This isn't my video but I saw it on the forums so I thought I'd share it again for anyone else who's been dying to see something like this for a very long time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhLf...ature=youtu.be
Edit:
TLDR: 5min dummy parse with slashing rebuff for all / party bonus
Warrior: 1000 dps
Dark Knight: 970 dps
Paladin: 940 dps
#Confirmed
Tank DPS Comparison Video
Printable View
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08-04-2015, 03:13 AMGooner_iBluAirJGRTank DPS Comparison Video
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08-04-2015, 03:55 AMPaikis
This doesnt support the narative. As such it will be ignored and/or "yes, but..."-ed to death.
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08-04-2015, 04:05 AMWhiston
Awesome.
So the TLDR of the video is 5 minutes on a dummy, with slashing debuff up for all tanks w/ party bonus:
Warrior: 1000 dps
Dark Knight: 970 dps
Paladin: 940 dps
All relatively strong in comparison, and certainly all viable as far as damage output is concerned. -
08-04-2015, 04:10 AMSirTaint
Whats missing is that DRK runs out of TP at 2min18 seconds, PLD runs out of TP at 2min38 seconds, WAR doesn't run out.
It would also be very interesting to see the DPS of all three tanks in their respective tank stances done the same way.
Thanks! -
08-04-2015, 04:12 AMTilaThis would matter if all fights currently didn't have grace periods where TP can regen, or that groups will always have some kind of TP gain that will be used.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Its a detriment on paper, but not in practice. -
08-04-2015, 04:40 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Tila
TP gain is used around your DPS not your tanks in practice. Yes some fights nobody cares about TP and others its a big problem. Like A1S I run dry on DRK or PLD but the DPS never have an issue. -
08-04-2015, 04:45 AMBadRNGIsn't this the exact narrative? WAR has best dps, DRK is second, PLD is third. WAR can maintain endlessly and DRK/PLD go dry very fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
It's not really missing if you watch the video, they had TP regen effects going constantly. For DRK they basically alternated full time rook TP and goad once MCH MP ran out, which is kind of funny to watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Not every group has a NIN or AST, and if you are making BRD/MCH regen TP that early then you are lowering overall raid dps in order to obtain DRK/PLD's max. All fights definitely do not have a grace period every 2m. Hell I ran out of TP whilst tanking in AS2 near the end. Would of went out much faster with blood weapon constantly being used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
There are many fights where it is not an issue but still some where it is, not something you can write off all together. -
08-04-2015, 04:53 AMTilaDont warrior tanks also have an issue with TP on AS2?Quote:
Originally Posted by BadRNG
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08-04-2015, 04:59 AMZDamned
You CAN write it off all together, because there are no fights where these become an issue, and the developers are creating content around it.
Believe it or not, the developers tuned the 3 very closely. Even giving Warrior Fell cleave, it's not in the lead by something insane like 200 DPS.
Nearly all of the complains on this forum are unfounded, and just coming from a bunch of players who don't want to adjust themselves to the newer content. Instead they want the game to cater to them.
News Flash: Dark Knight is 30 DPS behind, and that's in line with all of this games balancing on a TRAINING dummy.
Step into a raid, and none of the sustained 4-6 minute parses matter at all because as a tank, you have to adhere to mechanics, and you also need to adhere to well played Damage Dealers who probably do more damage than you can, unlike Duty Finder where we tanks end up on top.
No, you will not be tanking Alex Savage in Sword Oath the entire fight, nor will you tank the fight without using Rage of Halone several times to establish enmity.
The only fight in the game that ever tested TP limits before now was Turn 8, and we have never seen anything like it since.
Do you feel your job doesn't do enough DPS? Then stop playing it. The numbers we pull are entirely by design for a reason. But a gap of 70 DPS between the 3 is nowhere near imbalanced by anyone's standard. -
08-04-2015, 05:03 AMPhoeniciaNo body is writing off the whole TP thing. But those that are making it a problem are exaggerating.Quote:
Originally Posted by BadRNG
Whither you have PLD/WAR, DRK/WAR, PLD/DRK, the TP issue is present. Ask your NIN/AST/BRD/MCH to give you TP earlier. Only combo that has no worries over tank TP is WAR/WAR. And no body is running double jobs.
When NIN TP costs got nerfed in 2.45, most competitive raid groups gave Goad priority to PLD. NIN had the exact same TP time as MNK and DRG so they wanted the bards to sing for TP. It's a team game after all.
If your team doesn't want to adjust to its own setup, then they are stupid. Simple as that. Singing TP for your tanks is as much of a DPS increase to the tanks as it is for the DPS. DPS will start regaining TP at the 400 mark instead of right before they're starved and strugging with that TP tick is a DPS increase. BRD can time his songs so he doesn't lose DPS by singing during jumps, further boosting those grace periods' TP regen. Just work around what you have.
WAR never runs out of TP on a single target. People wouldn't cry if WAR wasn't given Equilibrium, which is what this is all about. People think WAR's TP is great because of Equilibrium. (Watch the 5 minute parse, WAR didn't use Equilibrium nor touch it). WAR has 0 TP GCDs and is pacified for 5 seconds every 1.5 minutes. That pacification is a DPS loss too! If WAR wasn't given Equilibrium, no body would've even noticed that WAR has no TP issues.
ALL jobs except WAR run out of TP, even the ones that have Invigorate. Melee run out on average at 3:30. BRD (And MCH I guess?) last a lot shorter. A BRD or MCH can start singing slightly earlier in shorter bursts so that everyone gets TP before they completely dry and starve. Again, just coordinate with your teammates. -
08-04-2015, 05:21 AMSirTaint
TP is a problem, esp for DRK. When TP hits 0 DPS nose dives.
Goad is a great solution if you have a NIN, but a BRD/MCH isn't going to TP regen over a minute early for a tank. TP regen is also used as a bridge until the next invigorate, while DRK/PLD will continue to run out. Again not on all fights but when present it is a big problem.
Jumps/downtime favor a WAR. Anytime DPS is haulted and zerk is on CD WAR has a DPS advantage. Same can be said of FoF but on a much smaller level because of Fellcleave. -
08-04-2015, 05:26 AMPhoebusProbably 1/2 of the time i'm in SwO and maybe use Rage a couple of times during the fight on A1S.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDamned
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08-04-2015, 05:33 AMBadRNGMaybe? Depending on their overpower use, I'd assume. It's not really the same comparison since we were talking about single target TP drain (as DRK has no aoe-tp skills).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
If you wanted to compare DRK/WAR aoe sustainability it's an odd situation, WAR definitely falls off a cliff fast but DRK will as well if they aren't actively getting hit constantly (like in stupid AS2 with all the stuns). Or another way to put it, WAR has better OT aoe potential but DRK has better MTing aoe potential. The only benefit WAR has there is that if it is highly beneficial for them to be actively spamming Overpower for some reason, then it's likely true for the other TP aoe users, so singing/turret is a bit more justified.
It's really funny you say this when the post literally above you is saying you can write it off all together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
SirTaint already addressed rest of your points, so not going to rehash. -
08-04-2015, 05:47 AMZDamnedWhich is still in line with what I said. Since I specifically said the ENTIRE FIGHT. So thanks for backing me up. =) I do the same with dropping Grit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus
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08-04-2015, 05:56 AMCooperal
I still don't get these. As in I don't get the point. It's just too simple to say "any DPS we can squeeze into our tank party-slots is good".
It just begs other questions. Can the tank keep the attention of all 3 or more enemies without even slightly breaking their optimal single target DPS (the answer to that would be no). Do they have abilities that scale their usefulness (whether it's damage or recovery) directly to the amount of enemies present? (DRK has at least 5 things which only continue to become useful when more enemies are in their space or hitting them).
Things like Salted Earth and Abyssal Drain can be insane. Just not on one opponent. Blood price can be more epic than any limit break. But especially not on a dummy that doesn't fight back. And I'm sure all 3 tanks must be that way in some respects. Not going to get a fair deal on a PLDs shield swipes with a test such as that. You just can't test their DPS that way, let alone the goal that takes priority above it. -
08-04-2015, 06:00 AMPhoebusI was more pointing out the lack of using Rage, but you are welcome for the back up :P.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDamned
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08-04-2015, 06:34 AMZDamnedThe thing about that though, is it means your not optimally using that 930 DPS rotation that the training dummy allows, which is why I said what I said. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus
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08-04-2015, 09:35 AMPaikisEh, the usual narrative is that WAR is overpowered because it does this huge amount more DPS while also being the best at taking hits and never runs out of TP. This video shows that the huge DPS gap just isn't there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BadRNG
The arguments I see here on the forums all assume that the WAR is a god-like player who never miss-times an Inner Beast with every tankbuster, and still manages to be using Fell Cleave every other GCD while doing that. They also apparently are using fending-DPS for PLD while looking at slaying DPS for WAR, based on the number of threads I've seen begging for the PLD (still the easiest class to play in the game) to get more damage added and using top-raid WAR parses to try to somehow justify it.
What is also going on is that people who are playing WAR are generally gearing for more damage since the perceived role of the WAR is the damage tank. I see most WAR players using at least partial and usually full slaying gear. PLD is perceived as the more defensive tank, and I see a lot more PLDs who wear full fending gear. This alone would contribute to a large gap in DPS. The parse above though shows that actually all the tanks are within a few % of each other when using similar gear, and the ordering is about what we should expect, given that the PLD has the best defensive stats, followed by the DRK and then the WAR bringing up the rear.
Again, the difference is not huge when all the classes are well played.
EDIT: After watching the actual video, I'm going to say that actually the WAR's parse should be lower in an actual fight. You simply cannot use Butcher's Block combo two out of every three combos and expect to not rip hate off your counterpart. BB combo is the highest potency combo for WAR. Having to use the maim combos will lower your actual damage. You also ended the parse directly after a triple fell cleave, when you shoujld by rights have ended it BEFORE that point, giving a DPS of 976 for the WAR. -
08-04-2015, 09:45 AMTilaWould be kinda funny if it turns out warrior dps in practical usage is below the other two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
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08-04-2015, 09:55 AMPaikisI'm sure if we went through the video we'd be able to find other things that just aren't realistic in an actual fight (like being able to simply stand there and wail on something for 5 minutes without moving)... but ending the parse immediately after a Berserk is blatant number inflation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
EDIT: OK, they did the same thing for PLD, ending the fight after a Fight or Flight burst. -
08-04-2015, 10:23 AMZfz
Questions:
(1) What are the dps numbers in tanking stance with proper tanking rotations? E.g., Maintaining RoH for PLD.
(2) WAR's advantage had always been based on the fact that WARs can apply their own slashing debuff, and that slashing debuff is not always there. So what happens when PLD and DRK has no access to the slashing debuff?
The video proves that under optimal conditions with pure dps rotations, three tanks can do comparative dps as OT.
Like a PLD not applying RoH as a tank? But I suppose any healer that is good enough should have no problems healing stuff without the STR debuff. Perhaps I just need to git gud and take RoH off my hotbar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
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08-04-2015, 10:57 AMDhex
Well - here's Paladin in full STR in Sword Oath without a TP feed, and without a Slashing debuff I could only maintain my damage for 2m 51 - before bottoming out on TP; 841dps or so (?) for most of that with a heavy fall off at the 2:35 mark to 794dps.
Log is available here;
Memory Log
Offensive stats:
Atk. Power 868
Sks. 564
Det. 401
Crit. 541
I'll toss in that I didn't use RoH once - it's a different parse entirely with ShO & RoH being included. -
08-04-2015, 11:51 AMBrian_
I love these dummy parses with no real context, idealized situations for DRK and PLD, and basically a less than ideal situation for WARs that still end up with a gap in tank DPS. Then people quote it as if it means everything is okay.
LOL. -
08-04-2015, 12:25 PMTilaCan you explain why its less than ideal for WAR? Or are you just assuming?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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08-04-2015, 12:37 PMBrian_
None of the pacifications were removed so they lost 2 GCDs every Berserk.
It's just stupid because you are basically attaching a TP / debuff bot to the DRK and PLD but you can't even insta remove pacfication from the WAR. -
08-04-2015, 03:03 PMZfz
I can understand that there are times the PLD will also be enjoying the slashing debuff, and I really only run out of TP with underperforming DPS. But rather than OT dps, I'm more interesting in MT dps, i.e. in Tanking stance doing the "tanking" rotation. For example Storm's Path, Rage of Halone, etc.
I mean even as OT, shouldn't you be applying these debuffs for the MT? I don't see the value of a pure dps rotations when discussing relative usefulness/powerfulness of tank jobs. It's like judging the value of BLM and SMN by how much they can heal.
Or if really people don't care much about these debuffs even in Savage as OT, then I suppose yeah, why not, if you don't absolutely it need it then these debuffs are a waste and we should take them off our hotbars cause, dps rulz, right? -
08-04-2015, 11:39 PMKinSlayer009
That Warrior burst rotation Was laughable at best.....
I can bust over 1500 with no food no potions over 1700 with.... -
08-05-2015, 12:00 AMDGladius
Should have gotten someone to remove the pacification from warrior if PLD and DRK were getting fed with tp and slashing debuff.
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08-05-2015, 12:06 AMpandabearcat
Furthermore, 5 min is just an odd stopping point.
1. PLD should stop exactly at 85-90 seconds. PLD rotation is set in stone and should not get a 6th FoF.
2. DRK rotation should stop around 4:50 with between 0 and 1/4th mana. They should not get a 6th C&S.
3. WAR rotation should stop right before 3 min, as that is when infuriate and berserk line up.
Also I don't believe the "i can drop RoH from my rotation entirely" story. Your dps are godawful if you can 90% of the time use RA. If you are doing 0.5 then I can understand this, but not if you are MTing 1.0 like you should be. -
08-05-2015, 12:15 AMDante_V
I'm more interested in their dps in tanking stance with no slashing debuff.
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08-05-2015, 03:44 AMPhoebusNot entirely, but mostly. Let warrior start while you burst FoF SwO, then take it back after. You might have to do a couple RoH after swap, but that would be it for the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
Usually swap right after first resin/royal fout.
There's too much focus on the 3 tanks in a vacuum and not enough of how they compliment each other.
As for dps issues with paladin, if they would just move shield swipe to oGCD with a cd as had been asked since 2.0 the issue would be resolved. -
08-07-2015, 01:57 AMTyrantxI am horrified you would post that video link. How dare you try to use proof & logic to teach others. This type of thinking is what could kill off all the crybaby drama threads in the tanking forums; and then I'd only have boring stuff to read while eating popcorn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR
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08-07-2015, 02:33 AMStochasticProcess
It seems to me that when most people discuss potential imbalance between the three tanks, they're referring to two points. PLD and DRK requiring support to maintain TP for dps and WAR having the ability to seemlessly stance dance and deliver high burst while tanking.
I think the need for TP support could very well be a game balance issue, and I have little concern regarding it. However, I can see some merit in the WAR complaint. As this thread shows, the tanks dps, on average, roughly the same. However, it's WARs ability to, without tradeoff, swap stance, burst, then <10 seconds later you're back to tanking. When this content is on farm WAR/WAR will certainly be the favored composition. -
08-07-2015, 04:05 AMSigmakanAnd hate inst an issue with dummy parses. If these tanks had to actually hold hate then DRK and PLD would go down because they would have to use their enmity combo, which is lower potency than their primary DPS combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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08-07-2015, 04:58 AMKleys
DRK in OP' video is bad.
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08-07-2015, 05:15 AMInstrumentality
Lmao at the hella TP feed on DRK and then PLD.
My problem with warrior isn't that it feels more powerful. It's that it feels like people who play warrior always get to play the video game and I have to stop after 120 seconds and not play the video game for a bit. That's it. That's why it sucks. If it was 180 seconds or 240 seconds for every tank I'd be happier with where the jobs are. -
08-07-2015, 05:48 AMLadon
This isn't much of a comparison video. It's hilarious to watch the Warrior go on it's own then having to see all of the support from other classes for the PLD and DRK just to push out lower numbers in the end.
Do it again, this time out of party with no other assistance. I'd love to see the results then because in my static I don't have access to a slashing debuff or TP regen. That is the major source of the balancing problems here because a Warrior has everything on their own AND still performs better than the other two classes. PLDs and DRKs should not need to rely on specific group makeups to just come close to a Warrior on their own. -
08-07-2015, 05:56 AMWhistonI feel that this is the single glaring issue with DRK and PLD right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Instrumentality
All the recent encounters in this game seem to have moved well away from the turn eight style fight that pretends to be about resource management, but is actually just punishment for playing a job properly and punishing other classes in order to recover party resources. There is very little gaming value to this, although you could argue that turn eight did have minimal value in this with correct optimization, but still limited.
The new encounters are filled with burst phases of concentrated damage, both incoming and outgoing. Ravana, Bismark, Alexander floors 1, 3 and 4 all have periods of significant downtime.
Although there is downtime in these encounters, Dark Knight, and Paladin still suffer from lack of resources.
Many jobs had significant resource buffs. Bard has reduced TP usage in Iron Jaws, allowing you to save resources by reapplying dots, Warriors got a TP refresh, Monks got a TP refresh, Dragoons benefit slightly due to less resource heavy combo finishers with BOTD up. Paladin and Dark Knight still suffer from massive lack of TP.
There is zero gaming value to "managing TP" in such a drastic fashion. There simply is no management on it, and it's ridiculous to punish a class for pushing buttons consecutively.