Idea for making the eso grind less mind numbing

My idea is maybe one patch they could release a single expert dungeon but that dungeon be a procedurally generated dungeon that changes layout and boss order (and maybe even bosses pulling from a pool of 6 or 9). that way the dungeon is never the same when you run it over and over again, and it stays fresh and new longer than the 2 dungeons that we have now did. I got burned out after the first 2 weeks on fractal and neverreap and I am sure that will happen again with the next 2.

another suggestion I thought of was to allow us to convert our unused law tomes into eso like they do when they phase out a tome. I dont have any other class at 60 and am close to 2000 law with nothing to spend it on cause i dont have the inventory space to store the gear til I get the class to 60. So I would like to be able to convert the law that i have to eso and still be able to farm law later when I get another class to 60

It wouldn't work cause all you'd be doing is making 1 dungeon that could be split into 2-3 dungeons. It's quite the waste of resources and for those maximizing they might just say "oh crud it started like this let's reset"

While the idea of procedural does sound nice there are a lot shortcomings to the concept that make it hard to implement. The idea behind roulette is that you've done the dungeon before and now you know everything to expect. If they implemented procedural, how would you implement the "roulette"? Would a player first have to spam the dungeons til they fought every boss once before it unlocked cause technically that's how roulette works atm, it works under the idea that you know everything so you can just roulette with others that know what they are doing and bam quick dungeon.

The reason it becomes "mind numbing" is simple

-Higher IL
-You know what to do

Guess what, those two issues will still happen in a procedural generated dungeons. Procedural be nothing different then doing one dungeons or the other the only "difference" would be say you have 6 sub bosses and 3 main bosses, then it's a pull for 2/6 and 1/3 but as a roulette once you've done all the fights at least once or twice it becomes clockwork to handle the mechanics.

A randomly generated dungeon is what they use in Action-RPGs like Diablo. This is a completely different type of game and a randomly generated dungeon would probably not work, or might create severe strain on the server for something that isn't that large.

Nice idea but I don't think it's meant for FFXIV, everything is pretty much linear.

There technically is some variety in having dungeons/roulettes for eso's, and with the coming of 3.1 we'll probably have more options to farm eso's.

Hey lovies I see you posted the idea.

And I'll be honest, i know a few MMO who do this.Mabinogi did this, and ff11 had something like this You traded itens and it would spawn different dungeons /boss /layout. In the case of ff11 they were player made dungeons based on preselected plates on a network system, It never really was the same, these do work. Also this could be not put in roulette and something preformed groups can do. Or df it, and you get a random dungeon and lay out.

He wasn't saying anything about this being hard or anything, just something to slow down burn out because farming the same 1-2 dungeons for hours on end is mind numbing for some. Having a slight change up in layout and bosses can change all that since it will be random on what you will get.
I would like to see this added, and could be its own thing to earn seals/tomes.Having more content is a good thing.

I also think we could benefit from the tome conversion, and add a gc seal one. Where we trade one you seal type for another when we switch grand company. Though it not hard to get seals, this would help make it easier

You guys should really red the full post he has 2 ideas, not just one. Please take a sec to comment on both idea not just one.

The best thing you have right now against "mind numbing" is PvP: no match is the same, there's always something going on. Ergo we need more randomness in dungeons as well.

Is the engine capable of accomplishing that? Do they perhaps create the maps this way? You'll need a huge set of rules so that things aren't created that you cannot finish.
With all the glitches right now, people walking outside of the designated areas, bosses breaking and only auto-attacking, etc. imagine all the things that can go wrong if stuff is created randomly.

I personally don't care about any of the Law or Poetics tomestones, have all my 60s geared and capped Law a long time ago. Converting Law into Eso would mean you can cap faster, maybe even right on Tuesday, depending on the conversion rate?

We have more dungeons at our disposal, what I'd like to see is the 51-59 (+ Research Facility) dungeons being used in the expert roulette. Make it optional even and reward Eso / Law instead of Exp at the end. Have a tomestone / time-spent-in-battle ration based reward.

Or just make harder dungeons which also breaks away from the normal formula... I mean, every dungeon is built up in the exact same way pretty much, and they're always made for very low ilvl.

When a new dungeon comes out, it should at the very least be like how it was to run Fractal and Neverreap for the first time, with very low ilvl. Only, you shouldn't just become over geared for it within a day of tomes farming or something...

Even the most casual players managed to get through those dungeons early on, and if something like this would create problems between more hardcore players and casual players, then they could create some ranking or something based on ilvl and maybe how much experience you have in the dungeons...

I don't know... but I do really hate that we're most likely not going to see much difference in ilvl requirements in the dungeons we have now, and the ones we will see in the last patch before 4.0... Well, there's going to be an increase, but we're already far ahead of the dungeons we have now, and our ilvl is going to increase at a higher rate than the requirements for the dungeons. At least if they stick to their formula, which they love to do.

EDIT: I know this won't fix the problem of getting bored with the dungeons after a while, but I see too many problems with the idea you've come up with, and I don't think it would work.

Mabinogi is a free to play Korean mmo built similar to ff11. So it is possible, and a conversion system would help people cap a tad bit faster, for those who don't play everyday or who do a lot of other stuff. I'm bigred's Gf and from a relationship POV, this would help us out so he caps his ESO faster so he can play with me more.

Also play mabinogi for 5min to get what he suggesting. Everyone's replies come off as you Don't really get what's being asked.

Have High level and leveling content reward 75 Esos each so you not have to run neverreap/fractal every day.

atm i just want anything but running DR expert....hell i would change 1 neverreap for a "lets find some more moogles" quest.... :(

I support procedural dungeon algorithms. They save time for the developers in the long run, and make the experience refreshing for the players.

Here's an interesting read on how one developer handles the approach:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/AAdon..._Algorithm.php

http://i.imgur.com/GKO8EUG.gif

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

Hey lovies I see you posted the idea.

And I'll be honest, i know a few MMO who do this.Mabinogi did this, and ff11 had something like this You traded itens and it would spawn different dungeons /boss /layout. In the case of ff11 they were player made dungeons based on preselected plates on a network system, It never really was the same, these do work. Also this could be not put in roulette and something preformed groups can do. Or df it, and you get a random dungeon and lay out.

He wasn't saying anything about this being hard or anything, just something to slow down burn out because farming the same 1-2 dungeons for hours on end is mind numbing for some. Having a slight change up in layout and bosses can change all that since it will be random on what you will get.
I would like to see this added, and could be its own thing to earn seals/tomes.Having more content is a good thing.

I also think we could benefit from the tome conversion, and add a gc seal one. Where we trade one you seal type for another when we switch grand company. Though it not hard to get seals, this would help make it easier

You guys should really red the full post he has 2 ideas, not just one. Please take a sec to comment on both idea not just one.

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Mostly because the second idea he has will come along knowing SE, every time a tomestone becomes obsolete, than you're allowed to exchange those for the next tier of tomestone, that's how it's always worked.

And just because randomly generated dungeons works for 1 game doesn't mean it will work for another. Plenty of people are complaining about FFXIV burn out, best thing you can do for yourself is take a break, play some other games.

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Originally Posted by NovaUltimatum

I support procedural dungeon algorithms. They save time for the developers in the long run, and make the experience refreshing for the players.

Here's an interesting read on how one developer handles the approach:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/AAdon..._Algorithm.php

http://i.imgur.com/GKO8EUG.gif

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omg the gif is really awesome *^*

I cant see how 20 minutes per day are a mindnumbing grind...

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

I cant see how 20 minutes per day are a mindnumbing grind...

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More mind-numbing for those that grind out all 450 tomes in one sitting, which of course happens because MMOs.

If you have enough gil (or know other 7 people) you could also grind out your esos with treasure hunts.
Or do PvP.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

another suggestion I thought of was to allow us to convert our unused law tomes into eso like they do when they phase out a tome. I dont have any other class at 60 and am close to 2000 law with nothing to spend it on cause i dont have the inventory space to store the gear til I get the class to 60. So I would like to be able to convert the law that i have to eso and still be able to farm law later when I get another class to 60

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You can buy first the upgrade items and the gears later the moment you have another job at 60.
Or save them up for the coming relic quests.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

More mind-numbing for those that grind out all 450 tomes in one sitting, which of course happens because MMOs.

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And grind red scrip for crafter and gatherer until 450 and nothing to do...

I would like some more variety, yes. I get ~15% of my Eso's from trial Roulette and the rest from Seal Rock - so I get a little more variety then the dungeon grinders...but:

A) Buff Eso income from leveling roulette (5? Seriously?)
B) Add in a Crystal Tower roulette that rewards Eso
C) Add in daily quests that reward Eso (I'm guessing 3.1 Beast tribe will reward Eso...if it is Law I have to seriously question SE's sanity)
D) Add in a weekly quest that allows you to convert 400 Centurio Seals for 50 Eso (makes hunts relevant again)

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Originally Posted by NovaUltimatum

I support procedural dungeon algorithms. They save time for the developers in the long run, and make the experience refreshing for the players.

Here's an interesting read on how one developer handles the approach:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/AAdon..._Algorithm.php

http://i.imgur.com/GKO8EUG.gif

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Its easy if you have programmers who know what they are doing!
I just dont trust the RNG algorithms of FFXIV, they better dont use such a thing to calculate dungeons too...

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

My idea is maybe one patch they could release a single expert dungeon but that dungeon be a procedurally generated dungeon that changes layout and boss order (and maybe even bosses pulling from a pool of 6 or 9). that way the dungeon is never the same when you run it over and over again, and it stays fresh and new longer than the 2 dungeons that we have now did. I got burned out after the first 2 weeks on fractal and neverreap and I am sure that will happen again with the next 2.

another suggestion I thought of was to allow us to convert our unused law tomes into eso like they do when they phase out a tome. I dont have any other class at 60 and am close to 2000 law with nothing to spend it on cause i dont have the inventory space to store the gear til I get the class to 60. So I would like to be able to convert the law that i have to eso and still be able to farm law later when I get another class to 60

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You could also make a giant dungeon that is actually really hard with randomly spawning bosses and wandering mobs which you could "fight other players" and groups for content and remove it from the duty finder and make killing bosses or players touching and moving levers change the zone's layout.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

More mind-numbing for those that grind out all 450 tomes in one sitting, which of course happens because MMOs.

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its their own fault if they make non mind numbing content mind numbing

It's been almost a week and I haven't touched my Expert Roulette a single day. I'm not even capped on Estorics gear for my main job, but I just can't bring myself to run those dungeons anymore. I think it's a combination of it being only 2 dungeons and the fact we've been doing the same thing for 2 years now. I just want a different way to get the highest tomestone. -_-

I was never a fan of procedurally generated levels with games that are better with handcrafted levels, and I consider FFXIV to be one of them. This isn't Diablo or Torchlight, it just won't work. I remember when they announced them for Bloodborne, boy was the Chalice a huge disappointment for almost everyone. To give an entire dungeon for it too? I'll pass.

How to make Esoteric grinding less mindnumbing? Easy, add them to more content. CT, each raid could give 40+ tomes. High level roulette, 50+. Low level roulette, 50+. You get the idea, this will give much more variety than a randomized dungeon that in theory will give more variety, but get stale due to the same environments repeated, same room structure, same mobs, same bosses. It will get old after 10-20 runs.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

its their own fault if they make non mind numbing content mind numbing

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Which is the whole point.

The way to make certain content less mind-numbing is...to not do that content exclusively until your eyes bleed.

I think the grind is nowhere near as mind-numbing as people say. The people that say that don't like to do the myriad other things available to them. That said, here are some great ideas:

Leave Expert as is. Grant a little more for low level roulette and grant 15 for main scenario roulette AT ANY LEVEL NO MATTER WHAT JOB YOU GO AS, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A LEVEL 60 CHARACTER. Main scenario is important, so this is great incentive to both level, AND get eso. PVP is a great way to cap eso. If you win, you should get 40 eso for winning. That's 60 eso a day, and people will actually try. Alex Raids are a great way to cap eso, both normal and savage, leave that unchanged. Implement a Raid and Extremes Roulette, allowing players to enter at level 60, and this roulette can give 60 and 40 eso respectively. This will include Crystal Tower (now an 8 man) and Coil Series, and the Extremes will include all old extreme trials (only excluding Bismarck and Ravana). Weekly Hunt Mark can give 30 eso, and As can give 5 and Ss can give 15. Lastly, maps: allow dragonskin maps to drop 5 eso (50% chance), 10 eso (25% chance), 15 eso (12.5% chance) and 25 eso (12.5% chance).

Trading in Law/20 is a good idea. 2000 law can become 100 eso.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Which is the whole point.

The way to make certain content less mind-numbing is...to not do that content exclusively until your eyes bleed.

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you can spend 20 min per day with expert for 75 pts, you can do pvp for 40 pts per day, you can farm a1+2 savage for 30 pts per run, or you can just run normal alex for 10 pts per run

there are plenty of ways to cap your eso

treasure maps, leveling and trial roulette also grant small amounts

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

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Alexander Normal isn't efficient, why do 7 Alexander runs when I can do one EX Roulette? Most people don't have Alexander Savage 1 and 2 on farm, and leveling + trial roulette give pathetic amounts of Esoterics. We do not have much alternatives to Neverreap, Fractal or Seal Rock. We have other options, but not alternatives that are just as efficient. Why is SE so reluctant to put Esoterics in other content in decent amounts to begin with, because we might run them all in one day and cap in one day? Good, I hate running DREX day in and day out, they still get my subscription money either way. I'd rather do a variety of content and cap in 2-3 days instead of running Neverreap 6 times a week.

well, its 3 times a week on average

anyway, play different classes if it bores you so much, it gives the runs way more varity

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Originally Posted by Azper

I think it's a combination of it being only 2 dungeons and the fact we've been doing the same thing for 2 years now. I just want a different way to get the highest tomestone. -_-

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The thing is, those 2 dungeons are already not the only content giving eso tomes.

I hope beast tribes are a bit more dynamic and fun than in the past, even challenging, maybe even about as hard as A ranks or Dragonskin Maps or in between so that being in a party is required; then they can justify giving 10-15 ESO each making it 60-90 Tomes a day