Dark Knight or Warrior?

I have both around lvl 40 and I cant decide which one to main. I like them both but I only want to focus on one tank. Which is the better tank at level 60? I could be wrong but it seems like Warriors have more defensive buffs than Dark Knights and they also have more HP which means better survivability.

The superior choice is obviously Samurai.






And if you don't buy that then just go with whatever one you enjoy playing the most. The tank meta doesn't come into play unless your doing Savage so it really won't matter, and even if you are both jobs are good for the current meta.

Just play WAR.

They are relevant whether you are a casual or is planning to do end game raid. WARs are pretty much mandatory and the other 2 tanks fight for that one slot.

I have both at 60 and they're both great but Warrior is where it's at for me.

WAR are the best now

Dark Warrior

Na DRK's have better Damage reduction than WAR has in terms of Magic defence. WAR's defiance doesn't reduce damage taken thus why it has the 25% Max HP bonus and 20% healing received *or other way round 20%/25%. DRK's Grit reduces Damage taken by 20%.


It's all down to play Styles, people say WAR is essential for End game raiding but it's not, all Alex Savage has been cleared with all 3 Tanks it's just that DRK/WAR has higher DPS output then PLD has.

It's all down to your play style bud.

WAR has the highest DPS out of the 3 Tanks so if you enjoy dealing huge damage than WAR is the best choice for you and thanks to Defiance giving a 20/25% boost in Max HP it's also one of the Highest HP as well but the downside to WAR is it relies more healing more than PLD and DRK and it takes more damage then both Tanks with Defiance not offering it's 20% Damage reduction.

DRK is the only Tank with Magic attacking skills and it's DPS is close to even a WARS DPS and has some skills that the other 2 tanks don't, a Ground AOE and a jump to enemy skill. Also in terms of Magic Defence the DRK wins with it's Dark Arts + Dark Mind combo, with Dark Mind beining only a 60 sec cool down. The Down side is DRK relies heavily on MP so managing your MP is a must if you wana be a pro DRK but it isn't all too difficult. Also it's Living Skill is a bit more complicated than a WAR's Holmgang and PLD HG. If used right it can be used to give healers some breathing time but if your healers aint paying attention you could die to the walking dead effect.

All in all there is no Superior Tanking class, all have the STR and Weakness.

It depends on what you're interested in doing. If you just want to hop on and tank some 4-man dungeons, then your choice of tank is mostly an aesthetic one. In typical raid set-ups at the moment, WAR tends to be played more like a dps with part-time tanking responsibilities, while DRK tends to be more of a full-time tank.

On the whole, WAR is more accessible and a lot of fun to just pick up and play, while DRK is more technically involved and intricate. Level them both to 60 before making your decision. It shouldn't take very long.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

All in all there is no Superior Tanking class, all have the STR and Weakness.

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This. Choose what you want to play and what fits your playstyle the most. After all this is an MMORPG and only you can decide if you prefer wielding Death itself as a DRK or if you like the Raw Brutal Damage style of the warrior. ;)
Personally I switched over from WAR to DRK simply because i like DRK more, even knowing WAR deals more DPS overall but theres just so many situations where DRK can shine imo. ;)

WAR.

Almost all of the cooldowns are insensitive of damage type, no raid will leave you last choice.

DPS through the roof single target and AoE.

Best team utility.

Max DPS rotation also holds hate.

Mad TP management

Low cooldown timers, inner beast never far away as a backup.

It has all the tools and is more about deciding which ones to use and when, rather than the other tanks which simply can't do some things.

Effective and forgiving, but also has a rewardingly high skill ceiling.

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

WAR.

Almost all of the cooldowns are insensitive of damage type, no raid will leave you last choice.

DPS through the roof single target and AoE.

Best team utility.

Max DPS rotation also holds hate.

Mad TP management

Low cooldown timers, inner beast never far away as a backup.

It has all the tools and is more about deciding which ones to use and when, rather than the other tanks which simply can't do some things.

Effective and forgiving, but also has a rewardingly high skill ceiling.

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Same can be said for DRK, does WAR have a ground AOE it can place down? Does WAR have a close in skill? Also I might just add the only thing from WAR is he doesn't have the Damage reduction from he's Tank stance but PLD/DRK do.

Inner Beast is way better at reducing Magic Damage then Dark Mind.

20% vs 15-30%

Dark Mind has to have Dark Arts to even make it good.

Has much less of a cool-down.

You can pretty much Inner Beast every magical attack, and also reduce the autoattack that happens afterwards.

The "Magical" tank thing is poorly designed.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Inner Beast is way better at reducing Magic Damage then Dark Mind.

20% vs 15-30%

Dark Mind has to have Dark Arts to even make it good.

Has much less of a cool-down.

You can pretty much Inner Beast every magical attack, and also reduce the autoattack that happens afterwards.

The "Magical" tank thing is poorly designed.

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Your playing DRK so wrong then if you think that :P and you can't inner beast every attack since you need to build up your stacks for it and WAR is missing the -20% Damage taken that DRK/PLD has also you can D-Blade, Reprisal, Shadow Skin and DA+DM the TB which really what you should ever use your attack for not to mention Inner beast only last 6 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

WAR is missing the -20% Damage taken that DRK/PLD has

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Stop. You're so wrong on this. +25% more HP is the exact same thing as -20% less damage taken in terms of eHP. The exact same thing. Only the healing part is inferior, Defiance would need to give about 25% more healing received to be completely equal to ShO/Grit, but those missing 4-5% are easily compensated by the huge amount of self-healing a WAR has.

And Inner Beast is easily the best defensive ability in the game. Building 5 stacks takes between 16 and 21 seconds basically. You can have IB litteraly anytime you want and need it with knowledge of the fight. Vengeance is also the best defensive CD in the game without taking HG into account. And also, Storm's Eye and Storm's Path. Nuff said. Stop comparing WAR with the other 2, it's not even the same thing.

Lol at anyone trying to say that WAR isn't mandatory for raids.

The tank hierarchy is as such:

1. WAR
2. WAR
3. WAR
4. WAR
5. DrK
786. PLD

WAR is the most complete tank in the game and has ZERO downsides. DrK is good but has flaws. If you are endgame raiding and looking for a static them go with WAR. If you are just casually playing then go with whatever feels the best.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Stop. You're so wrong on this. +25% more HP is the exact same thing as -20% less damage taken in terms of eHP. The exact same thing. Only the healing part is inferior, Defiance would need to give about 25% more healing received to be completely equal to ShO/Grit, but those missing 4-5% are easily compensated by the huge amount of self-healing a WAR has.

etc due to limit

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Yeah but the main point i'm trying to make that DRK can reduce more Magic damage that a WAR.

Don't get your fingers in a twist :p

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

Yeah but the main point i'm trying to make that DRK can reduce more Magic damage that a WAR.

Don't get your fingers in a twist :p

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That's a nice ninja edit to completely change your post. To answer your question (yes, the one you edited out):

PLD was taken in solo tank situations primarily due to the fact that their CDs allowed groups to completely negate specific mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

That's a nice ninja edit to completely change your post. To answer your question (yes, the one you edited out):

PLD was taken in solo tank situations primarily due to the fact that their CDs allowed groups to completely negate specific mechanics.

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Lol I thought I best keep it on track and not go off in a different direction. Plus cooking posting on forums is never a good idea.

Edit:

And also the fact I didn't want to write a big massive post only for it to say sorry 1000 character post limit.

For the WAR VS PLD tank stance multi hits is where PLD was great at and even WAR's added HP and Healing received could not comprehend.

So for Example one of them was T9 Bahamut's Claw.

PLD: 9,000 HP takes 5 Bahamut Claw hits at 3,000 Damage as the standard damage, thanks to PLD's Tank stance it takes 2,400 per hit 5 x 2,400 = 12,000 damage

WAR: 9,000 HP +25% 11,250 3,000 x 5 = 15,000 damage.

So where as the Healer would heal more on PLD but even the PLD's shield could reduce the incoming damage by another 22%. *combine with bulk increase chance of shield blocking by 80%*

WAR has some nice Defensive Cool downs but not the best. All of them have the pros and cons, Innerbeast is a awesome skill but PLD's got it's Shieldon now which is only a 30 sec CD and doesn't cost a GCD.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

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That's the dumbest maths I've ever seen. If the PLD has 9.000 HP, the WAR has 11250, not 9000.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

That's the dumbest maths I've ever seen. If the PLD has 9.000 HP, the WAR has 11250, not 9000.

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Wow you really are touchy today aint ya? just calm down a litttle ok Freyy? no need to blow a basket.

Anyway that was based on them having the same gear so duh they both would have 9K HP but since you didn't read all my post you missed out the +25% HP making it 11,250.

and in case you missed it again I shall bold it for you \o/

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

Lol I thought I best keep it on track and not go off in a different direction. Plus cooking posting on forums is never a good idea.

Edit:

And also the fact I didn't want to write a big massive post only for it to say sorry 1000 character post limit.

For the WAR VS PLD tank stance multi hits is where PLD was great at and even WAR's added HP and Healing received could not comprehend.

So for Example one of them was T9 Bahamut's Claw.

PLD: 9,000 HP takes 5 Bahamut Claw hits at 3,000 Damage as the standard damage, thanks to PLD's Tank stance it takes 2,400 per hit 5 x 2,400 = 12,000 damage

WAR: 9,000 HP +25% 11,250 3,000 x 5 = 15,000 damage.

So where as the Healer would heal more on PLD but even the PLD's shield could reduce the incoming damage by another 22%. *combine with bulk increase chance of shield blocking by 80%*

WAR has some nice Defensive Cool downs but not the best. All of them have the pros and cons, Innerbeast is a awesome skill but PLD's got it's Shieldon now which is only a 30 sec CD and doesn't cost a GCD.

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true not the most detailed but you get the idea.......right?

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

Lol at anyone trying to say that WAR isn't mandatory for raids.

WAR is the most complete tank in the game and has ZERO downsides. DrK is good but has flaws. If you are endgame raiding and looking for a static then go with WAR. If you are just casually playing then go with whatever feels the best.

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What are DRK's Flaws?

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

no need to blow a basket.

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Did............did you mean gasket?

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

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Thank you Mr. NinjaEdit. That's smart of you to edit your post 2min before answering to me. The "+25% HP 11250" part was non existent the first time I read your answer. I'll just say that now with your edit, your maths are only showing that I'm completely right when I'm saying that Defiance = ShO in terms of effective HP. I'll never argue with you again, you're a troll.

Ah your welcome, well tec I should be called MR Rougedit, haven't got him up to 30 yet. Yeah I did add the % part later on but what else do you think the +25 HP was for? STR?

No, you're not completely right. WAR's benefits better from Adlo and Stone Skin then PLDs do due to their more healing and HP buff from Defiance. Don't forget that in terms of effectiveness \o and hey it was you who blew off your Gasket 1st not me.

Did I get the Gasket part right?

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

No, you're not completely right. WAR's benefits better from Adlo and Stone Skin then PLDs do due to their more healing and HP buff from Defiance.

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PLD @ 14000 HP w/ ShO
WAR @ 17500 HP w/ Defiance

Both get a 10% Stoneskin

PLD @ 15400 eHP w/ ShO
WAR @ 19250 eHp w/ Defiance

Both take 1750 damage

WAR: 19250 - 1750 = 17500 (SS broken)
PLD: 15400 - 1400 (20% of 1750) = 14000 (SS broken)

Adlo same deal. In fact, with Convalescence PLD gets a stronger Adlo than WAR can. WAR's is stronger to spread with Deployment Tactics, though.

Basically PLD gets a smaller shield, but also takes less damage, so it evens out. They also receive slightly more effective healing with tank stance and receive more effective healing from healing abilities. Outside of tank stance, their healing received is the same and SS/Adlo work the same.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

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http://img-comment-fun.9cache.com/me...13_700wa_0.gif

I love you SpookyGhost. Was too tired to do the maths to explain something that has already been calculated almost two years ago.

In order for you to determine which one to main, is going to be based on which one you enjoy more, which is why I think you really need to level them both up to find the answer. If you want someone to tell you what to play than I say go warrior (thats just my preference)

All tanks played well, are viable in current content.

Do you want to MT or OT?

@ OP I would go Warrior if you are enjoying it, most solid tank among the three tanks, and most future proof if you are going to raid with it, but Warrior does have a higher learning curve to fully optimize it, versus Drk.

Dark Knight is currently fine for everything ingame too, if you want to have that edgy feel. :p

But play whatever you like is more important.

Glorious full str WAR master race.

I am talking about alex savage here. If you are only going to focus on 1 tank and the choice is between DRK and WAR, then level DRK.
WAR is predominantly used as a off-tank. DRK is accepted for either role (though, if you are DRK, you will be MT most of the time).


If its casual content, you can level either. The content is easy enough that no one really cares which you are using.

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

Lol at anyone trying to say that WAR isn't mandatory for raids.

The tank hierarchy is as such:

1. WAR
2. WAR
3. WAR
4. WAR
5. DrK
786. PLD

WAR is the most complete tank in the game and has ZERO downsides. DrK is good but has flaws. If you are endgame raiding and looking for a static them go with WAR. If you are just casually playing then go with whatever feels the best.

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At current gear levels (almost 15 ilvls overgeared from the i190 benchmark) no one tank is mandatory unless your group is bad. This guy can totally play whatever tank he wants and if he turns out to be skilled he'll get a group and clear content. What you do in your static is not the end-all-be-all strat, not even world 1st people make those claims.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

At current gear levels (almost 15 ilvls overgeared from the i190 benchmark) no one tank is mandatory unless your group is bad. This guy can totally play whatever tank he wants and if he turns out to be skilled he'll get a group and clear content. What you do in your static is not the end-all-be-all strat, not even world 1st people make those claims.

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I never said that my strategy was the end all be all? But for any future raids WAR is almost 100 guaranteed to be mandatory unless PLD and DrK get some hefty buffs.

Also remember that this guy is gonna be making a tank from scratch... The only groups who are geared enough to carry a PLD/DrK tanking combo through A3S and AS4 most likely already have a static or are done raiding AS1-AS4.

Good luck clearing any higher (AS3-AS4) in PUG with people who still need drops from AS3 and AS4 when about 95% of the PFs I see are locked DrK/WAR.

Just giving the guy all the facts.

To all the people saying war has a higher skill ceiling than drk, are you kidding me?

Let's say for arguments sake stack management=MP management (though DRK MP is a hell of a lot more volatile)

That leaves wars with 1 ogcd to worry about to maintain their superior dps. As a drk I have 7-8 timers depending on the situation to keep track of all under a min cooldown, and all need to be kept on cooldown in order to even come close to war.

As a reference I got war to 60 a few days ago, was maintaining over 1100 dps on a dummy within 10 minutes of hitting 60, with DRK if I don't do my rotation damn near perfect on a dummy I'm not gonna break 1k. If I do everything perfect on DRK I can get 1050-1100 but it requires so much more effort than war it's crazy.

Wars have to plan out every stack in advance? For the 5 minutes or so before you actually need any of those CDs for a tank buster in A1S a war can just go balls out dps with resin bombs and a provoke being the only thing they have to worry about besides their incredibly simple rotation.

As far as prep time for inner beast before the buster, I time my shadowskin with prey and it usually has about 4 seconds left once buster hits, so just after resin seems like the optimal time to build stacks for IB, you could choose to save infuriate and do a double IB to help mitigate some of the cleave damage during preys as well like I do with shadowskin/convalescence. It's incredibly telegraphed once you have knowledge of the fight and saying that any 1 tank is harder because they have to prep stuff for a tank buster is, well wrong.

In that same time as a DRK I have to take a GCD to turn on tank stance, then while doing exactly what you are doing to build up your 5 stacks (aka using the GCD) I have shadowskin/conv/dark dance (hope to proc reprisal)/reprisal/dark arts (animation lock can screw 3 off globals during buster so I have DA pre-popped)/dark mind/shadow wall. So in that 15 seconds of tankbuster build up, you pop 1 2 3 1 4 5 vengeance>IB, I assume also thrill/conv in the middle there. 10 buttons tops, 11 if you need to use equilibrium. I have the same except 1 4 6 1 4 5 (IB/Grit use same gcd). Plus the off globals for cooldowns puts me to 14 buttons plus any offensive off globals that come up, could be as many as 19-20 buttons I have to push in the exact same time frame to maximize performance.

And let's not forget that most wars nowadays just HG the first buster and never even drop deliverance until the prey after first jump.

But wars skill ceiling is so high.

And as for the oh so clever "doesn't STACK up" comment you have a resource that you deplete for more dps or for defensive purposes that is built up by going through your basic rotation. DRK has a resource that they deplete for more dps or for defensive purposes that is built up by going through their basic rotation. Just cus my MP stacks up to 7k and your abandon only stacks to 5 doesn't make them all that different.

Warrior is pretty simple in concept and allows for growth without being overly complex - regardless of the encounter.

Dark Knight tends to require a bit more understanding of it's concepts - relies more on knowledge of the encounter to be effective.

Thanks for the responses everyone! There are many interesting points being made on this post. I've decided to go ahead with my Dark Knight and will be taking it to 60.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

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Again Warrior is harder to fully optimize. Stacks does not equal MP. MP is a resource you can use anytime, while Stacks you can only use when at 5 stacks, and better use it at 5 stacks too, because anymore build up leads to ineffecient use of warriors stacking mechanic. Drk you can control/maintain when to use your resource a lot more, while warrior has to plan it out...but sure if you want to waste stack build up to wait for a tank buster. That is fine, but it is not optimizing the job. If people do not see that idk what to say anymore. Wasted stacks equals wasted possible Fell Cleaves. I think I am done.

Wasting 1-2 gcds really shouldn't make or break the fight though, and unless killing the boss, then going back through the log to figure out exactly x amount of seconds from pull>buster and working through it gcd by gcd on a spread sheet to figure out exactly how much potency you can get in somehow = skill in playing the class instead of at spreadsheet use/memorization then yes I guess wars do have a much higher skill ceiling.

And you can't "use MP anytime". For instance, if DP or C&S is coming off cooldown soon you need to save for it, if it's part of the fight where you need to be in tank stance you need to save for even longer for it. And usually at the same time you need to save extra for a DA DM. all of this needs to be planned very far in advance or you find yourself starving during busters.

Learning the fight and when to pop things =/= class difficulty. Having roughly 40% more buttons to push per minute = class difficulty.

Comparing DRK's MP pool to WAR's stacks is extremely flawed. With WAR you earn 5 quantifiable blocks of a mechanic, spend them, get them back, spend them, get them back. Everything gives you the same amount of stacks, and everything costs the same amount of stacks. You do not lose stacks as the buff counts down, you simply lose the buff entirely if it falls off.

DRK, its a much more granular pool of a resource that is amorphously jumping up and down all the time. You don't wanna get a huge amount of MP back and top yourself off and then spend it, you want to be constantly hovering between about 15% and 75% MP, if you ever jump outside that range you could be playing better. Everything gives you different amounts of MP, everything costs different amounts of MP, and Darkside constantly drains it. Its a lot more to keep track of. I also find WAR a lot easier because almost everything is on the GCD, its much easier to mentally map out what you're going to do in advance and the only things you need to worry about weaving are Brutal Swing and various CDs, where with DRK, almost every other GCD some oGCD ability is coming off recast and needs to be woven in, and some like Dark Passenger and Carve you need to make snap decisions about. DRK's resource consumption/recovery/management is more of an art than a science like WAR's stacks.

And at any rate, you can't equate a WAR with 5 stacks to a DRK with full MP, and you can't equate a WAR with 0 stacks to a DRK that has MP floored. In both cases the WAR is just at different stages of doing their job, and the DRK has failed at doing its job. They're both a form of resource management but that's where the similarities end.

The only time I feel truly safe from worrying about my MP while playing DRK is while OTing (which I almost never do), since the DPS rotation pays for itself with Blood Weapon, and when I'm in a dungeon and puling 6-9 mobs (there's almost nothing you can do to spend MP as fast as you'll be getting it back with that much trash on you and Blood Price up).

DrK is undoubtedly harder to play than WAR. However I feel it is more so becuase of resource management than using oGCDs, everyone should be able to weave OGCDs and honestly of you cant then you need to learn your class better.

But at the end of the day a DrK will need to have more knowledge of a fight to preform at a high level than a WAR.

WAR has an answer for everything and the answer is never far off. You have 17 seconds to decided what to do with your stacks and really no matter what you choose wont be "wrong" just not optimal. A DrK however can choose wrong about managing his MP and totally fuck himseld and the raid (not being able to AoE to grab adds, can\\'t put grit up, ect.)

Additionally a WAR has unlimited TP and you REALLY need to suck to run them into a position where they can\\'t function. Hell even if you pop berserk too early and find yourself pacified when you need to pull a mob you still have flash. Literally we have an answer for everything.