/p Blood Price used, WHMs do not use Holy for 15 seconds <se.1>

I feel like this is gonna get annoying real fast....

Or do not use blood price until your targets are stun immune.

Dear lord my wife does this all the time! lol. I swear she does it as soon as I pop lol.

I never make macros like this cause they are just obnoxious. A good whm will wait 15 seconds for you to finish aoeing and then go ham. This is dps and enmity efficient, the whm has nothing to gain from fighting a drk on this.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

A good whm will wait 15 seconds for you to finish aoeing and then go ham. This is dps and enmity efficient, the whm has nothing to gain from fighting a drk on this.

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You'd be surprised how many not good WHM you run into in DF though. That's why people make macros like this, because they're sick of healers who just barely do their job. It happens to me a lot as a WAR, but I'm geared enough that it doesn't matter as much.

Why make your WHM wait 15 seconds to help kill the pack of mobs faster? So you can have the same mana you started the pull with? If anything a WHM who is actually dpsing is the good whm, not the other way around. Using Unleash on the pull as you would normally is enough to hold threat. And even if they got aggro, the mobs will be stunned anyway and you should be using your aoe threat skill anyway so its a non issue.

In short, the macro is as useless and obnoxious as the berserk/pacify macros. Wait for the mobs to become stun immune then pop Blood price.

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Originally Posted by Jihara

In short, the macro is as useless and obnoxious as the berserk/pacify macros.

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http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ft-LOumBOlA/hqdefault.jpg

Hmmmm. Does anyone know definitively which is more dps? The drk doing whatever it is they do during blood price or a WHM swift aero - pof holy spam - assize? Cause I'm thinking the WHM is gonna destroy the drk dps hands down making this argument completely pointless. To say the WHM is bad not waiting for blood price to fall off is so ridiculous. Learn to manage your mana better going into the pull? If I see this macro in df I'm pretty much gonna rofl.

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Originally Posted by echoica

Hmmmm. Does anyone know definitively which is more dps? The drk doing whatever it is they do during blood price or a WHM swift aero - pof holy spam - assize? Cause I'm thinking the WHM is gonna destroy the drk dps hands down making this argument completely pointless. To say the WHM is bad not waiting for blood price to fall off is so ridiculous. Learn to manage your mana better going into the pull? If I see this macro in df I'm pretty much gonna rofl.

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Ooops typos - on phone can't edit. That's supposed to be aero 3 and Pom

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Originally Posted by Jihara

Why make your WHM wait 15 seconds to help kill the pack of mobs faster? So you can have the same mana you started the pull with? If anything a WHM who is actually dpsing is the good whm, not the other way around. Using Unleash on the pull as you would normally is enough to hold threat. And even if they got aggro, the mobs will be stunned anyway and you should be using your aoe threat skill anyway so its a non issue.

In short, the macro is as useless and obnoxious as the berserk/pacify macros. Wait for the mobs to become stun immune then pop Blood price.

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Originally Posted by echoica

Hmmmm. Does anyone know definitively which is more dps? The drk doing whatever it is they do during blood price or a WHM swift aero - pof holy spam - assize? Cause I'm thinking the WHM is gonna destroy the drk dps hands down making this argument completely pointless. To say the WHM is bad not waiting for blood price to fall off is so ridiculous. Learn to manage your mana better going into the pull? If I see this macro in df I'm pretty much gonna rofl.

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I pull 8 mobs. Whm waits 15 seconds to start holying. I aoe/get hate/self heal with abyssal drain, after 15 seconds whm begins holy spam.

I pull 8 mobs, whm starts holying. I can't aoe properly or establish a solid lead in hate, which i need if a whm is gonna be holying. When they're done, im close to mp floor, have done crap damage, and probably lost hate on a mob or two.

In the former scenario, we both get huge aoe deeps, i keep hate, stuff dies. In the latter scenario, i cant do proper damage or hate just so the whm could holy 15s earlier, and stuff takes longer to die.

Personally, I'd make a deal with the DRK: He stops using that god-damn annoying macro and I'll stop holying ASAP in turn.

Really, I don't even care who's "right" in that situation. Starting a fight for my ego just isn't worth it.

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Originally Posted by echoica

Hmmmm. Does anyone know definitively which is more dps? The drk doing whatever it is they do during blood price or a WHM swift aero - pof holy spam - assize? Cause I'm thinking the WHM is gonna destroy the drk dps hands down making this argument completely pointless. To say the WHM is bad not waiting for blood price to fall off is so ridiculous. Learn to manage your mana better going into the pull? If I see this macro in df I'm pretty much gonna rofl.

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I think it depends on the amount of Mobs there is since holy was nerfed in HW,

not to mention DA+DP then Absyall drain spam oh and also Salted Earth so I think DRK might just have the edge a little.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

not to mention DA+DP then Absyall drain spam oh and also Salted Earth so I think DRK might just have the edge a little.

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Its not about who has the edge its about the whm being a team player and allowing us both to get off a proper aoe burst. The whm has nothing to gain and the drk has a lot to lose so any decent player should allow 15s to pass instead of intentionally gimping the tank. But maybe thats just me, i do big pulls with a lot of AD spam.

so if i stay there only healing it's wrong? and if i do dps it's also wrong? awesome... c.c

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Originally Posted by Tint

so if i stay there only healing it's wrong? and if i do dps it's also wrong? awesome... c.c

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Its really not too complicated. Every good drk doing big aoe pulls is going to pop blood price and be visibly aoeing for the next 10-15 seconds and the polite thing to do is not be throwing out aoe stuns for that very short period of time. This really only precludes using holy and nothing else (assize, aero 3, etc.) Really not too much to ask. If you dont care about tank aoe queue with a pld ;)

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Personally, I'd make a deal with the DRK: He stops using that god-damn annoying macro and I'll stop holying ASAP in turn.

Really, I don't even care who's "right" in that situation. Starting a fight for my ego just isn't worth it.

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Not reacting to what your tank does is...BAD. Stop being bad.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I pull 8 mobs. Whm waits 15 seconds to start holying. I aoe/get hate/self heal with abyssal drain, after 15 seconds whm begins holy spam.

I pull 8 mobs, whm starts holying. I can't aoe properly or establish a solid lead in hate, which i need if a whm is gonna be holying. When they're done, im close to mp floor, have done crap damage, and probably lost hate on a mob or two.

In the former scenario, we both get huge aoe deeps, i keep hate, stuff dies. In the latter scenario, i cant do proper damage or hate just so the whm could holy 15s earlier, and stuff takes longer to die.

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Sorry this is dumb, ideally you whm should pop shroud at some point and if you cant get hate after that then you should probably consider a different class.

Seriously git gud and wait until the mobs are stun locked and the mobs will die a lot faster.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

Not reacting to what your tank does is...BAD. Stop being bad.

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world doesn't revolve around tanks, healers play as much of a role to a party as a tank does

or you know, you could try queueing with a AST or SCH

Holy is between 110 and 220 potency on each mob (b/c Cleric Stance is +10%). Plus it can be buffed with PoM and allows your WHM to cast Aero III with you taking no damage (or Regen to tick if they open with Aero or w/e). Unleash is 100, switching for AD is only 20 potency more, and getting DA for your DP is only 100.

Why would you not wait to use Blood Price? You can either have Holy the entire time and your own DPS, or you can not have Holy for 15s (5 casts worth!) It seems like a pretty obvious choice to me. You still have Sole Survivor and Carve&Split (which is not worth DAing if you are doing really big pulls) if they're dying too fast so you don't start the next pull dry.

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Originally Posted by ViDare

Sorry this is dumb, ideally you whm should pop shroud at some point and if you cant get hate after that then you should probably consider a different class.

Seriously git gud and wait until the mobs are stun locked and the mobs will die a lot faster.

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Or, you know, the WHM could git gud & stop being impatient...

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Originally Posted by ViDare

world doesn't revolve around tanks, healers play as much of a role to a party as a tank does

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Tanks control the battle by pulling and such. If you cater to your tank's needs, as a healer, everyone tends to have a better time. If you don't, then everyone is pissy. Get over yourself, bud.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

Or, you know, the WHM could git gud & stop being impatient...

Tanks control the battle by pulling and such. If you cater to your tank's needs, as a healer, everyone tends to have a better time. If you don't, then everyone is pissy. Get over yourself, bud.

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ugh please half the time im wishing you guys would pull more so i could actually cure instead of sitting there with my finger up my butt waiting to dps because your precious blood price.

face it as a whm i contribute more to dps than your abyssal drain or unlease in large groups, my holy even fully nerfed does more damage to all the mobs than your unlease and on 3 mobs beats your abyssal drain, the stun lets me dps without having to worry about you taking much damage so cry me a river

You can bet like someone above said, if i see this macro in df i'm going to rofl, then proceed to holy like 7 times in a row.

As a warrior main with Drk and Whm also leveled to 60 I don't get how this is a big thing. If the mobs are stunned you could put off blood price for a few seconds and none of your aggro gen should change at all, because you don't have to DA AD. the only way you wind up with crap aggro gen is if you pop blood price and then go about your autopilot rotation without watching your party. being a team player isn't a one way street, everyone should react and adapt to what others are doing and if you need to be pampered with obnoxious macros you're still an immature player.

Love that someone posted "git gud" in response to warrior macros being obnoxious as hell. With the right skillspeed you're only losing 1 gcd to pacification. Instead of crying to your healer to babysit you because you're scared you'll lose aggro, how about *YOU* "git gud"?

"If you dont care about tank aoe queue with a pld "

Boy, you don't know how many times I prayed to the Twelve to get me Paladins on my roulettes.

You didn't answer the core question tho. Who does more aoe damage? Also if you are having issues with aggro put on grit, adjust your rotation or get better gear. I know WHM is beastly but cmon it's your job.

I don't even holy much anymore tbh. I see better returns dotting aero 2/3 and stone 3 with assize. Holy uses too much mana for the less damage it does now.

Forgot to "reply with quotes" above. So much fail ;S

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

In the former scenario, we both get huge aoe deeps, i keep hate, stuff dies. In the latter scenario, i cant do proper damage or hate just so the whm could holy 15s earlier, and stuff takes longer to die.

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Just saying, yall be getting your ass whipped pretty bad until we holy.

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Originally Posted by echoica

You didn't answer the core question tho. Who does more aoe damage? Also if you are having issues with aggro put on grit, adjust your rotation or get better gear. I know WHM is beastly but cmon it's your job.

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I don't see why this matters. At all. If you have played dark and had a WHM doing this you would know the pain.

It isn't just about that pull... it's about the next ones afterwards. (Assuming you were not expecting it, because holy with WHM in DF is random as hell, and that your party is too damn impatient to wait for your resources.) Screwing DRK out of it's best way of returning their most used resource. MP management on DRK is no joke, bloodprice is the only thing in my opinion that makes DRK function in AOE situations.

I had a WHM doing this to me, it was terrible, non of my bloodprice went through, darkside was dropping off me all the time, and I was always dry of MP making it harder and harder to hold hate because ALL of DRK's AOE generators cost MP, on like 2 or 3 mobs? not a problem can just cycle through and use single target enmity moves. If that wasn't bad enough the WHM was impatient and wanted to keep pulling and I barely had the resources to do anything. I can't hold larger AOE packs if you are starving me of my resource to do so.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Just saying, yall be getting your ass whipped pretty bad until we holy.

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Thats the point... you get MP from getting hit that is what bloodprice does and that is what abyssal drain and other defensive cooldowns are there to help with.

DRK WANTS and sometimes NEEDs to be hit.



Anyway I don't think anyone is saying DON'T holy, Just be more aware of WHEN you are using it. Chances are if you can't know when not to holy because of bloodprice, chances are you don't know when to hit me with esuna/leeches (and w/e the ast version is called) either. Obviously if you have not played with a dark and they have not said anything about it, then that's understandable, but if you are knowingly doing this, knowing that it is making the tanks life miserable... ya I got no words.

I'd find the macro really annoying but I know what it's like to starve on mp because the mob is getting stun locked. I don't like to wait around for mp before every pull and sometimes I end a pull with low mp but figure blood price will cover the next one. It made for some messy pulls. So whenever I go as whm for these dungeons, if I see blood price go up, I just wait before I start using holy.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

DRK WANTS and sometimes NEEDs to be hit.

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Yeah, but Holy's stun wears off after like 7 seconds. Either you wait 3 GCD to use Blood Price or they wait 6 to do anything effective at all (and their DPS rotation should be pretty predictable to you after 1-2 pulls).

If they're all stunned with Holy and you're DAing your AD, you're just being bad. The WHM doesn't need your measly self-heal when they're about to get 2-3 free Regen ticks and likely Assize or Assylum (or are sitting on a Tetra/Bene). It's like a PLD Flashing 3 times in a row and popping Sentinel at the pull and then having blind resist and no cooldown when the Stun wears off or a WAR popping Bloodbath during the stun or whatever. You have always had to adjust as you learn the healer you've been paired with.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Yeah, but Holy's stun wears off after like 7 seconds. Either you wait 3 GCD to use Blood Price or they wait 6 to do anything effective at all (and their DPS rotation should be pretty predictable to you after 1-2 pulls).

If they're all stunned with Holy and you're DAing your AD, you're just being bad. The WHM doesn't need your measly self-heal when they're about to get 2-3 free Regen ticks and likely Assize or Assylum (or are sitting on a Tetra/Bene). It's like a PLD Flashing 3 times in a row and popping Sentinel at the pull and then having blind resist and no cooldown when the Stun wears off or a WAR popping Bloodbath during the stun or whatever. You have always had to adjust as you learn the healer you've been paired with.

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It's nothing like PLD flashing 3 times not even close, imagine scorn costing mass amounts of MP as well and get rid of Sheltron you can't have that either.

Also Idk what your point on bloodbath was, no other tank is effected by holy, pulling slower to compensate for a healer that can't keep up maybe. (Edit: I see what you meant after reading your next comment after this one, what you meant about the bloodbath thing. I still don't understand the relevance. If a healer is spaming holy of coarse I'm not going to pop bloodprice, that would defeat the point. Again I was speaking as if bloodprice is already up, why would a healer interrupt that intentionally?")

Besides popping Bloodprice while your running into a pack is pretty common - you want those hits. healer is usually behind you, yes you can learn the healer but if they are non stop spamming stun until resist on every single pull through out the entirety of a dungeon don't be surprised when mobs peel off , and we have to slow down between pulls. it is just how the job functions.

Anyway I'm not here to argue, the point is, DRK wants to be hit. We can compare and dance all day. They could drop darkside and go only grit, just pray you don't have blms or smns in the party.

If we're comparing DAing AD or not, it's exactly like Blind since you can hold aggro with Unleash. It's even more like Bloodbath (it'll all be overheal if you pop it at the pull on WAR and the WHM stuns)

Prioritizing the WHM is superior for DPS so you should just do what tanks have always done and sort yourself out around if they DPS or not. It's not hard at all to count ~4 GCD before using Blood Price, which is when a typical WHM rotation (Swift Holy, Aero III, Holy, Holy) will have the stun drop off.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

If we're comparing DAing AD or not, it's exactly like Flashing since you can hold aggro with Unleash. In fact, it's less significant in healing demands to AD once than to spread your Flashing.

Prioritizing the WHM is superior for DPS so you should just do what tanks have always done and sort yourself out around if they DPS or not. It's not hard at all to count ~4 GCD before using Blood Price, which is when a typical WHM rotation (Swift Holy, Aero III, Holy, Holy) will have the stun drop off.

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You do realize your argument goes both ways right?

If I have bloodprice up already, before a whm decides to holy spam cuz lets be honest, they don't all holy spam. Which is what this was all about.

I really f'n hate metaphors, but If I'm in line at an ATM and i'm just about to swipe my card and you just come up in front of me and swipe your card... thats not rude I suppose.

I'm pretty sure we were assuming bloodprice was ALREADY up BEFORE the holy spam. Or at least I was.

There is 0 reason the tank can't adapt but my point is there is 0 reason a healer can't too.

And we can agree to disagree on the flash / unleash thing.

How so? Do you have to stop AoEing entirely for 15 seconds if you wait 10 seconds to use Blood Price? Do you have a 220 potency AoE?

I honestly don't think you should be popping Blood Price while you pull because you're getting hit by fewer mobs than if you use it after pulling. If you dropped Grit and turned on Blood Weapon at the end of the previous pull and succeeded with Soul Survivor and used C&S for MP you should have the MP to pull several packs without needing it, especially with the current dungeons that have like 2 pulls before the boss.

For the very first pull of the dungeon, yes it could really suck, but after that you should know if your healer will Holy spam.

Well, to be fair to you there are some healers that can't seem to decide what they want to do. That's extremely annoying to deal with and they tend to DPS without Cleric Stance on. This macro might be extremely good if you get stuck with one of them.

Blood weapon only gives MP on hit. I don't see how using that between pulls helps.

Non of your questions make sense to me, dps is not relevant to basic manners and basic battle field and party awareness.

And Carve and spit, is not relevant to my example at least ... as it is not available at level 59 (my fault for not clarifying I was in Library, leveling to 60)

Bloodprice is a kingpin move in DRKs arsnel, healers can 100% of the time know that they are going to be using it, on the other hand HOLY is not.. I have no way of knowing untill it is already happening.

I use bloodprice right as I am about to settle (not when im dragging mobs) Unmend/unleash during gather > Salted earth > bloodprice> cont> ad or unleash add darkarts ONLY if the return is high enough that is when I'm going to be spending the most MP. If I'm in the middle of my MP drain and someone interrupts the income then ya, if I learn later I don't need to do that, then fine, but if I'm dry I'm dry and I gotta wait.

In the right situations I run out of MP on pld - blm/smn combo, a damn good dragoon plus a damn good summoner. I don't see how you would think that it wouldn't be extra hard for dark which costs are way higher in the MP department.

From a WHM PoV :
It is way easier to start an AoE pull with Holy compared to "wait 15 seconds for your precious Blood Price" then Holy.

At the start :
1) You have stoneskin up.
2) Most tanks pop mitigation during the end of the pull, right before the AoE hell is unleashed.
3) With proper timing, Holy will land the moment everything is gathered (means those mobs lagging behind won't have a chance to attack the tank and is stunned straight away).

After "15 seconds for your precious blood price" :
1) No more stoneskin.
2) No more mitigation (You can pop more, but good luck with the next pull!!)
3) Everything and its mother is hitting you at full force.

And for those that believe your AD spam > Holy Spam damage, that's nonsense and any non mathematically challenged person can see that.

You also have to account for situation. Holy is really only mana-efficient if there are 6 or more enemies alive. If you're running with a DRK who is going to utilize BP, it's best that the WHM doesn't really DPS at all outside of Aero III and Stone III spam. If a WHM is going to wait 15 seconds to holy, then by that time a chunk of the mobs are going to be dead from the DRK and DPS, as well as the Stone III spam. By then it's pointless to even use Holy since it becomes a waste of MP.

Ideally, if a DRK is starting a pull with no MP and relying on BP to refill it for the entire 15 seconds, then that DRK is slowing the run down immensely. Not saying that method is bad, but optimally it should be avoided. It's no different than a PLD starting a pull with no CDS ready. It can be done, but shouldn't be done.

I admit I'm not intimately familiar with the inner workings of a DRK, so I gotta ask :
Can it not be done the opposite as well? DRK chill on his MP, while let us WHMs unleash holy on Earth on those mobs?

Any WHM worth his/her salt will be able to pace themselves nicely and have sufficient MP for every single pull (and we don't have to rely on outside factors as well!! Unlike the problems you DRKs seem to be having where Holy = No MP = sad DRK).