Isn't this suggestion just gonna add heavy imbalance to accessories or not be worth it?

If you add an equal amount if STR to the fending gear, you potentially invalidate STR gear entirely as well as any crafted gear. If you add in a low amount of STR, it's not gonna break the current trend of tanks just using STR gear anyway.

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Originally Posted by Felis

You can have str on your vit gear in 3.2
Or Vit on your Str gear

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Point is: if VIT is irrelevant, why would I meld VIT when I can meld Crit, for example?

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If tanks are indeed forced to use VIT gear instead of STR, adjustments should be made to their damage output, aggro generation and DPS checks from fights that rely on it. Or maybe their DPS stance can work like a Cleric Stance and swap VIT/STR points when it's up.

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Maybe have VIT increase pdef and mdef in a sort of exponential way and/or make VIT buff certain cooldowns directly that are currently affected by STR. Dps on tanks shouldn't be as extreme as it is now (mainly on Warriors in dps stance, who can outdo some single target dps with same gear and skill), or they're essentially filling 2 roles. What would stop a party going 6 Warriors and 2 healers (for mainly single target fights, not A2S) if Warriors remain as OP as now? They'd have unkillable dps, diamond cannons instead of glass cannons.

Yeah I disagree with OP. I want more variety in style choice. And more variety in how things are tackled. And for these things to be situationally better, so there is a bigger gap between people who work hard to understand their job and people who wing it

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

(mainly on Warriors in dps stance, who can outdo some single target dps with same gear and skill)

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If a WAR is outDPSing an actual DPS with the same level of gear, I'm sorry to say that the DPS is quite bad at playing his job. Unless they died or have been screwed by the mechanics during the entire fight, a DPS playing its job right should end the fight above the WAR, even a BRD/MCH.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

Yeah I disagree with OP. I want more variety in style choice. And more variety in how things are tackled. And for these things to be situationally better, so there is a bigger gap between people who work hard to understand their job and people who wing it

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If you want more variety in style choice, ask them to add variety to every job in the game. Currently only tanks have that "variety" and it causes imbalance.

So... tanks just want to do as much damage as DPS jobs while still have full defense?

we don't need DPS then. just make a party of 6 tanks and 2 healers. If the main tank screw it up, we'll have 5 off-tanks that can switch the role anytime.

Do you even care about the game's balance or you just want your job to be stronger?

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

If you want more variety in style choice, ask them to add variety to every job in the game. Currently only tanks have that "variety" and it causes imbalance.

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Stats meaning more than one linear things would fix a lot of that. Why can't a paladin wear more MND so their cures can mean something? The negative is that they can't dPS while self healing but then that could lead to giving healers a style change where they could do more DPS. You can go back to ignoring mind and just be full damage reduction.

I'm not gonna act like this is easy to balance, but I'd rather have a imbalance choice, than no choice at all because your best options are already laid out for you.

Vit isn't irrelevant. That's a disingenuous statement. It's just less relevant after a certain point (hp meta). If vit were irrelevant then pentamelds wouldn't be bis. even at this point you arn't going into A3S or A4S with a full slaying set and expecting to clear. So vit very much does have value up to a certain point, but after that it losses value.

Personally I like the gearing options for tanks. It's the only role that has some variables when it comes to gearing outside of just mindlessly picking the highest ilvl and meeting an acc cap.

Tanks dont really have a "choice" as they will be forced by the Content and/or the Community to take a certain path just like the current situation.
Vit would be more relevant if it raises your pDef and mDef, then you would have a real choice between Def or Offense Tank.
And people dont buy Pentamelded fending gear because of the option to do so, its just they to go if you want to be viable at the current End Content and either go slaying or fending doesnt give you the benefits a pentamelded acc give.

Better change would be to increase "tank focused" damage by say 25% (so auto-attacks, cleaves, tank busters) and then just put "Damage Taken -5%" on all fending accessories.

That way you're actually sacrificing survivablity to increase your damage. As it stands nothing in this game requires more than 17-18k HP, even AS4, and that figure is too easily attainable.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

nonsense

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Even with full STR, the best tank in the game isn't doing the same damage as a DPS unless the DPS is bad. A full STR tank can do about 75-80% of a DPS's DPS if both are going full HAM. If it was the case, we would already be doing parties of 6 tanks and 2 healers, but we don't, even if most savage tanks are already able to tank A3 and A4 with 4-5 STR i210 accessories. I don't want my role to be stronger, in fact I wouldn't care if SE reduced all of our potencies to compensate, I just want to be able to get my optimal gear from what has been first intended for my job instead of this situation where we have to greed on melee DPS's accessories or buy them with tokens. And unless they put STR on our jewelry or make VIT relevant enough to make us focus on it for BiS gear, it will not be the case. I haven't used any Fending accessory since SCoB when I was using the crafted i90 Ruby set with VIT melds (I only used some VIT accessories at the beginning of Savage, but quickly switched to 3 i150 Pentamelds + 2 i210 STR). It's been quite a long time now and we're the only role with this problem.

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Originally Posted by ShiloEET

We shouldn't have to choose between defense and offense just to play our role.

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No, they should fix the stats so that tanks have to be geared like tanks instead of damage dealers.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

You kinda should have the option to go offensive or defensive.

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In a different kind of game, I would agree with you - but FFXIV has never been about flexibility. FFXIV is about a clear, unambiguous ideal we can realize and approach through rigorous measurement.

Content is designed with the following in mind: a minimum number of GCDs executed in a certain period of time with minimum player parameters. Once a group reaches the minimum HP parameter and the minimum healing parameter, the remaining parameter is the so-called DPS check. Superfluous healing and HP have no benefit so increased DPS is the logical choice; the most effective approach has been to outfit tanks with STR gear.

Experience reveals the minimum healing/HP parameters are low while DPS parameters are very high, so by the game's own design Fending gear is inherently less valuable than Slaying.

You could say superfluous HP/healing are training wheels and the transition to DPS gear is the mark of a PT ready to clear. This is not a very compelling choice, though. Tanks can go into content with DPS gear and clear it with the bar set that high from the start. You'll probably have an easier time clearing, since healers can tune their GCDs with tank HP X in mind.

So at worst you have completely useless endgame gear that clogs your drop pool, and at best you have endgame gear with an even shorter life cycle than the ilvl table it's part of.

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Originally Posted by Felis

You can have str on your vit gear in 3.2
Or Vit on your Str gear

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their makinhg it so you can't penta meld 1 stat like full str on vit or full vit on str only the sloted parts canb have these stats after that they don't count.


@ thread

i agree with this depending the changes in 3.2 with the above i think a mix of both, just male fending gear tank only vs "all classes" tanks are the only role that rely on 2 stats. Str and Vit. They need to output dmg as well as intake dmg. other classes don't need this and rely on 1 stats to do their roll. Unless SE changes vit to be tank dmg modifier, then thats what it needed to happen.

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Originally Posted by Mitsuhide

Tanks dont really have a "choice" as they will be forced by the Content and/or the Community to take a certain path just like the current situation.
Vit would be more relevant if it raises your pDef and mDef, then you would have a real choice between Def or Offense Tank.
And people dont buy Pentamelded fending gear because of the option to do so, its just they to go if you want to be viable at the current End Content and either go slaying or fending doesnt give you the benefits a pentamelded acc give.

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I absolutely do have a choice. I choose different setups depending on the needs and vit necessity of the fight. When learning I lean towards higher vit, after clearing and learning i genrally go towards slaying/penta. Once we get it down enough I push it with as much vit as I can. At this point the dps are geared enough for me to go 100% vit if I wanted to. The only time when there is no choice is on the bleeding edge of content and we are well passed that at this point. when we were going for the first week clear of A1S I absolutely went with the penta set.

And honestly raising Pdef and Mdef would literally have no affect on vit. The HP meta is the only reason it's relevant. After accounting for the tank buster and preceding auto attacks, str will always out value defense from a raid perspective unless the damage of the fights are severely ramped up.

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Even with full STR, the best tank in the game isn't doing the same damage as a DPS unless the DPS is bad. A full STR tank can do about 75-80% of a DPS's DPS if both are going full HAM.

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I'm i197 Summoner, and my friend i203 WAR, in dps stance, can do as much as me single target in Fractal (900-1000 dps on bosses). Sure on aoe they lose out (do 600 to my 2200), and Summoner isn't that great single target, but yeah WAR can still 'replace' a Summoner in fights where Summoner isn't aoeing. Haven't seen a Scholar pushing 1000 dps yet.

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Tanks can go into content with DPS gear and clear it with the bar set that high from the start. You'll probably have an easier time clearing, since healers can tune their GCDs with tank HP X in mind.

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But the tank will have say, i210 leftside avg going into content dropping i240 leftside, their HP would be X-3k maybe, so not enough initially. Like for example, going into 3.2, supposing people go outright with their i210 avg gear, without getting crafted or tome stuff first, their HP would be much lower than it'll eventually be with better weapon/body/legs and other leftside parts, even if they never get VIT on accessories

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

I'm i197 Summoner, and my friend i203 WAR, in dps stance, can do as much as me single target in Fractal (900-1000 dps on bosses). Sure on aoe they lose out (do 600 to my 2200), and Summoner isn't that great single target, but yeah WAR can still 'replace' a Summoner in fights where Summoner isn't aoeing. Haven't seen a Scholar pushing 1000 dps yet.

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I'm sorry to tell you that you're bad at SMN. At i197 you should do above 1200-1300 DPS on single target bosses. And on AoE your WAR is bad, 600 is the AoE DPS of a PLD using Flash, Circle of Scorn and some Goring Blade combos while in Shield Oath. A WAR can pull above 2200 in a short AoE fight, and I will grant you that this is super high for a tank, but for sustained AoE fights like A2S, they balance out and go back to less DPS than a DPS's DPS (that's a lot of DPS).

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I'm sorry to tell you that you're bad at SMN. At i197 you should do above 1200-1300 DPS on single target bosses.

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Only seen a Dragoon going above 1150 (also, a higher than i200 DRG). My top has been 1050 on the Curator. I never did Savage so I don't have numbers, but the Oppressor having 2 means a lot more dps on Summoner (dots running on both at once). I saw a Summoner geared with the exact same HP as me when I was at i193. And they did worse than me. Never seen a BLM top my single either. I know it's possible to hit it, but I doubt below 1200 single target is bad.

Also the WAR in question can't do super dps when he pulls 15 mobs, if he wants to keep enmity on them. Or I'll pull half of them without trying and we wipe.

Is it a enmity issue? Why do tanks need to do dmg? Losing agro?

I haven't done any of the new primals or raids yet since I hit 60, but I was holding off geared DPS in a dungeon just fine.

Or is it that boss fights are so tightly balanced you need the tank dmg to kill it?

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A WAR can pull above 2200 in a short AoE fight, and I will grant you that this is super high for a tank, but for sustained AoE fights like A2S, they balance out and go back to less DPS than a DPS's DPS (that's a lot of DPS).

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In Fractal I can do 2800 aoe dps. But if I was Baning a Vulnerability debuff, I could probably hit 4000 or something. You can't count stuff that basically overmultiplies damage in a specific fight.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

Only seen a Dragoon going above 1150 (also, a higher than i200 DRG). My top has been 1050 on the Curator. I never did Savage so I don't have numbers, but the Oppressor having 2 means a lot more dps on Summoner (dots running on both at once). I saw a Summoner geared with the exact same HP as me when I was at i193. And they did worse than me. Never seen a BLM top my single either. I know it's possible to hit it, but I doubt below 1200 single target is bad.

Also the WAR in question can't do super dps when he pulls 15 mobs, if he wants to keep enmity on them. Or I'll pull half of them without trying and we wipe.

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Man, with 15 mobs the DPS i can do as WAR is insane, while i hold aggro on EVERYTHING. Sounds like he needs a bit of training.