Summoners Overpowered in PvP

Am I the only one who thinks summoners are overpowered in PvP? They have massive bursts that gives me no time to chase them. They're the most job earning battle high state.

The real problem is Deathflare. Shouldn't be allow to critick in pvp cause their burst combo is stronger than a melee Lb.
The 3 dot spreading is ok since we can dispel it (with a long CD) on our own.

Yes sure that an SMN can you kill in faster than 15 sec. but 0 äther = 0 dmg. I am sure that every job have this heavy dmg rota.

Your biggest problem is your inexperience. I destroy SMN's with my ninja and mecha, so i do not understand what my enemys do.
Since i play FF as SMN, I losed maybe 15 1vs1 matches there where 2 ninjas who understand how to use silence, stun, bind and slow, 1 realy good bard which surprised me with his dmg (normal I eat every bard which cross my path) and some SMN and War.

The real unbalanced job is the WAR, high def, high dmg, high heal.
And there is a heavy differnece between melee vs war.

You will do easier pvp if you know enemys skills and cooldowns.

Check this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7vb...ature=youtu.be

Never have problem against ninja or warrior as a bard. i can kite them.
But Summoner got a very high burst while moving and from distance. That's the problem.

For exemple with my bard my big burst is : Bind target --- minuet activation --- Barrage+Empyreal Arrow (+ Sidewinder&farshot if they are up)
It's only physical dmg , i've to cast it, i've to be still standing, and it can't critic.
And i'm stick with 15 sec of minuet activated.

They are very low tank, decent sustained damage and a burst that is far lower than other classes

They dont get fever because they are overpowered, people think they are overpowered because people let them get fever

Its a case of a safe class being able to roam free and do what it wants without pressure because the average player in FL is bad, this is common for all casual game modes

Which distant job get a better burst ?

Balance in Pvp is not determined like it's in Pve.
Total dps is not important.
It's determined by survivability/ability to kill (not to deal damage)

The survivability is determined in pvp by :

Your defensiv CD
The range of your skill
Your ability to attack without casting

Your ability to kill is determined by how fast you're able to bring one target to 0 hp.

In pve your dps is important cause monsters aren't healed.
In pvp what is important is to be able to fastly reduce the number of ennemies---> your burst

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Redfame

Yes sure that an SMN can you kill in faster than 15 sec. but 0 äther = 0 dmg. I am sure that every job have this heavy dmg rota.

---

Every job has one, but SMN is typically the one that is both the most potent and reliable compared to melee (which of course requires you be in range, and warriors specifically have no gap closers), physical ranged (who suffers a damage penalty whenever they aren't within sweetspot range while working with cast times) and BLM (who requires either turreting or banking procs).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Redfame

Your biggest problem is your inexperience. I destroy SMN's with my ninja and mecha, so i do not understand what my enemys do.
Since i play FF as SMN, I losed maybe 15 1vs1 matches there where 2 ninjas who understand how to use silence, stun, bind and slow, 1 realy good bard which surprised me with his dmg (normal I eat every bard which cross my path) and some SMN and War.

---

This is circumstantial. You normally should not be pited in a 1v1 against any other melee in a large scale fight like frontlines (since your primary advantage is range and being behind the lines). And even then, 1v1ing against one of them as a ranged/caster is typically a death sentence, so it's more surprising that you can kill them rather them killing you, especially if they are the ones that get the jump on you.

Oh, and just for fun, silence doesn't stop a summoner's burst. The only thing it will stop them getting off tri-bind.

In something as hectic as frontlines, burst is definitely the best attribute to have when it comes to securing kills and blowing up a target.

But silence give you time to use own skills.

I'm not too worried about summoners in PvP. A lot of the time, they get target fixation and get killed pretty fast.

Dragoons, on the other hand......

They're overpowered. We can't do anything about them but my solution is try not to become their first target. Let them burst someone else then you can murder them like a little sheep the same way we used to bully them in Frontline Secure matches.

Once you see them Tri-Disaster someone, it's time to kick their butt.

They're actually not overpowered and here's why:

1. They have no defense at ALL
2. They have virtually no way to escape enemies when being pursued
3. If their Aetherflow stacks aren't available, they're pretty weak as their main damage component comes from their Aetherflow

So, if they didn't have these three major weaknesses, then I would agree their OP. But, that's not the case.

I can stop summoners easily with sleep, but melees are biggest problem since they have fetter ward that make them immune against any cc, weapon throw that remove sprint and make heavy, + charge. Thanks god 90% of melees have no idea what they are doing.

As a healer, I worry about anyone with a stun because I only have 1 Purify per 90 seconds. Also don't play PvP after a long day. When I'm tired, I actually feel bad for my team for sucking so much. But yeah, have a good DPS burst rotation, and if you kill the healer(s) first, summoners won't be there much longer.

I recommend if you have won more than 10 matches to go to the achievement person in Gridania and get your PvP helmet. Wear it. Gives you more overall stats and if you still having trouble and are not doing badly, consider it just being the other team is way more skilled than you are and bit the entire class is unbalanced. That is much more likely you know.

You know, I rarely ever see Monks in Frontlines anymore... Shame, I've certainly enjoyed watching Summoners squirm when Glory Slash/Retrogradation takes their stacks/trance away, and Monk can basically just spam One Ilm Punch to achieve that, rather than waiting on a lengthy cooldown and RNG to do it...

Another one of these threads...

Yes, they are op, but not on paper. They are op in the sense of inexperienced/dgaf/yolo players getting caught in their 60 sec CD burst rotation waayyy too much. It's a bit too easy for summoners to exploit these players. Skilled summoners eat these players up as nothing. In this sense, compared to other jobs, you may say they are op. In wolves den I guess they won't be. Time will tell.

In huge skirmishes, whenever you are hit with tri-disaster (dots from hell), just move in the opposite direction and you'll break their rotation.

Having some vitality accessories also helps.

Imo strength based warriors are the most op in frontline atm.

The problem is not their survability. It's the fact that they can just choose one guy, and decide to kill him in 5 sec at 25m while moving.
It's "very sad" for them to have to use there stacks for that, but... one guy just died without even facing his attacker.
Is that a japanese conception of pvp ? As long as your team win it's not important to be killed some times without possibilities to counter ?

Same thing for melee limit break. I'm 15m away when the animation of the lb is done i'm still OS. That's true skill man.

Warriors are quit independant in pvp but you can kite them or at least have some times to fight back. Even kill them if Push back is not up at that moment.
They are melee and supposed to be first attackers, it's normal they are tough.

Seriously... i'm used to deal with unbalance in mmo pvp. There are always... but concerning summoners it's exagerated.

I wonder what they say about it in Japanese section. They already remove CS from the healers cause they found it OP. Now that pvp is "popular" again with frontline, they may consider nerf them a little.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mclyde

They already remove CS from the healers cause they found it OP. Now that pvp is "popular" again with frontline, they may consider nerf them a little.

---

Do not assume that summoner being powerful vs bad players in a casual game mode is remotely the same as cleric stance, CS turned a healing, ccing tanking machine into a healing, ccing, tanking, high damage machine

FL is not the place to determine if summoners need to be nerfed, WD is where that will happen and not a moment earlier

Quote:

---

I wonder what they say about it in Japanese section

---

A mix of people complaining that its overpowered and should be removed, with alot of others arguing that it either doesnt need to be changed, or everyone should wat for wolves den (alot of them saying that they just have tanks nuke the summoner)

I don't think there are any truly OP jobs in frontlines tbh. Some are just easier to play and master. Like SMN...

I've PvPed on SMN before and when their burst rotation is on CD, they're useless. After they burst they sit around trying to kill steal with ruin 2... mostly. It's about 1 minute of being useless every time they finish their burst. I'd say that was a weakness if I ever saw one. Also their burst is wasted when their target is being healed/cleansed by a competent healer, even when they have battle fever. So basically sometimes when they unload their burst they're rewarded with no kill and that 1 minute downtime.

On a similar subject I've seen newbie DPS QQ about healers being unkillable, and while good healers are extremely hard to kill they're not unkillable. Not when everything they have is on CD, and they're focused by enough DPS or LBed at the right time. Sadly a lot of DPS don't know how to focus or refuse to.

The Summoner job has already been nerfed. It no longer has access to heavy from Miasma, the healing reduction debuff was lowered from 50% to 20%. Summoners cannot use Resurrection in PVP, and the recent reduction to the Purify cooldowns was directly targeting Summoners. Summoner's burst and mobility is the job's unique aspect, yet the community is trying to turn it into a problem.

Whine whine whine, oh no Big Bad Summoner is coming out of the woods to eat the noobs who can't use their pvp skills properly (or play pvp properly even), NERF THEM so they become absolutely useless! Really people, just learn to stay near your healers.
This non-stop whining about SMN being OP coming from players who most likely just jumped into Seal Rock with 0 pvp experience is really getting old. You wanna nerf SMN? Sure thing, but you nerf the melee LB too then, and fell cleave, along with lowerig stuns durations by half. Also please let's disable noct stance in pvp because I play SMN and /sob, I can't kill AST ;_; Life's unfair.
If people could actually read the other threads about this, who ALL have feedback from people who play SMN and who ALL expose the weaknesses of SMN, the world would be a better place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mclyde

The problem is not their survability. It's the fact that they can just choose one guy, and decide to kill him in 5 sec at 25m while moving.

---

I do the same thing on MCH. Only probelm wiith MCH burst is ricochet hitting other targets. :(

Perhaps MCH should be nerfed for being a range with a burst. lol.

I pvp as a SMN cause ppl simply do nothing to stop me lol

Tri disater and they run why not purify yourself and kill me without dots I have to do like what 3 pain flares to get DWT+deathflare...

Or the ppl who run back into the mass group of their GC ppl lol that's like giving a SMN everything they want...these are amongst the many mistakes ppl always make during pvp because SMNs are easy to kill I guess this is one of the elitist moments where they say "git gud" I believe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Houston009

I do the same thing on MCH. Only probelm wiith MCH burst is ricochet hitting other targets. :(

Perhaps MCH should be nerfed for being a range with a burst. lol.

---

Do you really play mch? Cause um yes they already do incur a nerf in PVP so what are you talking about?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoelNoel

NERF THEM but you nerf the melee LB too then

---

/thread





blablabla

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Do you really play mch? Cause um yes they already do incur a nerf in PVP so what are you talking about?

---

and it really isnt hard to stay within the outer sweet spot to keep most of that damage

stragius is making a joke that everyone wants smn nerfed, but mch has a larger burst in a shorter time so according to the thread it should also get nerfed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunako

I can stop summoners easily with sleep, but melees are biggest problem since they have fetter ward that make them immune against any cc, weapon throw that remove sprint and make heavy, + charge. Thanks god 90% of melees have no idea what they are doing.

---

There's not much you can do in 5 seconds. It takes you 2 seconds to notice you're being hit by a SMN, and the next few seconds you're gone.

You can Purify the DoT's. (If you Purify fast enough Fester will do 0 damage, and not give a stack of Aethertrail...meaning no Dreadwyrm anyway.)
You can remove Aetherflow if you are a Monk/Paladin/Astrologian

If Tri-Disaster is on cooldown already, you can interrupt all cast times with simple auto attacks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pomelo

You can Purify the DoT's. (If you Purify fast enough Fester will do 0 damage, and not give a stack of Aethertrail

---

This is why it's better for SMNs to actually dot the pets in a large crowd (since they can't be purified), this then lets you contagion the pet before using bane to spread it to the crowd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NovaUltimatum

This is why it's better for SMNs to actually dot the pets in a large crowd (since they can't be purified), this then lets you contagion the pet before using bane to spread it to the crowd.

---

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2c65a7cf83.gif

I think SMN's are fine, sure if you encounter them in openfield as an melee w/o proper CD's then they will propably toast you if you cant find any LoS. But AST is something i still find pretty unkillable, is there even chance to kill them in 1v1? i mean there are no casts to interrupt and if you fail to burst them inside stun-lock window might aswell forget him and go for other target. Any tips against AST is welcomed ^^

PS: On team fight scenarios its imo actually better to CC healers and burst SMN/BLM's as both deals pretty heavy damage if you let them free cast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pomelo

You can Purify the DoT's. (If you Purify fast enough Fester will do 0 damage, and not give a stack of Aethertrail...meaning no Dreadwyrm anyway.)
You can remove Aetherflow if you are a Monk/Paladin/Astrologian

If Tri-Disaster is on cooldown already, you can interrupt all cast times with simple auto attacks

---

The same can be said for MCH's BtE and warrior's holmgang. The counter-play is not exclusive against summoner's burst or strong points.

And honestly, you'd be a damned fool if you're trying to hardcast something out in the open like that, and typically BLMs are higher on the interrupt list anyway because their stationary dps when given the chance is pretty absurd compared to a SMN's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CeveArthu

and it really isnt hard to stay within the outer sweet spot to keep most of that damage

---

Speaking from a perspective of a MCH, this is not always the case or that straight forward. It's still a damage penalty if we're attacking from further than the sweetspot range even with GB, and its a signifcant loss in damage if it's closer than sweetspot. The other half of the damage is hitting with BtE, which can be finkity a times because your only reliable setup is bind, which lately has given me less-than-ideal potency boosts in my roulette.

Compared to a SMN's burst, it's not as potent, the effective cooldown is longer, effective range is lower and it's a bit more situational (especially with ricochet getting full potency), but it's faster.

The frantic and faster-pacing in seal rock naturally allows for the classes who are more motile and can still safely deal damage in large crowds to shine, and some are better than others in this regard. It might not be the case in wolf's den, but honestly wolves' den is a long ways away (3.2 last I remembered) and it's the only content that's still active for ranking up.

Hi, Black mage here just to say hello, the turrets can kill too!...


I think that SMN is now the new 'trending', the fashion, all the opposite that in 50 modes where using SMN really required skill, it doesn't require it that much anymore, most of SMN just wait for the minute burst and go, meanwhile they are useless...

Not considering them OP though, even if at the start of seal rock I thought it.

Aetherflow and CDs are just a poor excuse to defend the job. Other jobs have CD too.

and SMN CDs are ridiculously short.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evangela

Aetherflow and CDs are just a poor excuse to defend the job. Other jobs have CD too.

and SMN CDs are ridiculously short.

---

But you can not dispell other job "cds" like aetherflow. Anyway, smn do not really not have that much control, cc and interrupts like other jobs.

This is example how much cc can help killing your opponent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbyf5KiRHVY

They have really nothing that will help them escape from pursuers. BLM has two Sleeps, Lethargy (Heavy/Slow), two shields (Manawall, Manaward), two binds (Freeze and Blizz II) and a teleportation move (though useless if there are no party members near) - SMNs have none of this, other than Tri-bind which has a cast time. That is a pretty major weakness, and weakness enough to consider them pretty well balanced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

They have really nothing that will help them escape from pursuers. BLM has two Sleeps, Lethargy (Heavy/Slow), two shields (Manawall, Manaward), two binds (Freeze and Blizz II) and a teleportation move (though useless if there are no party members near) - SMNs have none of this, other than Tri-bind which has a cast time. That is a pretty major weakness, and weakness enough to consider them pretty well balanced.

---

Swiftcast tri-bind. And even then, a lot of the examples you listed for BLM also has cast times so I don't think you can really apply the cast-time part exclusively to SMN.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunako

But you can not dispell other job "cds" like aetherflow. Anyway, smn do not really not have that much control, cc and interrupts like other jobs.

---

In practice this hardly ever happens because PLD's effet is tied to a knockback (which is better saved for...knocking people off), MNK is limited to a stance, and AST is on long cooldown. And even then, this isn't exclusive to SMN since MCH ammo and enochian can be removed in the same manner (which again, doesn't occur very frequently to actually mean much due to the circumstances tied to it)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunako

This is example how much cc can help killing your opponent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbyf5KiRHVY

---

It's also an example of a healer begging to be killed because they're literally by themselves against two other dps, not to mention he stopped lustrating himself after the first one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elim

tl;dr
SMNs have strengths and weaknesses. They've also been nerfed many times. Their beastly burst and mobility is what makes them unique. Without either they wouldn't be competitive in PvP.

---

Their weaknesses are also ones that are not exclusive to themselves, but applicable to ranged dps as a whole. BLM's CC are also tied to cast times and gets interrupted without some buffer skill (be it surecast, swiftcast or Equanimity), the only ranged job that has a stun is MCH (unless you count the egis), BRD and MCH have cooldowns on their bind which can be ruined by fetter ward or counter-binded if they were escaping another caster.

The matter of fact is, the burst and mobility is a shared trait between the ranged classes (excluding BLM since they're contingent on procs and can be unreliable/unsteady at times). SMN just happens to be the best at it. Outside of burst, BRD and MCH's sustained dps becomes inconsistent at best due to ranged penalty and if high ground is applicable, the best they're good for is being an interrupt bot on the enemy's BLM. SMN's dps, albeit low, is consistent, sustained through DoTs, and they can be supplemented with tri-bind caster LB combo, especially if they're fighting on a strategic point.

And it also has part to do with the environment they're in as I mentioned before. Whether or not everything should be balanced between frontlines or WD is another thing, but we're not getting a WD update until 3.2.

Okay. Lets pretend they take away SMNs mobility and burst DPS. They just do turreted/sustained DPS(and maybe a minor bit of burst) now. They can still get kills, but what will make them unique/competitive? Why choose them over other DPS?

Their only means of getting away from an attacker is a casted bind that can be interrupted by an auto attack unless you waste an extra cooldown on it. They have no stuns. They have no heavy. They have no gap closer like melee do. They have no defensive cooldowns. They cannot res in PvP and haven't been able to for awhile. Their healing debuff was nerfed awhile back and is pretty much nothing but a minor inconvenience most healers wont even notice. They're ranged, but so are BLMs, BRDs and MCH. They have a large AOE LB that, if coordinated, can destroy a team, but so do BLMs.

tl;dr
SMNs have strengths and weaknesses. They've also been nerfed many times. Their beastly burst and mobility is what makes them unique. Without either they wouldn't be competitive in PvP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

snip

---

SMN DPS really isn't sustained in PvP...dots get cleansed pretty quickly. Their dots between burst probably wont kill anyone, but they're great for fluffing numbers. BLMs have the same supplement for their DPS. Also BLMs heavy/sleep/bind can be used for many other strategic reasons. They're more useful than tri-bind because they apply to multiple targets. Another reason to use BLMs over SMNs, if SMN is nerfed in the way I posted. I could address more points, but whether I agree with your points or not, you basically want SMNs nerfed because you think their burst is the best out of the ranged? Am I understanding this correctly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Swiftcast tri-bind. And even then, a lot of the examples you listed for BLM also has cast times so I don't think you can really apply the cast-time part exclusively to SMN.

---

And once the enemy Purifies your Tri-bind, you have nothing left as a SMN. BLM also has their shields, their Lethargy, their teleport and their Nightwing (sleep), all of which are instant. I am not saying BLM doesn't have cast times. My point was illustrating that SMN has one trick up their sleeve to escape from an enemy(s), while BLM has many. All of this was to show why I do not think a SMN is OP - because they do have noticeable weaknesses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

And once the enemy Purifies your Tri-bind, you have nothing left as a SMN. BLM also has their shields, their Lethargy, their teleport and their Nightwing (sleep), all of which are instant. I am not saying BLM doesn't have cast times. My point was illustrating that SMN has one trick up their sleeve to escape from an enemy(s), while BLM has many. All of this was to show why I do not think a SMN is OP - because they do have noticeable weaknesses.

---

Are they purifying your tri-bind or your tri-disaster though (if we're speaking strictly on escapes, then this is an isolated scenario in PvP and while I'll conceded that BLM has a bit more options in that regard, its hardly ever applicible, especially when I'm on the end that any dps that gets caught with their pants down would be a dead man)? Is not the same once nightwing (which has a fairly long cooldown no less). Even with noticeable weaknesses as you put it, it's not all applicable, or at least glaring to the fact its incredibly detrimental to the SMN when it's in practice. The shields at best would delay your death unless there's a healer nearby (which would then be very circumstantial, and isn't too frequent.)

Quote:

---

SMN DPS really isn't sustained in PvP...dots get cleansed pretty quickly. Their dots between burst probably wont kill anyone, but they're great for fluffing numbers. BLMs have the same supplement for their DPS. Also BLMs heavy/sleep/bind can be used for many other strategic reasons. They're more useful than tri-bind because they apply to multiple targets. Another reason to use BLMs over SMNs, if SMN is nerfed in the way I posted. I could address more points, but whether I agree with your points or not, you basically want SMNs nerfed because their burst is the best out of the ranged? Am I understanding this correctly?

---

Their DoT DPS is a lot more than what I can speak for un-sweetspotted MCH. It won't kill well enough, but it's still damage that ends up needing to be healed (whereas fluff numbers would be things like fire II or bishop turret) or finishing off someone that survived your initial burst (which again, is a lot more than I can speak for a BRD/MCH that has to turn off WM/GB and attack from less-than-ideal) Cleansing takes a GCD on any healer regardless of its cast time; GCD used on cleansing is GCD not used for healing. Also, tri-bind hits multiple targets in the same manner as nightwing, so I can't truly say that BLM has a one up over that (even if they do have two abilities that can do, whats the practical standpoint of that and does it actually mean anything in practice).

A lot of things comes together that it's not just SMN's burst, but it's also the fact that the other ranged classes have burst and not much else beyond that. Alongside with that, SMN does not necessarily have that many meaningful weaknesses or downsides (since we are on the side of debating their survivability and escape, I hope I'm making myself clear that I really do not believe that SMN is any-more-or-less prone to dying than BLM, BRD or MCH in a given situation). You could say they have no escapes, but how often does that come into play? If you're with your alliance, no melee is realistically haphazardly jump/charge in, that's the equviliant of sticking their hands in a active blender.

What I'd like to see is have meaningful physical/magic defense setup. The way it is right now, the casters and healers have better resistance toward magic, but they also have lower hp pools (accounting the same amount of fending accessories are being used for comparison). To that sense and from previous experience, the healers are not dying (if they die at all) to me any easier than they are dying to a SMN (or a turreting BLM for that matter)'s burst. While melee in general have a better resistance toward physical damage (and especially DRG, and tanks, who typically have higher hp pools and more resistance in regards to the latter) making SMN's burst more effective at killing melee and especially more effective on killing tanks (BH/BF warriors specifically). The current setup of fights allow for SMN's burst to be the most versitile while minimizing their weaknesses. I'm not disagreeing that they ahve less CC/escapes compared to the other classes, but I just don't think it's applicable for it to be meaningful. A direct damage nerf would only solve one end (SMN's being upmost strongest) while exasperating the other issues (healers/astros not dying and making warriors even more fierce)

Honestly, you sound like you are arguing for the sake of arguing.