Looks like PLDs are clearing A4s.

http://youtu.be/ZFOGI31CNVc

Well the first thing I have to say is....I feel bad for talking about them without someone from their raid group being here. I don't hold any ill will in my heart or mean to cause any drama with the words I say here, but from what I can tell:

Just like A3S when it was brand new, with a Paladin in the party each and every single person was/is walking on pins and needles with the best equipment to get the task done. I'd wager if each person were to make just two mistakes (whether it be weaponskills, cures, defensive cooldowns, placement and positioning, etc,) they will have caused the group to fail. It requires nothing short of perfection on every single attempt to ensure that it gets done, down to the very distance each person runs during X mechanic; which brings me to my next point. From what I can observe in videos and the stream the tanks have had to stay in their DPS stances for more than 80% of the encounter. That means 3.5 legs, the head, and all adds were dealt with while they were at their most vulnerable in order to complete the floor. I admit, they did switch to tank stances intermittently but a large....and at least from me, I mean a disturbingly large majority of the time they weren't in tanks stances. Throughout most of their attempts the tanks lost aggro to one another and the healers at times which caused the group to fail. I'd say the amount of wiggle room with a PLD/WAR right now is thinner than a human hair as compared to WAR/DRK. They're in the same position Zdenka and Blue Gartr were in with A3S. Too much time invested in attaining absolute perfection to give up.

Furthermore, I'd wager if you watch DRK/WAR setups complete A4S the entirety of the encounter will seem more structured, more predictable, and less strenuous to every player. While it might not seem like it, that's what the community is caught up on when regarding clears with PLD. It requires perfection in every sense of the word for it to even be possible....and that's with a Warrior (who brings the best possible toolkit to the encounter) as the other tank. I shudder to think of how DRK/PLD would perform.

Can it be done is the question everyone is asking.....this is proof that it can be.....at a later date (week/s at best and month/s at worst,) with an exponentially larger learning curve and performance demand. I can't help but commend them for beating it even just once and they provide the sort of group dynamic everyone should strive for when raiding. You can tell they care for one another, you can tell they're all nervous, you can tell they don't want to fail each other but they're ready to just keep trying and enjoy living. I just wish it wasn't so stressful for them.

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...l&spec=Paladin

Four in total so far, probably a bit more, unless every successful PLD has logged (maybe? Not sure).

FFLogs still isn't that big and no good source for an absolute number of clears. There are only ~5000 entries for A1S, which cleary way more players have cleared (about 60000 at the time the census was updated).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKsS14fBZw

Another clear, PLD PoV.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

FFLogs still has only a few Users. There are only ~5000 entries for A1S on that site.

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You're correct. But in the context of AS4, I'd be willing to wager far more successful groups would be logging than not.

More 'casual' raiders aren't even aware of sites like FFlogs. Serious ones generally put logs up once progression is over.

Just a gut feeling but I'd say FFlogs probably has about 80%+ of all (English?) A4s kills. Not sure how Japan is factored in, haven't spent much time looking it over.

Well all the A4S kills with a PLD on FFlogs are from japanese servers.

Are they forced to use our alphabet for their names? I've never seen one without English characters. Maybe there is no distinction then.

But what I meant was that the JP speaking groups might have their own space for this stuff.

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

Well the first thing I have to say is....

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I think you're underestimating how much of a coordinated song and dance A4S is. DRK only makes things marginally easier with DA + Dark Mind, it doesn't take away the stress at all. Every mechanic has to be handled near flawlessly to meet the DPS check and allow for the sacrifices in the last phase, on top of the healers having very little mana to work with to rectify any mistakes. PLD certainly isn't optimal in terms of mitigation for this floor, but it's by no means a massive detriment.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

PLD certainly isn't optimal in terms of mitigation for this floor, but it's by no means a massive detriment.

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but not imposible as many of in this forum say isnt?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think you're underestimating how much of a coordinated song and dance A4S is. DRK only makes things marginally easier with DA + Dark Mind, it doesn't take away the stress at all. Every mechanic has to be handled near flawlessly to meet the DPS check and allow for the sacrifices in the last phase, on top of the healers having very little mana to work with to rectify any mistakes. PLD certainly isn't optimal in terms of mitigation for this floor, but it's by no means a massive detriment.

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Yeah I can see the kick in the pants healers have to deal with. I won't lie, I don't have the skill to do this even if I was BiS; also yeah, I do underestimate what A4s requires (you can tell as much by what I'm wearing on the lodestone, which makes for a good laugh too!) I can agree only a few things need to be changed for Paladin (I feel like a moron for making a suggestion thread a ways back.) Thankfully though, I'm not being paid to make those changes.

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

Can it be done is the question everyone is asking.....this is proof that it can be.....at a later date (week/s at best and month/s at worst,) with an exponentially larger learning curve and performance demand. I can't help but commend them for beating it even just once and they provide the sort of group dynamic everyone should strive for when raiding. You can tell they care for one another, you can tell they're all nervous, you can tell they don't want to fail each other but they're ready to just keep trying and enjoy living. I just wish it wasn't so stressful for them.

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A4S is extremely stressful and demanding not matter which tanks you bring.

Edit: And to point one thing out, there are A4S clears with WAR/DRK on fflog which had quite a bit less tank dps contribution than this group.

I'm still looking for a DRK + PLD video. If you find one please post it:D

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Originally Posted by Billeffingmurray

I'm still looking for a DRK + PLD video. If you find one please post it:D

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GL with that probably won't find any until the entire group can compensate the lost from not bringing a war and having a PLD

and even then a war has a obligate spot in the raid since they have everything and they all need a war but then everything is balance and the other tank classes aren't "bad" at all... (notice sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

GL with that probably won't find any until the entire group can compensate the lost from not bringing a war and having a PLD

and even then a war has a obligate spot in the raid since they have everything and they all need a war but then everything is balance and the other tank classes aren't "bad" at all... (notice sarcasm)

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I just wonder if any groups have had the stones to give it a real shot since the first few weeks. It becomes more and more possible with each passing week.

I think those videos are a good example of how PLD should be played in Alexander, compared to how people are actually playing them. PLD Sword Oath DPS isn't far off from WAR/DRK OT, and those PLDs are sitting in Sword Oath for a lot of the fight. They're also having the WAR open the fight instead of the PLD, so when it's time to swap the PLD doesn't need Halone for enmity. There isn't going to be much of a difference in DRK/WAR vs PLD/WAR in damage, and the PLD group has access to 2 Halloweds in such a long fight.

Lets push it even harder.... A4S with no War and no Sch.

Looking at the logs it appears that DPS are pretty balanced with a possible issue for MCH. There is clearly a problem with tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by Billeffingmurray

I just wonder if any groups have had the stones to give it a real shot since the first few weeks. It becomes more and more possible with each passing week.

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highly doubt someone will change a war for a pld...there's no reason for that beside asking for more difficulty...

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Originally Posted by Launched

There isn't going to be much of a difference in DRK/WAR vs PLD/WAR in damage.

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notice how you only mention DRK/WAR or PLD/WAR but no DRK/PLD see where the problem is?

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

notice how you only mention DRK/WAR or PLD/WAR but no DRK/PLD see where the problem is?

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So bring a NIN, it'll only do a tiny bit less DPS than a group with a WAR. MCH/BRD needs a DRG to do max DPS, BLM/SMN needs a BRD. Melee can get extra DPS from a MCH. Plenty of group compositions need specific jobs to do max DPS, it's not just tanks.

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Originally Posted by RocheKat

Lets push it even harder.... A4S with no War and no Sch.

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It'll probably happen just for the novelty, but this is the problem with designing carbon-copy classes.

DRK is just a PLD who specializes in mitigating magical damage.

AST is just a WHM with card buffs.

There are only two slots for tanks and healers, and since DRK/PLD and AST/WHM fill the same niche they end up competing for one of the slots. The more "unique" of the three, WAR and SCH, gain a guaranteed spot due to poor, or rather unimaginative, class design.

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Originally Posted by Launched

So bring a NIN, it'll only do a tiny bit less DPS than a group with a WAR. MCH/BRD needs a DRG to do max DPS, BLM/SMN needs a BRD. Melee can get extra DPS from a MCH. Plenty of group compositions need specific jobs to do max DPS, it's not just tanks.

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this is not the case DPS has tons of variation, there are 7 DPS not the same as 3 tanks, with dps you will get more benefit if you bring other complementary dps that's true but with only 3 choices of tanks 1 being less than the other 2 just makes a clear vision of imbalance classes making 1 class not being optimal when you can pick the other 2, dps don't have this issue, in fact all dps are pretty well balance and regarthless of how you make your composition along as you have your proper melee,range,caster comp you can't go wrong... again this is not the situation with tanks with only 2 spot and 3 tank WAR being an already secure spot giving then only 1 spot for 2 classes now add that 1 of those 2 classes perform better than the other then get 1 class that will get push out over time if this imbalance is not fixed, and It shouldn't be like that, one class cannot out cast 2 other classes, they all should be able to be paired with any composition and anyone with a sane mind will never replace a war with a pld or a drk...

this also applies to astro.


EDIT: @AIRSWIMMER made and excellent point to that just add to this mess...

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PLD certainly isn't optimal in terms of mitigation for this floor, but it's by no means a massive detriment.

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This is why not one Paladin was able to clear without all DPS in full i210 at a dead minimum, right?

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

This is why not one Paladin was able to clear without all DPS in full i210 at a dead minimum, right?

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ZZZzzzzzzzzz

e: I guess I'll answer, just to give this post some meaning. Mitigation does not somehow revolve around DPS having better gear in A4S. You get the same mechanics unless you are beating way ahead of enrage, which no one is or has been. The problem was that DRK was, for all intents and purposes, better than PLD for progressing in A4S - it had better damage and better mitigation, thus it was brought for every clear attempt by any group who had a PLD willing to switch to DRK (which was most that were on A4S).

Full i210 is also the maximum possible. I assume that was a joke, but the hyperbole is getting ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

ZZZzzzzzzzzz

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Thanks for your well constructed and thoughtful post, as usual.

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Full i210 is also the maximum possible. I assume that was a joke, but the hyperbole is getting ridiculous.

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How is it hyperbole when Paladin groups have to have DPS in best-in-slot sans weapons to beat A4S? It can't be hyperbole when it's fact, do you understand this?

Aaaaaaaaand we have another thread that gets derated by saltiness and hyperboles.

It sounds stupid because it is stupid, yes, you're getting it now. One of the first Paladin kills linked had the Paladin finish the fight at 811 DPS and his group used AST and NIN. Currently, I'm maintaining that on DRK, with extremely liberal usage of Grit throughout A4S and not really breaking a sweat with no AST and no NIN. In that kill video, the Paladin was Sword Oath for 80% of the fight, whereas I use Grit simply because it's safer with Reducible Complexity/Hydrothermal Missile damage lining up with each other.

Nothing changed in my play from when I was a Paladin, and I had less gear when I started as a Dark Knight than I do now yet my DPS went up significantly. The damage difference is probably about ~150 dps under equivalent circumstances for A4S, and that's the raid DPS difference of several weeks of drops. I don't know how this isn't adding up to you, maybe because you don't actually raid.

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

From what I can observe in videos and the stream the tanks have had to stay in their DPS stances for more than 80% of the encounter.

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I just beat A4S on pld the other night and while I did spend some time in Sword Oath, I don't think it was 80%. I spent a lot of the fight in Shield Oath including the entire last phase. Pld just wasn't viable for World First clears and that doesn't even impact the majority of the population. This far into the gear grind any good group can beat this with a pld.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...l&spec=Paladin

Four in total so far, probably a bit more, unless every successful PLD has logged (maybe? Not sure).

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There are probably a lot more. I've never even heard of this site and cleared on pld.

I still find it humorous that people are soo resistant to potential PLD changes when these PLD kills just began surfacing this week. People (myself included) are gearing their second jobs with esoteric gear so of course PLD is viable now. Also- "dps dps blah blah blah" still ignoring the raid wide damage reduction components of both war and drk which are arguably essential in any self respecting raid progression group.

...I don't get the meaning of this thread, or what it is suppose to prove. Praise PLDs that they can do A4S and show we were wrong saying PLD is behind to the other two tanks in Alex Sav, or show that Warrior is always mandatory in a raid group, or to just show PLDs are just behind the curve between the other two tanks, and are only clearing now. PLDs yes have been clearing since like end of last week as far as I know of, but that is the thing. They are heavily "geared" for the fight now with a lot of thier slots with ilvl210 gear minus weapon and whatever.

Basically it's the same deal with Warriors in 2.0...yes they could beat T5 pre 2.1, but they had to be overgeared for the fight in ilvl90 gear, but the encounter will still remain harder versus bring a different class. PLD still needs adjustments and that is just the reality of the situtation.

I distinctly remember there was a group that beat T5 with double WAR shortly before the 2.1 buffs. It didn't mean PLD vs. WAR was balanced, and WAR was appropriately adjusted in 2.1.

You're very involvement there as a Paladin means everyone has to work harder or it will take longer, no matter how much you wanna pretend that it doesn't.

PLD is like a sinking boat peeps say is OK while they drag it across the shallow river -hell it might be a wet road-, and they intended to bring it to the raging sea as is. So they did and it snapped in half under all the weight!

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

Are they forced to use our alphabet for their names? I've never seen one without English characters. Maybe there is no distinction then.

But what I meant was that the JP speaking groups might have their own space for this stuff.

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I *want* to say that Roman letters for names are enforced, but I'm not 100% of that.

Other games are different, WoW's Asian clients support Korean and Chinese. Not sure if there's much of a playerbase in Japan.

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Originally Posted by Launched

I think those videos are a good example of how PLD should be played in Alexander, compared to how people are actually playing them. PLD Sword Oath DPS isn't far off from WAR/DRK OT, and those PLDs are sitting in Sword Oath for a lot of the fight. They're also having the WAR open the fight instead of the PLD, so when it's time to swap the PLD doesn't need Halone for enmity. There isn't going to be much of a difference in DRK/WAR vs PLD/WAR in damage, and the PLD group has access to 2 Halloweds in such a long fight.

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Now if only my threat in Sword Oath wasn't garbage and my oaths didn't trigger GCD and break combos.

Hello,

I'm the Paladin in the first video. I thought I'd make a few comments.

First of all, I do still believe PLD needs an adjustment. I also think Dark Knight and WAR need some adjustment; DRK works well in Alexander, but they could never really design a fight like Twintania and pretend it's balanced for DRK and WAR is the only tank you'll see in every clear. I've made a thread talking about the types of changes I would like to see, but it was better received in Japanese...

Regarding A4 specifically, because most attacks don't actually come from the Manipulator I think that the INT debuff only works on 4 attacks: Hydrothermic Missile, Seed of the Sky, Perpetual Ray, and Mortal Revolution. You can use Divine Veil on the last of these and the other three should not hit the party at all, but of course there was no way to know that until we saw all of the fight so you still have to bring the debuff along. The main physical attack, Katstrahl, can be dodged, so all the debuffs are almost entirely useless in this fight. I personally think this is bad design and they should have made the jobs so that they don't have to design fights in a way that removes the value of almost all utility skills.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

snip.

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I hope they add statis sword. Would be pretty bad ass.

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Originally Posted by Seku

I hope they add statis sword. Would be pretty bad ass.

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It would be the dream, but there's no way SE cares enough about the players...or has the money lying around to make a new animation until an expansion. I am hoping for a PLD version of Scourge or Fracture that uses MP instead of TP with a recycled animation while realistically expecting some half-assed fix that doesn't work half the time like they did for DRK with Blood Weapon.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

It would be the dream, but there's no way SE cares enough about the players...or has the money lying around to make a new animation until an expansion. I am dreaming of a PLD version of Scourge or Fracture that uses MP instead of TP while realistically expecting some half-assed fix that doesn't work half the time like they did for DRK with Blood Weapon.

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Would be, I'd personally like to see a different stance on PLD since they already started pulling away from past versions of WAR and DRK. As for the money, it actually kinda makes me wonder how much they put into development and keeping the severs up.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think you're underestimating how much of a coordinated song and dance A4S is. DRK only makes things marginally easier with DA + Dark Mind, it doesn't take away the stress at all. Every mechanic has to be handled near flawlessly to meet the DPS check and allow for the sacrifices in the last phase, on top of the healers having very little mana to work with to rectify any mistakes. PLD certainly isn't optimal in terms of mitigation for this floor, but it's by no means a massive detriment.

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Its not a question of mitigation but the DPS check, and DRK outdoes PLD DPS by a decent amount out of tank stance and by a landslide in tank stance (outdoing even WAR, if the slashing debuff is up on the DRK's target). I'd also say that Delirium is a much bigger deal there than DA DM.

DRK is a god as a DPS MT right now because they have infinite mana, hence why the dps is going to be way higher as an MT.

On A3S though if I go PLD, my WHM will dps for the first 2 mins of that fight until the hand splits which compensates a little bit for the missing DRK damage.

but in a fight that lasts longer than 5 mins whm dps and pld dps cannot match what a drk/whm or war/whm can do and still tank and heal each other like their roles imply.