[Suggestion] Make Stone II and Stone III into the same skill.

This is more of an issue when syncing to anything before acquiring Stone III.

Why not make it so that Stone III was a trait which increased Stone II damage after you obtain it.

This way, whether you're synced or not, your main Single Target DPS spell wouldn't need to change.

Current state:
Get synced, swap out Stone III for Stone II on hotbar.

Proposed state:
Synced or not, Stone II remains on hotbar.

Guess we can use something similar on AST as well. With Malefic 1 & 2.

if you dont use <tt> you can just create a makro for both (and even stone 1)

Code:

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/micon "stone III"
/merror
/ac "stone III" <t>
/ac "stone II" <t>
/ac "stone" <t>

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those kind of makros sometimes have problems though so you cast stone 2 at lvl 60 since the first command didnt go off for some reason. but someone mentioned before repeating each command a few times fixes this

Code:

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/micon "stone III"
/merror
/ac "stone III" <t>
/ac "stone III" <t>
/ac "stone III" <t>
/ac "stone II" <t>
/ac "stone II" <t>
/ac "stone II" <t>
/ac "stone" <t>

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would be crazy to do something like that for <tt> makros though so im not using it.
but whats the problem with all 3 stone skills on the bar, im using 4 skill bars anyway just for combat/healing (playing on pc)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deos

if you dont use <tt> you can just create a makro for both (and even stone 1)

Code:

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/micon "stone III"
/merror
/ac "stone III" <t>
/ac "stone II" <t>
/ac "stone" <t>

---

those kind of makros sometimes have problems though so you cast stone 2 at lvl 60 since the first command didnt go off for some reason. but someone mentioned before repeating each command a few times fixes this

Code:

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/micon "stone III"
/merror
/ac "stone III" <t>
/ac "stone III" <t>
/ac "stone III" <t>
/ac "stone II" <t>
/ac "stone II" <t>
/ac "stone II" <t>
/ac "stone" <t>

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would be crazy to do something like that for <tt> makros though so im not using it.
but whats the problem with all 3 stone skills on the bar, im using 4 skill bars anyway just for combat/healing (playing on pc)

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I did the same but had to problem that stone II sometimes casted instead of Stone III, thanks for a solution to the issue ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Why not make it so that Stone III was a trait which increased Stone II damage after you obtain it.

This way, whether you're synced or not, your main Single Target DPS spell wouldn't need to change.

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It was probably for the sake of stubborn consistency. Malefic II and Boil have almost no reason to ever be replaced by their former direct damage abilities either. Deliverance could have just as easily been done by making Wrath stackable outside of Defiance, with Wrath changing from crit to parry stacks while in Defiance, Fel Cleave and Decimate locked out while in Defiance and Inner Beast and still limited to Defiance. Inner Beast could have easily turned into Fel Cleave (or have its effects) just by leaving Defiance, gaining 200 potency but losing its additional effects, and Steel Cyclone into Decimate, gaining 80 potency but losing its enmity modifier. Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust could have easily been the same button, as a DRG can already hit both keys simultaneously or macro them together (though they'd lose queue advantage) to always get the correct one (the only one available). The only reason they aren't... is probably that "Three to four new abilities and two to three new traits per job!" sounds less attractive to most than "Five new abilities for each job!"

Needless to say, I'm all for improved macro-ability of these abilities, so that we're not having to toss 'throw-back' abilities onto our hotbars again every sync.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"Three to four new abilities and two to three new traits per job!" sounds less attractive to most than "Five new abilities for each job!"

Needless to say, I'm all for improved macro-ability of these abilities, so that we're not having to toss 'throw-back' abilities onto our hotbars again every sync.

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I'd love for the next expansion to be nothing but traits, myself. Give us some procs on all those abilities that have nothing that links to them. Like a proc on Regen to boost another heal, or lower the CD on some of our abilities, or Overpower has a 50% chance to grant a Wrath/Abandon stack. Or even just a new effect on something, like PLD gets a slashing debuff attached to Royal Authority, or Dragonfire Dive now applies a burning DoT to every enemy hit. Make us feel more powerful, without bloating the buttons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isala

I'd love for the next expansion to be nothing but traits, myself. Give us some procs on all those abilities that have nothing that links to them.

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nah, i would never ever again part from assize or any other of the new skills, they are all amazing <3 (for WHM at least)

An auto skill evolution trait would be just awesome I hate switching up skills just doing a lower level dungeon. All 3 of the healer classes get DPS skills that are just plain better versions of previous skills and it's pretty annoying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nerael

I did the same but had to problem that stone II sometimes casted instead of Stone III, thanks for a solution to the issue ;)

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I'd recommend using a macro along these lines, instead:

Code:

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/micon "Protect"
/merror
/ac "Protect" <t>
/hotbar action "Stone" X Y
/hotbar action "Stone II" X Y
/hotbar action "Stone III" X Y

---

X should be the bar number that your Stone III key is located on, while Y should be the slot on the hotbar where the Stone III key is located. Put this macro on to the hotbar slot where you normally have Protect. When you then cast Protect, it will replace Stone III with the sync-appropriate Stone skill. This also gets around the errors you can get with one of the above-mentioned "all-in-one" Stone macros.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

[...]

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thanks for that ^^

I hate the macro solution. I can't queue the next skill up which is pretty important for stone spam.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deos

those kind of makros sometimes have problems though so you cast stone 2 at lvl 60 since the first command didnt go off for some reason.

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I can explain the reason.
First, macro commands don't queue, so if you hit the button just a hair before GCD or OGCD is ready, the command does nothing.
Second, the lines of a macro do not all execute simultaneously. There is a split second delay between each line.

What happens is you hit the macro just before the first ability is able to be executed, so the first ability doesn't go off. A split second later, when the macro tries the second ability, it has a chance to go off if that split second made the difference for being ready.

Macros with multiple casts create a ghetto queue of sorts by spamming the same command with those split second delays. Put enough of them together and it will make a difference. This buys you a little leeway to hit the button a tad too early.

This does come at a cost of a delay with the second ability if you are sync' down, but for many, that is an acceptable price to pay for the convenience and saving a slot. (I do this for Broil/Ruin.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

[...]

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wow, thats an interesting idea
too bad you cant place makros with the /hotbar command though, all my stone skills got a <tt> makro so i cant use this solution :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

I can explain the reason. [...]

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makes sense. thx for explanation, makes some things clearer ^^

I'm pretty sure you can make a macro along the same lines for fate syncing. There is macro command for level syncing in fate, and if you after that (maybe with delay of second or two) do the aforementioned /hotbar commands you should end up with proper attack spell in the bar. Then just use the macro instead of the duty list sync button on fates.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

I'd recommend using a macro along these lines, instead:

Code:

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/micon "Protect"
/merror
/ac "Protect" <t>
/hotbar action "Stone" X Y
/hotbar action "Stone II" X Y
/hotbar action "Stone III" X Y

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X should be the bar number that your Stone III key is located on, while Y should be the slot on the hotbar where the Stone III key is located. Put this macro on to the hotbar slot where you normally have Protect. When you then cast Protect, it will replace Stone III with the sync-appropriate Stone skill. This also gets around the errors you can get with one of the above-mentioned "all-in-one" Stone macros.

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Madam, you are officially my hero of the day and I now consider you genius. I tip my hat to thee. May RNGesus forever roll in your favor.

I had tried the other solution, yet still I wound up using Stone instead of Stone III yesterday. Thank you for making me see the light.

Edit: Finally got on to try it and got sad that it doesn't work. Can't blame me for trying though. D:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

I'd recommend using a macro along these lines, instead:

Code:

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/micon "Protect"
/merror
/ac "Protect" <t>
/hotbar action "Stone" X Y
/hotbar action "Stone II" X Y
/hotbar action "Stone III" X Y

---

X should be the bar number that your Stone III key is located on, while Y should be the slot on the hotbar where the Stone III key is located. Put this macro on to the hotbar slot where you normally have Protect. When you then cast Protect, it will replace Stone III with the sync-appropriate Stone skill. This also gets around the errors you can get with one of the above-mentioned "all-in-one" Stone macros.

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Can't wait to try this! Thank you.

EDIT: Worked! ^^ For cross hotbars:

Code:

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/micon "Protect"
/merror
/ac "Protect"
/chotbar set "Stone II" X Y
/chotbar set "Stone III" X Y

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again X = cross-hotbar number
Y = slot, eg RAR (right trigger, action buttons, right button), LDU (left trigger, dpad buttons, up button)

Stone II/III doesn't replace Stone (I) due to it's heavy effect. I keep that on it's own slot.

The hotbar copy suggestion for that particular purpose will not work, that way at least. The reason the original macro works is because the /hotbar action "skill" don't go through if the level is too low to have the skill. Thus what it does is set I on the slot, then II if possible, then III if possible. Ending up with the highest possible in the bar. The cross bar copy however has not reason not to work, regardless what skills the bar has. The macro doesn't stop midway if one command doesn't work, so it ends up copying the bar with the highest Stone macro regardless of the current level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sida

Snip.

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I finally got on to try it, and yeah, it sadly doesn't work. However, I did find an alternative. Two macros are used and would require two clicks, but all you need is one hotbar slot for both macros and an extra empty hotbar. There's a catch though; the stone <tt> macros and the protect macro cannot be on the same hotbar.

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Active

Code:

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/micon "Protect"
/merror
/ac "Protect" <t>
/hotbar copy CNJ 3 WHM [hotbar #]
/hotbar action "Stone" X Y
/hotbar copy CNJ 5 WHM [hotbar #]
/e Stone <se.8>
/wait 2
/hotbar action "Stone II" X Y
/hotbar copy CNJ 6 WHM [hotbar #]
/e Stone II <se.9>
/wait 2
/hotbar action "Stone III" X Y
/hotbar copy CNJ 7 WHM [hotbar #]
/hotbar copy CNJ 2 WHM [hotbar #]
/e Stone III <se.10>

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Cancel

Code:

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/copy CNJ 2 WHM [hotbar #]

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Once you hit Active, it will be replaced with Cancel. Hitting Cancel will kill the macro and replace it back with Active. If you do not press Cancel, it will automatically revert back to Active once the macro completes. Not the best solution - I'll give you that, but it lets you use those <tt> macros on your stone skills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Once you hit Active, it will be replaced with Cancel. Hitting Cancel will kill the macro and replace it back with Active. If you do not press Cancel, it will automatically revert back to Active once the macro completes. Not the best solution - I'll give you that, but it lets you use those <tt> macros on your stone skills.

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I'm glad you found a workingish solution :) A note though, while your solution sort of requires the player to watch the macro execution and cancel it at the right moment, I myself would find it handier to use command /macrocancel (or /mcancel) at suitable momenter instead of juggling with two macros. I'm not saying your solution is bad, mind. Just giving a heads up to those who find text commands handy to use. So the macro used would be your macro with the /wait commands to give time to react but without the copy commands that have to do with the cancel macro.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sida

A note though, while your solution sort of requires the player to watch the macro execution and cancel it at the right moment.

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Oh, no trouble at all! Yeah, I agree, it's the biggest downside to using this method. I don't really know how to explain it properly on how this is supposed to look like. Oh, but don't misunderstand; the macro can be done with the same button! And if you shorten the /wait commands to 1 second, it should be contained completely within the Protect cast.

Spells that could be turned into traits

CNJ/WHM
Stone II > Stone III

ACN/SMN/SCH
Ruin > Broil
Ruin > Ruin III

THM/BLM
Thunder > Thunder II > Thunder III (but maybe reduce the cast time on the higher level versions to match Thunder)

AST
Malefic > Malefic II

If SE is wanting to keep Stone II and III they way they are, I agree with this thread.

But, tbh, i would prefer it more if Stone II and III were unique enough to both be viable skills at 60.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winsock

If SE is wanting to keep Stone II and III they way they are, I agree with this thread.

But, tbh, i would prefer it more if Stone II and III were unique enough to both be viable skills at 60.

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Actually i hate this whole Aero 1,2,3/Stone 1,2,3/Fire1,2,3,4/Blizzard 1,2,3,4/Thunder 1,2,3/Ruin 1,2,3 idea....why not some new spells? For the WHM maybe Water or a "Holy" kind of dps spell? (Also, what happened to Quake, Tornado, Flood, Darkga, Diaga, Reflect, Reraise, Osmose and many many other spells? Where is the creativity??? D:< )

I don't wanna get to the third expansion with a Fire 10, Stone 45 and a Ruin 37 for Thaliak's sake...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Spells that could be turned into traits

CNJ/WHM
Stone II > Stone III

ACN/SMN/SCH
Ruin > Broil
Ruin > Ruin III

THM/BLM
Thunder > Thunder II > Thunder III (but maybe reduce the cast time on the higher level versions to match Thunder)

AST
Malefic > Malefic II

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I will have to disagree with most of this post. While it's true Stone III is just an upgrade Stone II, there are subtle applications to use lower tier spells on the other spells.

Broil is slightly over double the potency of Ruin at triple the cost. Ruin is more MP efficient if looking to save some MP. Likewise, Ruin III should almost exclusively be used in Dreadwyrm Stance only outside of a select few instances as it's only about 50% more potent at nearly 6 times the MP cost. The same can be said about Malefic and Malefic II as well. Generally all these spells have higher damage for a much higher MP cost and thus it's important for the caster to know when and how to use which spell.

Thunder I, II, and III all have varying cast times and MP consumption. While I don't know much about the current BLM rotation, back in 2.X you'd want to use Thunder over the other two spells just because of cast time and MP cost.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the spells you've listed should not be altered to traits due to these various reasons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

...Diaga...

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Oh man, I few days ago I made a post about that (well, in my post i brought up dia but close enough lol). I would love some more holy stuff for sure!

I just keep both Stone 2 and 3 (and normal Stone spell) on my DPS crossbar. A WHM will usually need more than 1 crossbar at LV60, so why not putting one for all DPS skills and another for healing? You will always have everything you need at hand, even synced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

Actually i hate this whole Aero 1,2,3/Stone 1,2,3/Fire1,2,3,4/Blizzard 1,2,3,4/Thunder 1,2,3/Ruin 1,2,3 idea....why not some new spells? For the WHM maybe Water or a "Holy" kind of dps spell? (Also, what happened to Quake, Tornado, Flood, Darkga, Diaga, Reflect, Reraise, Osmose and many many other spells? Where is the creativity??? D:< )

I don't wanna get to the third expansion with a Fire 10, Stone 45 and a Ruin 37 for Thaliak's sake...

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I agree to a point, though while having about three levels of spells, what happened to our old time favourites. I'd like to see Cure, Cura, Curaga, Fire, Fira, Firaga etc. in the spirit of the old games ^^ True, it's not much more original than the numbers but it's something I'm used to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Snip

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If you're a healer and your MP is low, you shouldn't be focusing on DPS anyway (unless the target is almost dead), you should try to conserve that MP for heals because usually when your MP is low when the shit hits the fan. XD
I play AST and SCH and once I get Malefic II and Broil, I haven't even touched Malefic and Ruin except when I'm level-synched too low and I think most people will say that.
The same with most WHMs I've seen, using Stone III over Stone II.
As for the Thunder-spells, most rotations I've seen use Thunder III at the beginning of fights and use Thunder II to replace DoTs until they get Thundercloud, which they use Thunder III. Regular Thunder never gets used at higher levels. Plus, MP cost really should be an issue for BLM.

A simple solution would be to remove the action Stone3 completely, and add in a trait called Stone3 that turns Stone2 into Stone3 when above the appropriate level.

I don't want them traited. I want to be able to choose which version of the spell to cast. While Stone III is fairly reasonable, things like Ruin III, it less than doubles the potency (80->120) but the cost is near six times of Ruin. They both have their uses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sida

things like Ruin III, it less than doubles the potency (80->120) but the cost is near six times of Ruin

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fyi: while in dreadwyrm trance, the mp cost of ruin III gets reduced to the same cost as ruin I, thats why you only use ruin III while in dreadwyrm.
to be honest, dreadwyrm should have increased dmg of ruin I instead of creating a new skill for it that you can/should only use while in dreadwyrm...

also btw, stone II has a slightly worse dps-per-mp value than the I and III

Mm, pretty sure I don't yet have anything called Dreadwyrm. I belive what you say about it though. But as of the moment, force replacing my Ruin I with III would be unreasonable which was my point towards this thread in general.

Apart from mechanic point of view though, as for my opinion, I also like to have the separate spells just because that's one less of things the game plays for me. I'm annoyed with some games that have gone with the automation to a point the game pretty much whacks you with "this is the one and only correct way to play" hammer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sida

Mm, pretty sure I don't yet have anything called Dreadwyrm. I belive what you say about it though. But as of the moment, force replacing my Ruin I with III would be unreasonable which was my point towards this thread in general.

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you get dreadwyrm several level after ruin III, which is kind of dump to be honest, since you cant really use ruin III until then...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sida

Apart from mechanic point of view though, as for my opinion, I also like to have the separate spells just because that's one less of things the game plays for me. I'm annoyed with some games that have gone with the automation to a point the game pretty much whacks you with "this is the one and only correct way to play" hammer.

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completely true, but when you add some makros you get to 3-4 full bars of skills, which can be overwhelming for some ppl
and then there is the fact that there is literally no reason to ever cast stone II after you got stone III (unless you are synced down), which is the reason for this thread
i really love the fact that even lvl 1 skills are still relevant in endgame though, many games fail hard at this and make all early lvl skills useless in endgame

It really kinda needs to happen before the next xpac, seriously skill bloat is already a problem as is can you imagine with another 5 or so skills cluttering up your bars...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sida

I agree to a point, though while having about three levels of spells, what happened to our old time favourites. I'd like to see Cure, Cura, Curaga, Fire, Fira, Firaga etc. in the spirit of the old games ^^ True, it's not much more original than the numbers but it's something I'm used to.

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Actually... I've heard the English client is the only one that uses the Cure, Cure 2 and Cure 3 pattern. Other clients use the Cure, Cura and Curaga pattern =/ I've heard people state the reason for the I/II/III names to be because they thought it would be too confusing for players.... Well, if that's so, I guess I'd just have to say, "Thanks for the vote of confidence, SE/Localization Team."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sida

Mm, pretty sure I don't yet have anything called Dreadwyrm.

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Dreadwyrm Trance is the SMN Lv58 quest reward =)

I wish there was an option to switch to the real names of the spells like Curaga.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raso

I wish there was an option to switch to the real names of the spells like Curaga.

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PRETTY PLEASE SE!

On related note, I heard other language clients have 24 hour clock, it's only the English client that forces the am/pm nonsense. Can't we have "international" client apart from the one that was meant for pure English countries.

I am all for traits that turn previous versions of Stone, Maelfic, What-have-you, into the higher ranked versions. Saves button space and is a QoL improvement for level syncing