Please change the Accuracy stat...

... or remove it. You can never really win with this stat, you're either completely over or utterly under.

Request:

Accuracy no longer determines if action is a hit or miss.
Accuracy decreases the chance and penalty of a glancing strike.
Additional accuracy after glancing strike cap is converted to armor penetration/piercing.

What is a Glancing Strike?

A Glancing blow/strike is a attack that hits at an angle or is shallow/light(A papercut would be a glancing blow). Incoming damage is reduced. The chance that it occurs would scale directly with accuracy while the penalty incurred would tier.

What is armor penetration/piercing?

Armor Penetration(ArPen) is the ability to ignore a certain amount of defense as your attacks penetrate or pierce through. This scaled directly with accuracy over cap. This directly increases the damage you do on a per attack basis.

For example:

Glancing:
400 ACC - 65% chance to glancing blow/50% reduction on damage
450 ACC - 45% chance to glancing blow/45% reduction on damage
500 ACC - 25% chance to glancing blow/40% reduction on damage
550 ACC - 20% chance to glancing blow/35% reduction on damage
600 ACC - 15% chance to glancing blow/20% reduction on damage/0% glance on back
650 ACC - 5% chance to glancing blow/10% reduction on damage/0% glance on side
750 ACC - 0% chance to glancing blow/0% reduction on damage/0% glance on front

Armor Penetration:

600-650 - Scales to 5% armor pen when attacking from back
650-700 - Scales to 10% arpen when attacking from back/scales to 7.5% arpen when attacking from side.
700-750 - Scales to 15% arpen when attacking from back/scales to 15% arpen when attacking from side.

Just make it into cooldown reduction. That makes it enough of a side-stat that it won't trump every other side-stat, -and- it's a desirable stat no matter the role.

How about we dump the accuracy stat entirely for PVE? Maybe put something else in it's place. As far as secondary stats go accuracy is one of the least interesting (parry is lame to but that's outside the scope of this thread). Then just add something else in it's place, either more skill speed or determination but not a new secondary stat.

It's really complicated and I can't tell the difference between glancing blows and Block/parry.

Also, I'm not sure how Arpen works with CDs that increase the amount of defense and armor players have (e.g. foresight). If you're going to change it, just remove it and just make ACC equal to average ilevel.

It's flat, simple, and automatically increases with progression without having to slot it in to gear. You also don't have to overhaul the entire system because some enemies have higher dodge chances or for those dps checks. You just have to change base ACC values so 210 ACC is the same as 700 ACC.

Let's not remove it. It's nice and simple, and gives players something to budget their secondary stats around.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Let's not remove it. It's nice and simple, and gives players something to budget their secondary stats around.

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That's exactly why accuracy is a terrible stat. You should never have to budget yourself around a stat. Instead the stat should become less optimal than other stats but not a burden if you have more than you need. The current issue is: If you have too much you just wasted a better slot for secondaries, if you have to little you need to find more and will likely cause yourself in an overage. When a stat negatively impacts you for having it, it's bad design.

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It's really complicated and I can't tell the difference between glancing blows and Block/parry.

Also, I'm not sure how Arpen works with CDs that increase the amount of defense and armor players have (e.g. foresight).

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Block and parry are defensive stats that occur due to incoming damage. A glancing blow occurs on outgoing damage. A glancing blow would be largely irrelevant for dps as it's likely you would meet the acc anyways. However, Arpen is the offset for having too much accuracy so you're never hurt due to bad itemization or bad rng. Conceptually, you would not be able to gain arpen through any other method except accuracy. This would also help with healer damage/debuffs as they would never miss even under the cap, they just wouldn't do the full damage. Which is still better than doing no damage at all.

Arpen would work how they want it to work. You can stick it on the end or towards the beginning of a calculation with varying effects.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Let's not remove it. It's nice and simple, and gives players something to budget their secondary stats around.

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For simplicitys sake I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Hioki

That's exactly why accuracy is a terrible stat. You should never have to budget yourself around a stat. Instead the stat should become less optimal than other stats but not a burden if you have more than you need. The current issue is: If you have too much you just wasted a better slot for secondaries, if you have to little you need to find more and will likely cause yourself in an overage. When a stat negatively impacts you for having it, it's bad design.

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Accuracy will never go away, even with your little scheme and scenarios. You still need X amount to hit the monster or to be at the right amount to make it so you can hit something. But what it really feels like its boiling down to is, you can't be asked to look up information about your class, and what accuracy caps are for certain fights. There are ways to make the butterzone of accuracy, and be within a few points for each encounter. You can always make multiple sets of gear for various encounters to squeeze out more dps with the minimum accuracy needed. Stop being lazy.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/

This is a great site for people who want to min max the gear they have, or would like to find out a best in slot set for their job, based around what they need per encounter. Lets not needlessly try to change things that need not be changed.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

For simplicitys sake I agree with you.

Accuracy will never go away, even with your little scheme and scenarios. You still need X amount to hit the monster or to be at the right amount to make it so you can hit something. But what it really feels like its boiling down to is, you can't be asked to look up information about your class, and what accuracy caps are for certain fights. There was ways to make the butterzone of accuracy, and be within a few points for each encounter. You can always make multiple sets of gear for various encounters to squeeze out more dps with the minimum accuracy needed. Stop being lazy.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/

This is a great site for people who want to min max the gear they have, or would like to find out a best in slot set for their job, based around what they need per encounter. Lets not needlessly try to change things that need not be changed.

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Please read the below statement:

Instead the stat should become less optimal than other stats but not a burden if you have more than you need.

Thank you.

Changing a stat to provide further benefit beyond it's normal rating increases not only decreases the burden to the common/casual player but also increases the available theory crafting. It's actually a pretty big win for everyone down the line. But ok let's call me lazy for wanting more out of a stat that has a hard cap with no diminishing returns. You do realize, this wouldn't change anything you do as a player. Right?

You can still optimize for the encounters we have if you really feel the need to.

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Originally Posted by Hioki

Please read the below statement:

Instead the stat should become less optimal than other stats but not a burden if you have more than you need.

Thank you.

Changing a stat to provide further benefit beyond it's normal rating increases not only decreases the burden to the common/casual player but also increases the available theory crafting. It's actually a pretty big win for everyone down the line. But ok let's call me lazy for wanting more out of a stat that has a hard cap with no diminishing returns. You do realize, this wouldn't change anything you do as a player. Right?

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You are not even thinking about the repercutions this kind of change would do to the game overall. Its not something that will be changed without a very large overhual to the current battle system. How would you stop people from stacking accuracy because of armor penetration, what kind of an impact would that have? how do we now fix monsters, and bosses and encouters and tune them so that in case they have 9 million accuracy to make sure they land their hits 100%, that they don't have enough armor penetration to thusly 1 shot you. There is alot more behind the scenes things that you are not looking at. Yes, fixing accuracy would be more beneficial to everyone, and making it a better stat, but also think about the downside impacts that this will have as well as what will need to be tuned overall. i'm not a dev, and I doubt you are either, so neither of us knows what can happen if you mess with the system.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

You are not even thinking about the repercutions this kind of change would do to the game overall. Its not something that will be changed without a very large overhual to the current battle system. How would you stop people from stacking accuracy because of armor penetration, what kind of an impact would that have? how do we now fix monsters, and bosses and encouters and tune them so that in case they have 9 million accuracy to make sure they land their hits 100%, that they don't have enough armor penetration to thusly 1 shot you. There is alot more behind the scenes things that you are not looking at. Yes, fixing accuracy would be more beneficial to everyone, and making it a better stat, but also think about the downside impacts that this will have as well as what will need to be tuned overall. i'm not a dev, and I doubt you are either, so neither of us knows what can happen if you mess with the system.

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1.) Armor pen usually soft caps. I suggested 15% but it can be significantly less. That is a development choice.
2.) Enemies generally do not benefit from armor pen(they're considered at acc cap to hit the player) or if they do there are defensive stats that are designed to mitigate it. God knows we can actually use some decent defensive stats in the game and fights tuned to survival instead of damage.
3.) Nearly nothing in the open world would kill you at level appropriate ranges as they don't have 9 million accuracy. This is apparent since you are capable of dodging enemy attacks.

Yes, I actually did think beyond just putting something out there. There are also plenty of other games that have arpen that it's fairly easy to come to a design.

I think the only problem it has now is that accuracy caps are still only going up incrementally, but the amount of accuracy on individual gear has increased a ton. A single piece could have like 60 accuracy on it. It's very hard to be "at cap" instead of greatly over or greatly under anymore.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Just make it into cooldown reduction. That makes it enough of a side-stat that it won't trump every other side-stat, -and- it's a desirable stat no matter the role.

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No matter the role? Sure. No matter the class/job? Not so much. Some have far larger dps bonuses from CDs than others; some CDs would require immense amounts of Haste (CD reduc) to provide any real advantage (BotD, Enochian); more still would desync CDs from rotation, requiring an equal amount of Skill Speed, currently a significantly inferior stat even on Monk, to make use of.
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On topic: I'm sold on all but the Armor Pen component being positionally dependent. I'd also prefer that it be inferior to other stats past acc cap (though not sheer waste, as accuracy alone is currently), as to be primarily a "raider's stat," rather than the eventual 'physical dps' king stat'. If not, accuracy itself should probably be further revised, and something like armor pen separate.

I like that accuracy exists, to an extent. I like that I can eventually afford not to be attacking from the back. I just feel like the cost is too high currently, and between it and the somewhat weak effect of our secondary stats now (e.g. i210 at 60 compared to i90 at 50), we have little room for any extremes or experimentation in builds. That and (Skill) Speed just needs to be outright fixed, for its (slowly) exponential value, its lack of AA/oGCD dmg mods, and its eventually immense TP drain (if it costs more, it should do more -- ideally, if we don't want to mess with the support meta, it should cost the same and have the same weight). Rethink Parry and defensive secondaries from the ground up.

Edit: I really like Anova's idea of giving base accuracy with ilvl. If we eventually got some freely shiftable stats on gear, we could then choose to toss in a bit more accuracy for those fights where we're forced to attack from the front a bit while our gear's still at the progression level, but since accuracy is basically little more than a raider's proof of gearing / sacrificed real secondary stats, this would fit the bill nicely.

I agree Accuracy should either be gone or start making sense.

I'm not even going to discuss the fact that Crit and Accuracy are exactly the same thing.

At the very least, it's not acceptable for our character to outright miss unless we're blinded.
Our character is "extraordinary". Not a mundane soldier wannabe.
Even if it did make sense missing attacks at low levels, it doesn't at high levels.
Hitting a rabbit in the left eye, but Missing a golem just because of level difference, is simply hilarious.
By Miss, I am not talking about getting blocked, parried or dodged, but simply failing to hit the mark.

However, it is perfectly acceptable for our attacks to not always hit exactly where we want them to or how we want them to, and thus cause a portion of the intended damage.

In this fashion, I believe the OP's idea is a good one.
The details aren't necessarily perfect, but the idea of having our attacks range from - at worst - a glancing blow to - at best - a perfect hit in a vulnerable spot, is vastly superior both in immersion and in gameplay to a binary hit or miss chance that you may not notice at all for a whole fight, and completely ruin your rotation in the next fight.

As for soft caps, I think it should simply be a diminishing return on the progression of armor penetration, such that it takes more and more rating to advance another 1% of armor penetration.
This might have a target limit.

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Originally Posted by Nurvus

I agree Accuracy should either be gone or start making sense.

Even if it did make sense missing attacks at low levels, it doesn't at high levels.
Hitting a rabbit in the left eye, but Missing a golem just because of level difference, is simply hilarious.
By Miss, I am not talking about getting blocked, parried or dodged, but simply failing to hit the mark.

However, it is perfectly acceptable for our attacks to not always hit exactly where we want them to or how we want them to, and thus cause a portion of the intended damage.

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This is the thing that always got me. We have bosses that are getting harder and harder to miss just due to their gigantic sizes, yet somehow require higher and higher accuracy... That and our enemies don't seem remotely capable of defending themselves with dodges, blocks, or parries. I could see our accuracy coming into play in order to avoid being blocked/parried/dodged, but because we're suddenly unable to gauge our arm-length between ourselves and our target?...

Accuracy doesn't just represent making contact

It represents penetrating the natural armor they have - 'Miss' is just the universal word for 'ya done !@#%ed up.' It's the same reasoning why Full Plate has the same armor class as someone with 26 Dexterity; The armor stops the hit, the dexterity dodges the hit, but they're both classified in the general term of "Armor Class".

That being said, Accuracy as a stat has been outdated for the past decade.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Accuracy doesn't just represent making contact

It represents penetrating the natural armor they have - 'Miss' is just the universal word for 'ya done !@#%ed up.' It's the same reasoning why Full Plate has the same armor class as someone with 26 Dexterity; The armor stops the hit, the dexterity dodges the hit, but they're both classified in the general term of "Armor Class".

That being said, Accuracy as a stat has been outdated for the past decade.

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I disagree. You're trying to mix completely different game concepts.
In games like D&D, armor class represents chance to get hit, but when you get hit, there is no mitigation apart from special abilities, spells and items.
In MMOs armor reduces the damage, and that is represented in the % damage reduction it provides.
Translating it to realistic terms, if you wear plate and get hit with a sword in a protected part of your armor, you won't take the full slashing damage, but the impact should still result in blunt damage, resulting in a bruise instead of a lethal wound.
The armor did its job protecting you.

What you're describing is the difference between hitting where it hurts the most, and hitting where it hurts the least.
There's already a stat that covers that - Critical Hit Rate - it determines how good you are at aiming for vulnerable spots.

Accuracy, on the other hand, is how good your hand-eye (or spell-eye) coordination is. How close to where you want to hit you actually manage to hit.
Did it hit right where you wanted to, close, or barely?

Likewise, I believe Dodge should not always necessarily succeed 100%.
You might dodge part of the damage by turning a perfect hit into a glancing blow.

Same thing with Parry. You might not always perfectly parry a blow, but greatly reduce its damage.

What I'm defending here is making hit, dodge, parry, etc, less "all or nothing".
At least where it comes to hitting, you should never, ever get a "nothing" without interference from the enemy.

I'm kinda at work so this can't be too long, but...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...move-accuracy?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/232003-Please-remove-accuracy?

I'm still in the camp of we shouldn't remove accuracy because then gearing would literally go to purely stacking the better weighted off-stats, in which case we should also just remove the 3rd onward ranked off-stats (*cough* parry *cough* speed *cough*).

I'd be fine with changing it, but that would be a LOT of work on the dev's part. And since the dev's haven't responded to any of these, in general I think we're
http://img.pandawhale.com/146480-jav...e-gif-ecIo.gif

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Originally Posted by Nurvus

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When it comes to having gradual scale vs. entire scale stats.

http://i.imgur.com/kamTD5S.jpg

So long as the entire scale stats work a lot slower (and generally I would say accuracy does [yes, yes, my opinion and all that]).

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Originally Posted by lyndwyrm;3366566I'm still in the camp of we shouldn't remove accuracy because then gearing would literally go to purely stacking the better weighted off-stats, in which case we should also just remove the 3rd onward ranked off-stats (*cough* parry *cough* speed *cough*).

I'd be fine with changing it, but that would be a [B

LOT[/B] of work on the dev's part.

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I'd really like to see the secondary stats revised a bit in general. Less primary stat weight, more secondary stat weights, (and better weight-balance between secondary stats in most jobs) so we can actually feel like they're having an effect, or like we're actually able to experiment a bit. The "it keeps you from adding stats you'd rather have" doesn't really seem like a benefit to me... I like the idea of adding a little accuracy to deal with certain fights, but on the whole, I don't see why we need 640 of it to attack a giant robot when a small, nimble wasp required 400 to hit, nor do I see stacking it as adding to any raid experience; all it does is ensure that we eventually build two gear sets, our highest ilvl set with acc cap for raiding, and our highest ilvl set with as little accuracy as possible for everything else.

On accuracy, from the tank PoV: My favorite system for armor classes vs. evasion included two extra stats on armor. [Note: here accuracy caused percentile damage.] I forget their exact terms but the first, call it 'Balance', controlled how quickly enemy attacks became glancing blows and how quickly glancing blow damage tapered off, essentially the dice roll range for mitigated attacks and their devaluation curve. The second, let's call it 'mass', was actually a debuff component to a lot of heavier armor sets - being larger, certain attacks that may have missed in a slenderer armor set are now instead minor glancing blows - enlarging the total dice roll range, so to speak. The result was that higher armor classes tended to be more reliable, but were a bit less able to 'thread the needle' via perfect evasion.

Different attack types used different balance points, where piercing highest chance to actually hit at all, but had the least chance of being a glancing blow, while blunt attacks had the least difference between full hits and glancing blow strikes, slashing in between. Weapons had further modifiers for 'impact' (a multiplier of attack power that dealt lingering suppression on the target - slowing, delaying, or canceling its abilities or movements), 'penetration' (which multiplied the attack's impact to attempt to ignore armor completely, and 'balance', which controlled how enemy target's armor mitigation curve - how far one has to penetrate enemy armor for decent effect. Penetration and impact worked against each other slightly; the more penetration (damage priority), the less impact (mitigation priority) dealt. Blunt weapons tended to have the lowest pen, piercing the highest, while both blunt and piercing weapons needed relatively little. Slashing weapons, potentially the most devastating, needed fairly high impact and penetration in order to meet their armor-piercing needs. (Note: penetration literally removed enemy armor, adjusting its balance, essentially chipping away at the part that would be glanced - so it made sense to, say, open with piercing (DRK strike-lead), follow up with blunt to enlarge the opening (MNK in pursuit), and rip through with slashing (DRK reaper). On paper it sounds a overly complicated, but in-game it worked just as one would realistically expect. All that's really needed is to keep things roughly consistent, so that these factors need not be re-theory-crafted with each new gear-set or raid tier, if ever.

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Originally Posted by Hioki

That's exactly why accuracy is a terrible stat. You should never have to budget yourself around a stat. Instead the stat should become less optimal than other stats but not a burden if you have more than you need. The current issue is: If you have too much you just wasted a better slot for secondaries, if you have to little you need to find more and will likely cause yourself in an overage. When a stat negatively impacts you for having it, it's bad design.

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Why? Why do all the secondaries need to be more stat = more good? Why is this bad design?

I can tell you why I think it's good design. I think it's good design because it forces decision-making upon the user. It creates incentive to mix-and-match their gear so they can juggle accuracy at near-cap as they gear up into their BiS pieces. It forces minor dilemmas such as "do I want to occasionally miss or waste a few points and never miss?" It creates a bit of depth for food choices as a set grows into more or less accuracy.

Without decision making or occasionally drawbacks, they may as well make every piece of gear have one stat, let's say "Goodness", and higher is better. Why bother with mixing and matching sub-optimal stats. Goodness rolls everything into benefit for you. But how horribly boring!

Anything, in my opinion, that generates discussion and allows players choice as to their performance, is better for the health of the game.

I hate to be "that guy", but...

World of Warcraft removed Accuracy as a stat a while back, and it was the best damned change the game has had in over half a decade.

Just do that. There are other stats one can min-max around.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Why? Why do all the secondaries need to be more stat = more good? Why is this bad design?

I can tell you why I think it's good design. I think it's good design because it forces decision-making upon the user..

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It doesn't force decision making. You're not making a decision.

You either have enough, or you don't. That isn't a decision. And in a game where buffs don't refresh, combos don't progress, and threat isn't produced on a miss, missing is not acceptable.

You either hit the cap, or you don't, and anything over the cap is just padding for when you kill this boss and move on to the next one. Accuracy is an outdated stat, and it needs to go. FF14 lacks interesting substats, and the effect they have on your character are often unnoticed. Even the most visible of them (Speed, since you can measure your GCD) doesn't give you a notable change without parsing except in rare circumstances (Like the bare minimums to do certain rotations, openers, etc)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It doesn't force decision making. You're not making a decision.

You either have enough, or you don't. That isn't a decision. And in a game where buffs don't refresh, combos don't progress, and threat isn't produced on a miss, missing is not acceptable.

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^

Hit rating made sense in WoW where 1) there were no combos, 2) abilities had reduced hit requirements, 3) off-hand attacks had higher hit requirements, and 4) there were numerous AA-based procs. In that sense a miss was typically far less detrimental, especially past the first plateau (main-hand abilities), so the value of hit rating quickly tapered off compared to other stats. You could go for further hit rating for the sake of proc consistency, which would in turn improve your rotational window usage, but if not for those windows you'd be better off in the long-term simply grabbing more haste or other damaging secondary stats.

FFXIV instead has 1 plateau, where a single can absolutely break rotation and retroactively cripple even prior GCDs by canceling/wasting combos. As such the only 'decision making' that comes into play is picking your gear (when you're not actually looting anything from progression content, thereby ignoring RNG) such that you are as tightly above accuracy cap as possible... Not sure if that's even worth counting.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Things and stuff.

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Just leave it alone. Its not worth it to argue over this. Let the thread march to the trash. If the devs want to respond, they will.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Just leave it alone. Its not worth it to argue over this. Let the thread march to the trash. If the devs want to respond, they will.

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While I'm certain you thought you were being cute please take your salt and vitriol and maybe turn it into something productive or discussion worthy. Thank you.

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Why? Why do all the secondaries need to be more stat = more good? Why is this bad design?

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Because the current design of every other stat follows this. This is one of the stat designs that doesn't need to be an outliner it needs to be useful instead of bloating the stat budget. It's more so exemplified that you HAVE to have it. There is no decision or theory crafting required around the stat. You either have enough or need to get more.

You don't take any calculated risks for having less than required because it's a larger liability than being over(missed procs, combo breakers). And when you're over it gives you absolutely no return and that's poor design. What that means is that you have to hit a very specific point in accuracy that you never miss but don't waste a single point over. That's not fun, it doesn't create an interesting stat, that doesn't encourage theory crafting, that simply sets a boundary on other stats. A boundary that you're already limited by with total stat budget. You're SOL either way you sit it.

When you approach if from a logical sense, many of our targets are not small bees or mandragoras. They are large creatures and people. The targets are easy enough to hit and we're considered a heroic paragon of ultimate lightness. Why would we be missing? deflection, parrying, riposte, glanced strike sure I can totally see all those things. Missing? Unlikely.