I've heard nothing but new content coming out. Has there been any news about changes,tweaks, or QOL changes to some of the jobs?
Has there been any mentioning of job changes for 3.1?
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10-19-2015, 02:11 PMElkyHas there been any mentioning of job changes for 3.1?
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10-19-2015, 02:14 PMRiceisNiceThe only thing I can recall is that they mentioned mudra lag and that they've acknowledged paladin's current situation with end game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elky
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10-19-2015, 02:15 PMPArcher
All we know for sure is that Mundras are getting changed somehow. Beyond that, we dont know, and have to assume its minor, not all that gamebreaking changes (QoL and small balances) rather than anything major (like 2.1 and WAR) since they havent said anything.
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10-19-2015, 02:19 PMPArcherExcept that has more to do with fight design rather than job balance. DRK is similarly weak against physical-only fights as PLD with magic, but with more DPS. Theyll probably give PLD a little more DPS, but likely wont change it too much. Physical fights PLD is still great, theyre just the worst choice for magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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10-19-2015, 02:27 PMRiceisNiceWhich is still a mention of a possible change to the job, adjustment or whatever. Even with better physical mitigation, a lot of the cutting edge-progression encourages so much on raid dps (including tank and healers), that DRK will still inevitable end up being the better choice unless paladin has relatively the same main-tank dps, or sword oath outdamages darkside if no tank stance is considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
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10-19-2015, 03:20 PMPArcherThey havent said anything about it though lol. Pure speculation still.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Thats actually the kind of problem I have with many main PLD (esp those who have been PLD since 2.0) Ive talked to. They want to be the #1 tank again, the other two be damned. Sword Oath should not outdamage Darkside (or Deliverance), unless PLD get a decent defense nerf (how about making Hallowed 7 seconds long for starters, and no more chain stuns?). That is the big thing about PLD, as said by the devs; physical damage mitigation. The big issue is that the fights do not cater to it (or use physical damage like A4).Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Yes, PLD need more DPS. But they do not, and should not, be the top. At least not without nerfing their strengths...which kinda ruins the whole point of being a PLD in the first place.
They could use an AoE DPS GDC too, but what useful skill will you give up for it? -
10-19-2015, 04:02 PMBrian_
They haven't said anything specific. They've said that PLD skills will be adjusted in 3.1.
And to be completely honest, it really sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about. For one, most intelligent PLDs will be glad to lose stun locking. It has very niche uses in raid content and forces PLD's stun to cost 150 TP and a GCD albeit with no CD. Compare that to WAR or DRK 0 TP OGCD stuns with a short CD and I'm sure most PLDs would much rather have that if flavor and diversity weren't a concern.
So, what strengths are you even talking about? Apparently, the other tanks don't need to give up anything much for their strengths, but when people judge PLDs, they have to make sacrifices.
I don't even main PLD anymore and I think they desperately need some help. It's sad how bad they are and it's only loosely connected to the nature of the content. -
10-19-2015, 04:16 PMAshkendorThis seems like a total ass-pull statement to me. If you read the tank forums and the stuff that's been put out on reddit, most Paladins just want the class to be a viable choice again. Right now, WAR is in a great spot -- too great, actually. With the current skill setup, every raid is guaranteed to have a WAR, while DRK and PLD have to duke it out for the other slot. It's completely imbalanced and pretty unfair to everyone except warriors. PLD/DRK isn't really a thing, and PLD/WAR is only marginally a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
What strengths? Warrior and DRK mitigate just as well (better in a lot of cases), with the exception of 10 seconds every 7 minutes. That's not even getting to the fact that being the "defense tank" is pointless when the overall meta is "moar deeps."Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
Seriously, when I see WARs whine that PLDs don't need help, it makes me think they're either completely clueless or are genuinely scared to lose their guaranteed raid slot. God forbid that all three tanks are actually a viable choice for any content. -.- -
10-19-2015, 04:49 PMSynestraYes and no, well in PvE i would gladly lose chain-stunnign but in PvP its fucking awesome to have. Tbh it feels like PLD is made for PvP, because all those "useless" skills it has have high usage uptime in PvP(Tempered Will, Cover, Shield Swipe, Blind from Flash etc..)but it kinda makes sense as PLD's branches off from GLADIATOR afterall :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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10-19-2015, 10:57 PMAdireVery much in agreement with this statement. PLD DPS should not come close to WAR DPS, but should do more than they do currently without the clunky, annoying stance system they have. WAR is more difficult to play correctly and less forgiving of CD mismanagement, so there's that reason, and PLD should retain its identity and playstyle. SE should just stop with their DPS check fascination for fights. We have more than enough of those now. Make some fights where the tankbusters hit so hard and in sync with PLD's CDs that PLDs survive much more reliably than WARs, but DPS checks are so non-existant that it gives raids a reason to use Paladin's strengths, without making it necessary for every Paladin to push out big DPS. Actually make some fights that satisfy people who like more traditional tanking. Make it so that PLD's DPS disadvantage is worth taking for their mitigation advantages. Whether this means different fights or changes to PLD's defensive capabilities, either way it should happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
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10-19-2015, 11:02 PMadn
You can bet on SMN/AST/WAR changes in PVP. SMN and AST are almost certain, WAR is more iffy.
Aside from that, SE is pretty tight lipped about class changes. -
10-19-2015, 11:16 PMRiceisNiceHow is it nesssescarly more "difficult" let alone "less forgiving"? The former is rather subjective, but warrior's mitigation CDs aren't too that far off of paladins and healing the two tanks are more-or-less the same when you boil down to effective healing/hp and equal gearQuote:
Originally Posted by Adire
It's a tight line to walk. When you start making content do so much damage that you need a paladin as the to-go maintank, DRK falls out in favor. And for the record, DRKs have functionally the same mitigation abilities to survive tank busters as paladins do minus the shield, and warrior more-or-less the same timers for their own mitigations through vengence, ToB and raw intuition if it's a physical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
People are bringing up paladin's "strengths" when there honestly isn't much to go off of. They have HG that comes with a whooping 7 minute cooldown. They're not all that much better than DRK or even WAR when it comes to eating tankbusters that come at regular intervals (unless you want to factor in shield blocking, which even then becomes random/gimmicky and it's effectiveness is up in the air because of warrior's raw intuition) Stun locking drains into your TP more than anything (and PLDs still don't have the means to manage it or otherwise mitigate it's consumption) and is not on the oGCD, making it rather cumbersome for on-the-spot interrupts for boss mechanics. Even if you were to make fights more oriented on tank survival, DRK/WAR aren't too far off on that regard compared to PLD, although warrior has the better means of offtanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
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10-19-2015, 11:36 PMSpookyGhosthttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Stance-on-PldQuote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
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10-20-2015, 01:12 AMKingOfAbyss
Just make raids with all of the jobs created so far mandatory, so we'll have 1 WAR, 1 PLD, 1 DRK, 1 WHM, 1 SCH, 1 AST, 1 BLM, 1 SMN, 1 BRD, 1 MCH, 1 MNK, 1 DRG, 1 NIN.
Pretty sure that Savage will be a thing of the past ;) -
10-20-2015, 01:30 AMAshkendorThis just exchanges one glaring problem for another, though. If you make it so nobody but a PLD can reliably survive the tank busters, you end up with PLD having a guaranteed slot in that particular raid. Contrary to popular belief, that's not what we're looking for here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
Let's face it - when you get down to it, high DPS is a defensive capability as well. The faster it dies, the less damage it does. -
10-20-2015, 02:49 AMCosmicKirbyThis is pretty much exactly why I'm hoping that next Xpac they toss in a competitive Off-tank. I'm fine with DRK and PLD competing for a MT slot, but WAR is currently sitting in a completely uncontested Off-tank slot. Maybe make Samurai an Off-tank similar to War? With pretty darn high DPS abilities, but can also tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
Iunno, it seems that Square's philosophy with what to add in HW was to add classes that compete with raid slots that had none before. (BRD vs MCH, and AST in theory competing with either SCH or WHM based on stance). -
10-20-2015, 02:53 AModie
I'm waiting for Holy to get nerfed again.
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10-20-2015, 02:55 AMMilesSaintboroguh...Why? It got nerfed to the ground several times already. Anymore and you might as well just get rid of the spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by odie
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10-20-2015, 02:57 AModieI know. as a White Mage I would never actually be serious about wanting Holy nerfed. Believe me, i miss 2.0 Holy... my initial post was being sarcastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
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10-20-2015, 03:29 AMDualgunner
I heard a rumor that they were planning to nerf DRG. Tell me this isn't true D:
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10-20-2015, 03:38 AMAlahraI wouldn't think it is. MNK is now above DRG in raw personal DPS, which is about even given DRG's Battle Litany buff. They don't seem to have a good reason to nerf DRG at present.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
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10-20-2015, 03:51 AMKingOfAbyss
If they continue to nerf everything to cater to casuals (I am now ^^), to the point that even casuals find it too easy (like lots in the game already), they'll lose the game.
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10-20-2015, 04:32 AMRiceisNiceDRG is still the only job that brings a piercing debuff to the table, combine that with BRD/MCH being a given in any decent party composition and DRG is in a really good spot. Honestly the three melees at the moment are fairly close (with ninja being incredibly under represented, but otherwise has a place in party comps), but a DRG with MNK/NIN is still better than a MNK with NIN setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
They need to take a look at the content they're designing. Alexander normal is too easy since it was made for DF, while savage busts people's stones if they aren't hardcore into raiding.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss
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10-20-2015, 04:37 AMAdireIt's more difficult and less forgiving because one of WAR's major mitigation skills (Inner Beast) is not available at the click of a button like all of Paladin's many mitigation skills. You have to figure out if you have time to use stacks for something like fel cleave or not before you need them for inner beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
It's more difficult and less forgiving because WAR's other mitigation skills with the exception of Vengeance (which is equivalent to shield oath + rampart, with Rampart having a shorter cooldown advantage over Vengeance) and Thrill of Battle, WAR's mitigation skills are indirect and come at costs. Timing of them is far more crucial, and not as simple as "click and forget" like PLD's. A WAR typically has to decide on either sacrificing Eye for Path, or Path for Eye. A bad decision there = lost mitigation. Equilibrium is only beneficial after damage has been taken, not before it, and comes at the cost of losing a 200 TP regen.
It's more difficult and less forgiving because with how WAR's stance dancing works, you have to allow time to pass before you can switch stances again. PLD's stance switching is a blessing and a curse, more often a curse than a blessing imo, but with regards to switching faster, PLD has the advantage of ease. 1 GCD is shorter than the time WARs have to wait to switch after switching.
Being that WAR's tank stance is also not direct mitigation, it makes WAR's direction mitigation skills all the more important to use at the right times as well. If a tank buster is going to kill a WAR with the bonus health they have (this and healing received boost only do so much against spike damage), popping a direct mitigation cooldown like Vengeance, which has a much tighter requirement for its use than rotating Sentinel and Rampart and such, and using Inner Beast is the only answer. Inner Beast must be up at the right time, which is something a WAR has to keep in mind at all times when managing stacks and stance timing and balancing Eye/Path, and failing that, a WAR is in deep trouble due to essentially having no added defense against a large spike in damage.
I've played both PLD and WAR extensively. I strongly agree with the community's seeming consensus that PLD is quite easier to play than WAR.
Not really. A fight could be designed to where it was beneficial to have a WAR MT, then swap to PLD for easier mitigation of tank busters, then back to WAR MT. All it takes is a little creativity. It's been done in other games before, it's not impossible to get something other than dps check dps check dps check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
Besides, in a game where we can play every single job on one character, it should open up things like this to being more flexible. In many games, you can only play one class per character, and all classes of a role have strengths and weaknesses. Homogenization of jobs is not necessary there, why should it be here when we can alternate our jobs with such ease? -
10-20-2015, 04:45 AMRiceisNiceSo you've kicked DRK out of the curb then. In which case,Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
And even then, a warrior is just as capable of taking tank busters as much as a paladin, if not better if it's on a set interval because they can always have inner beast ready. If it's a physical skill that requires blocking, parry works just as well (with warriors having raw intuition). Both jobs can maintank, but warrior does a better job at off tanking (or off tank dpsing specifically) that you'd dont want them to be in the MT spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
It's not impossible to make something not be strict on dps check, but again,
More damage while being able to survive the fight means the fight goes by faster, phases get pushe faster, and less healing is needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
While the tanks are interchangeable, it's not necessarily the case now because eso gear is not shared between them. The reasoning to choosing a class/job is ultimately the preference of playstyle and fitting party compositions (you avoid doubling up) -
10-20-2015, 05:04 AMAdireI haven't kicked DRK to the curb because I haven't been discussing it in the first place. I'd rather not talk about a job I'm not all that familiar with, and with regards to the discussion we've been having between us, discussing DRK is a moot point. The main focus of our discussion is why PLD does or does not necessarily need to be on par with the other tanks in damage terms, and how it can be made viable and even optimal to raids in its mitigation capabilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
And I don't know why you keep mentioning that, I'm well aware that more dps > unneeded extra mitigation. No need to preach to the choir.
I am simply saying, there are ways to improve PLD as a defensive tank, and ways to implement it as such that raids have a better reason to bring them. Shifting focus away from DPS checks and bringing focus to tank survivability through various forms of damage is one way, it's done in many a game. Having more fights where PLD's direct mitigation can shine more would even out the playing field just fine, without sacrificing job diversity. It's done elsewhere and works great, why can't it and shouldn't it be done here? It's not uncommon at all in other games to see certain tanks with more DPS potential, certain tanks with more mitigation potential, and content that plays to both's strengths and encourages both to be present. -
10-20-2015, 05:04 AMNorthernLadMSP
I hope we see the change that SE initially mentioned about AST's Celestial Opposition.