Game too complex or easy?

Seems to be a good mix of both spectrums, so the question do you find the game to complex or easy?

Neither. I'd say the correct term is vast.
I've been playing for 2 years and haven't reached even 40% of the achievements and stuff to do.

It's too easy. The only hard content we have is/was Alexander Savage and the Coils of Bahamut. Midcore doesn't exist outside of Ex primals. Everything else is face roll easy.

Combat got a little more complex thanks to the new abilities, but outside of that, nothing is really complex. And crafting/gathering isn't complex, it just been designed badly for endgame.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

It's too easy. The only hard content we have is/was Alexander Savage and the Coils of Bahamut. Midcore doesn't exist outside of Ex primals. Everything else is face roll easy.

Combat got a little more complex thanks to the new abilities, but outside of that, nothing is really complex. And crafting/gathering isn't complex, it is just been designed badly for endgame.

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EX primals are hardcore content. Perhaps when their accessibility is increase by nerf/echo they become what you refer to as mid-core. But to players who are at the opposite end of the spectrum to hardcore raiders, EX primals are hardCore content, and unless content has been nerfed, has echo and is outgeared its not all faceroll easy. Actually, it wouldn't be faceroll easy to you if you were not overgeared in the extreme. But as usual, someone fails to understand that just because something is faceroll easy to them (max level and overgeared as they are), does not mean that it is that easy to others.

From what I see, it depends on who you ask.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

EX primals are hardcore content.

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I disagree. The EX primals are more akin to the mid-core crowd. The fights aren't extremely demanding unlike Alexander (Savage), and just requires players to learn the mechanics and have have decent enough damage output and healing. Personally, I would consider this mid-core content; Not too demanding, and not too simple. :0

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I disagree. The EX primals are more akin to the mid-core crowd. The fights aren't extremely demanding unlike Alexander (Savage), and just requires players to learn the mechanics and have have decent enough damage output and healing. Personally, I would consider this mid-core content; Not too demanding, and not too simple. Second Coil pre-nerf is a good reference.

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EX primals were alwys hardcore content in 2.xx. If the newer ones aRe easier perhaps thats because the game data showed fewer than expected taking part in EX runs. Either way, with level appropriate gear, these are not entirely mid-core, or ehatever its called, and they are most certainly not faceroll easy.

I would definitely not say FFXIV is too complex. Certain classes have a high skill cap (predominantly DPS classes) but in general it's not that complicated. I'd say in general it's just about right for the average casual player, maybe erring a little towards the easy side.

Now, ability bloat on the other hand, there is a lot of that going on.

As other have said, I think the ex primals are a good starting spot for endgame. We just need more stuff like that. The biggest problem is right now we only have 2 ex primals, and nothing has been said if we will get more or when. What we do know we are getting in 3.1 is 2 dungeons, 24 man raid, and a new Gold Saucer attraction. All of which is easy content. We know that in 3.2 another set of alexander content will come out, but there's one mode that's real easy and another that's real hard.

If SE ignores the kind of in between area between really easy and really hard, they will be doing so at their own detriment. The difficulty curve is a little skewed right now, and the reason people are saying there isn't much endgame.

EDIT: I think if Square is smart they will make the 24 man at least a little bit challenging, and not nerf it if people complain it's not steamroll enough.

Everything except Alex Savage is far too easy. But I still find it fun to play.

I find rotations entirely too hard a lot of the time but encounters too easy. It's a perplexing feeling.

The game is too easy. Due to continous handouts from Yoshi P and this whole mentality of punishing you for dedicating time while praising someone who doesnt have time or just wants to slack I stopped caring. I'm now a slacker because of Yoshi Ps way of enforcing this western world MMORPG mindstate. I came to FFXIV for the mentality of a japanese MMORPG not this easy western world vertical progression. I'm still playing this mostly for the community and my FFXI friends since we have no new MMORPG to play together so we are on FFXIV. I personally think the hype of this game will slowly fade away since Yoshi Ps business aspect of this is to steal as many members from Blizzards market as possible. This game is WoW with a FF costume on. People love to judge so fast assuming that just because you have savage Yoshi P did you a favour. Levling too fast does not make you a good player.

I have 15 level 60 jobs most of them from this ridicilous fate grinding I can't even play my jobs but this silly levling mentality promotes the lazyness slackerish gaming I mentioned before. Its really sad that this game is taking this path. No one wants a new FFXI I get it but use elements from FFXI that made it so good and put in here instead of ignoring your flagship and SE first MMORPG and just taking WoWs concept. I really hope the new expansion from WoW takes as many of these WoW players back that SEs nr 1 priority market seems to be so they can understand that this targeted group of people never where loyal customers to begin with.

For terms of complexity. The game is more or less the most basic and simple AAA mmo on the market.

Gear has no unique stats, Jobs have no unique builds, progression is pure linear (the game goes in a strait line more or less progression wise). No real supporting roles for jobs (Br/mch is not a support class). no resistance and weaknesses. Game is ultra simple from start to end.

As for easy. Well that explains everything except the most current endgame raid.

So by that default the game is extremely on the ultra easy spectrum. Although complex vs easy is not really a good argument. THe game could be piss easy and ultra complex, Example ffxi outside 2 bosses the game was easy mechanics wise but everything else pre-abysea was ultra complex with a jobs having multiple party roles, builds, and gear sets. Hard vs Easy would be a better comparison.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Levling too fast does not make you a good player.

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You don't get good by leveling, so leveling faster or slower is irrelevant in both case. I'd rather level fast so I can learn how to play sooner. There's a lot more requirements to become a good player.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

As for easy. Well that explains everything except the most current endgame raid.

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Even that one is ho hum at best imo. Practically no new mechanics that make you react differently. Resin bomb now stays, slows and deal massive damage..big deal, you're already dodging it on normal. I mean, sure I'm 'stuck' in SA1 but honestly, as the OT, all I'm doing is full dps on faust, full dps on opressor, dodge stuff, take it away when split, tank buster, and the repeat from dodge stuff until we wipe because the healers arent used to healing in a raid.

Sure the healers are having a tough time learning the fight but I'm not. I'm just repeating the motion and I think the dps are too and I don't think it's very fair, hence why I think it's a crappy raid. Someone in my static mentioned that sastasha normal last boss is less straight forward than this and...I kinda think he's right. Someone else in another static mentioned that SA2 is pretyty much the same with different spawn patterns, which is also a bummer. It just doesn't feel as engaging as scob/bcob or even fcob. Not to mention any story incentive is gone, the incentive of wanting to see my character wearing hard to get gear is half gone too since...I'm already wearing the same thing, just lower ilvl (who cares).

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

gf.

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I disagree.
Ex primals are below midcore imo.
And for someone like me who would like to raid, but can barely make enough time to do an expert roulette a day, I want some harder content that isn't raid hard, but very close to it.
I wish they made ex primals way harder, since Leviathan (funny how levi is the easiest one now, but was like the hardest before you learned) there hasn't been any hard ex primal releases at all, and we really need some kind of new titan ex!

The thing is you want to keep hardcore players happy, but also do not want to alienate your more casual fan base. That's bad business sense and the money they pay each month to play is as valid as every hardcore player (I actually think some of the more hardcore players would rather see a game fail than give anything for casual players). Personally, I'm a "hardcore casual". I know my job, I'm good at it and do whatever I can to improve myself. But I don't dedicate my life to this game. I've been invited to Savage statics, but can't do them because of my work schedule. I also enjoy playing other games.

I think FFXIV strikes a decent balance.

Melch: This fast way of levling is absurd I understand its meant to "lure" you and keep you interested in playing since it goes so fast. I don't know how to play half my jobs at 60. I fategrinded them just because its possble. Sometimes I wish it was like the good old days where even a silly bunnyrabbit could beat you when you are 75 haha! I know I know the glory days of FFXI but seriously levling fast to 60 and then learning your job is that really the right way to go?

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

The game is too easy.

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Says someone who has never even touched Final Coil, the 2 new EX Primals, or Alexander Normal.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Not to mention any story incentive is gone, the incentive of wanting to see my character wearing hard to get gear is half gone too since...I'm already wearing the same thing, just lower ilvl (who cares).

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Ya I couldn't agree more, I feel like they did everything possible to make people NOT want to raid. Which is why I picked up crafting instead of raiding in 3.0

Why grind out all these practice sessions to beat bosses I already beat on faceroll mode.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

It just doesn't feel as engaging as scob/bcob or even fcob...

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IMO they should just stop with the story mode Alexander. Because :
1. When you do the savage mode there's no real surprise effect, a lot of players just don't care about doing it.
2. The level of difficulty of savage mode is actually too low (mechanics wise) and closer to what FCoB was and nowhere near what SCoB savage was. For this reason it doesn't deserve to be called 'savage'.
3. The story mode grind is real and mind numbing, drop system is really bad (you can do a floor 8 times if you're unlucky which probably leads you to call it a week because you don't wanna hear about alexander after that),it's better than before though.
4. The story mode is purely faceroll and shouldn't exist for this sole reason (it's not even close to the WoD difficulty).
5. Despite being higher ilvl than story mode's ones, the gears look identical.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Says someone who has never even touched Final Coil, the 2 new EX Primals, or Alexander Normal.

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Would it make a difference if I have done all of the above and said the same thing? Currently the game outside SA is easy and SA is the worst kind of hard (seems to be just damage pump) and middle ground doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Melch

2. The level of difficulty of savage mode is actually too low (mechanics wise) and closer to what FCoB was and nowhere near what SCoB savage was. For this reason it doesn't deserve to be called 'savage'.

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I've been to almost enrage in SA1, which means I've seen all the 'mechanics' and honestly, I feel like T10 is way more complex than SA1. SA1 doesnt seem to be any more complicated than fractal's last boss which seemed daunting when the battle starts for the first time (because you just tackled library) but after your first win it was basically "Wait, wasn't that just tank and spank, dodge stuff and kill adds?". Huge let down compared to that hunk of rock/book thing in library.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Would it make a difference if I have done all of the above and said the same thing? Currently the game outside SA is easy and SA is the worst kind of hard (seems to be just damage pump) and middle ground doesn't exist.

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Oh, I agree that the vast majority of content in this game is too easy and that there isn't much of a middle ground. I just take issue with people claiming the game is too easy when they haven't even tried a large portion of what is supposed to be the most difficult content in the game. If you have done it and think that it's too easy, well, I agree with that.

I have to say that while better future gear, echo buffs, and even expansions might naturally ease the difficulty/complexity of any given content, it will not make up for a lack of knowledge or experience.

The game is - in the right areas - challenging. Certainly. But due to preparation, communication, personal effort and drive, this game is as easy or as hard as YOU make it.

It's certainly sparse. You've got Alex savage=Hard stuff, Ravana/Bismarck EX=middle stuff, Everything else=faceroll. I know that everyone loves to hate WoW, but they covered their middle ground a lot better. SE's goal seems to be to just let the middle people wait for power creep, which would be fine if there was something to do while waiting for that. Staring at the wall in Idyllshire between Expert Roulette and Alex Normal farms is oh so fun (these two things are part of the /faceroll category.)

I realize you can level other jobs or craft, but if you've got a specific main that you're looking to improve, you're gonna be stuck doing stupid easy content while waiting on the power creep.

I thought the middle ground that everyone here says doesn't exist were the extreme mode primals.

Anyone who raids knows they aren't particularly hard, but they're miles more difficult than this silly "story mode" stuff.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

EX primals were alwys hardcore content in 2.xx.

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I really wouldn't call Shiva EX or Leviathan EX hardcore. And the rest of the EX primals were only marginally more difficult than those two (save for Ramuh, maybe). They were hard enough to be challenging to the average player, but easy enough not to be impossible. If that's not the definition of "mid-core" then I'm really not sure what is.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Says someone who has never even touched Final Coil, the 2 new EX Primals, or Alexander Normal.

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To be fair Alex really isn't so bad once people know the dance. Savage now, I hear that bloody place is the Finger of Rhalgr.

Story mode can only be judge on your first try doing it. And i'm sure the majority wipe even on Ifrit story mode ;) Everyone has been throw away from the ring by Titan, and i don't even speak of Garuda story mode and his little dps check with the feathers.

Just try to beat Odin and Leviathan in complete pugs team.

I think the extrem primals are well designed.

Alexander story mode is not that easy in pugs team neither. Some players just do it with a premade. What do you expect ? (schweppes !) that the boss will suddenly surprise you with a new mechanic just because you are an already well-prepared team ?
If you want to test the difficulty, don't come with your friends. And certainly not with the max ilvl gear.

Too easy.
Coil and Savage Alex are good piece of content, always keep me busy for months while raiding 3 days a week but that's it.

I think January 2015 was the last time I did roulette, because the dungeons are so easy I can't stand doing them more than just once. But we cannot blame only SE, people were always asking for nerves when new dungeons like Pharos Sirius came out so SE stopped bothering providing us with harder than baby-difficulty content. I think dungeons should be on par with Alex Storymode - a bit challenging, but when you clear them once, easy.
I am not saying there is not hard content in this game, just that the "daily" content is easier than it has to be.

The secret, really, is do as I do. Queue for everything in DF with a PuG. Alexander, Trials, Expert Roulette, all of it. Then every queue is an adventure.

There's something for everyone.
Personally, I feel that crafts could be in a better place though. SE added some frustrating factors for HW (lower good rate, red scrips, high number of mats needed, reduced quantity outputs for things like pots that used to give out 3 per craft, class-specific gearsets to eat up inventory space again...etc.)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

EX primals were alwys hardcore content in 2.xx. If the newer ones aRe easier perhaps thats because the game data showed fewer than expected taking part in EX runs. Either way, with level appropriate gear, these are not entirely mid-core, or ehatever its called, and they are most certainly not faceroll easy.

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I'm sorry but if you consider the likes of Garuda, Ifrit, Leviathan, and Shiva hardcore then I'm completely speechless. All those fights are ridiculously easy once you know the mechanic.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

It's too easy. The only hard content we have is/was Alexander Savage and the Coils of Bahamut. Midcore doesn't exist outside of Ex primals. Everything else is face roll easy.

Combat got a little more complex thanks to the new abilities, but outside of that, nothing is really complex. And crafting/gathering isn't complex, it just been designed badly for endgame.

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Seriously, they overcomplicated it for end game

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

I have 15 level 60 jobs most of them from this ridicilous fate grinding

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lmao /10char

content that matters atm:

leveling dungeons: mechanics are often too easy or let's say too forgiving. look at sohm al i.e. if you ignore the adds, you'll take more dmg but it's not enough to wipe the run. and it's not much different with the other dungeons. you can still wipe here but it has nothing to do with the content...

Lv60 dungeons: just 2 of those atm. not really challenging either, at least neverreap's last boss will teach you a bit, which might help for bismarck ex. again, if you fail here it's not cause the game is to hard...

Ex Primals: 2 of those which is basically the current mid-tier difficulty. though in the end it's just ravana, since bismarck has no use except being a gating ravana. and it's mostly just a dps check of everyone in the party. ravana's difficulty comes again from finding 7 other good ppl that can understand more than one mechanic. he's not putting out high dmg nor do you need high dps to beat him, just knowledge. putting those on df won't change much. at least not on chaos data center where from my experience someone (usually that guy who performed the worst) talks crap and leads to disbanding of the party.

Alex normal: a bit too easy. most mechanics are comparable to lv60 dungeons. a bit too forgiving. sure, it's good, cause otherwise it would be unbeatable with DF... also from what I've seen from savage, some of those normal mechanics are kinda misleading when it comes to savage. i wouldn't even put Alex normal into mid-tier range. it's made for everybody in mind.

Alex savage: really hard stuff, seems a bit too much emphasis on the groups damage output, though on the other hand AS3 looks like it has quite a few mechanics. no clue about AS4.


All in all, imo, we only have 1 mid-tier fight that rewards you with an inferior weapon compared what you can buy with eso tomes. everything else is easy or Savage, which is only for a small part of the player base.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

It's too easy. The only hard content we have is/was Alexander Savage and the Coils of Bahamut. Midcore doesn't exist outside of Ex primals.

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I wonder if that Airship content fixes this, i mean wasnt it supposed to be so called "midtier content" or do i remember wrong? Kinda sad that normal alex was way more easier than so called coil with echo, they could have made story mode soloable with NPC's or something like that and kept normal on par with old coil, as it feels that savage is(atleast last 2 floors)are propably too much for my group untill it gets nerfed via overgearing it(or we just need to git gud ^^).

I really hope that Airship content has this midcore stuff but i fear that it will end as an another hunt like content :s

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

Seems to be a good mix of both spectrums, so the question do you find the game to complex or easy?

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Both. If a player is just now getting into FFXIV, I can see how all the things we have would be overwhelming. But I think the game does a good job of teaching new players the ropes via quests and such, supposing the players read what they're doing instead of just clicking through everything.

For a player that's been around, it's probably easy. Except when they release new stuff. Then that's hard for like a week.

It depends: actualy Alexander Savage is properly hard to manage, and it is fun to play.
But all the rest of the game is terribly easy and in the long run, imho, pretty boring.

I'm not tired to say it: I find FF XIV a game with a great potential, but it totally lacks of mid-content.
I'd love to have some hard content to do with just 4 persons of my static logged in, actually I'm logging just for do a boring expert roulette everyday and just 3 nights a week for playing raids with my group.
But this feels to me like a huge waste, this game have such a great potential for become exciting.

Of course I can understand not everybody likes to have hard contents, but i think they should try to please everyone.. And in this moment, IMHO, a mid-core player can't be fully satisfied.