Could the beast tribes all have been artificially created? [3.0 Spoilers]

In the Fractal Continuum we learn that Ixalion (potential predecessors or the ixal) along with other creatures were created by the Allagans

Additionally, we learn that the Poroggo of Sharlayan were "artificially" created via imbuing animals (or frogs in the case of Poroggos) with consciousness through some form of magic. Not only are they intelligent, they're also capable of magic.

Unlike the Alagans who altered creatures on the genetic level, Sharlayan just mearing do it through magic. As such it seems as if it can easily be taken away as stated by one of the Porogos in Motoyas cave.

Since it's not on agenetic level they might not even be capable of reproducing self conscious frogs. There's still so much we don't know about the civilization predating the Allagans, but there does seem to be a trend of the Spoken races experimenting with life.

Is it too far fetch to think that the Warring Tribes of the 1st Astral/Umbral eras created familiars out of animals to fight for them? Just like how the Warring Triad of FF6 created espers to fight in their war?

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...Saro_Roggo.png

It seems the easy go-to, doesn't it? I mean, on one hand, they were really into genetic engineering, and on the other hand, it's always Ascians and Allagans. I do believe there's a Hunt that hints that Rowena extracted information from a tomestone suggesting that the Allagans experimented on contemporary beastmen, implying that they weren't all engineered (I'll see if I can dig that up in an edit).

Perhaps all the ones of today are... or perhaps just some. We really don't know. I thought for sure after Sastasha HM (Octo-Maddison) that "over-tempering" would have played a role in the warping of physiology somewhere, but who even knows if those affected can reproduce.


EDIT Got the quite I was remembering.

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Originally Posted by Hunter-scholar

One of the Allags' favorite pastimes was to splice bits of different monsters together, creating godforsaken chimeras to set upon their enemies. But it wasn't just beasts they tampered with─they had their wicked way with the beastmen, too. This merchant claims to have found a record of one of these experiments─they took a lizardman from the southern shores of Aldenard and crossed it with a vicious scalekin from across the Sea of Ash. The abomination that resulted from this unhappy union they christened "Lycidas."

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All I know is that classifying Allagan creations according to Raimdelle's system (the game's preferred bestiary taxonomy) is going to be a nightmare.

I'm also not sure how much I trust the Sharlayan's creations, yet.
The Library is lousy with voidsent; who knows what essence animates their creations. I sure hope it's just magick.

They did it to create a bright and prosperous future for all humanity, so it's all good, right? ("Yes Fenral, we get it, you're mad at the Allagans for convincing your brother-from-another-mother to seal himself in a time bubble. Enough already.")

Obligatory stabs aside, we have the Ixal all but confirmed, and if the "UFO" turns out to be related to Manukmanai, then it's entirely possible that the Vanu Vanu are as well. That leaves the Kobolds, Sahagin, Amal'jaa, Sylphs, Moogles, and Gnath. So let's go down the list.

Kobolds: do they even have a creation myth?
Amal'jaa: same as the Kobolds, we have very little on their history.
Sahagin: have some vague ties to Allagan creations such as the Lamia, but we have nothing on the Sahagin themselves. They're pretty similar to the Deep Ones, though, so my guess is they simply evolved underwater naturally.
Gnath: the Onemind seems like it would be tricky to engineer artificially, but we've never heard of Allagans backing down from a challenge. Nonmind could be a glitch in the software?
Sylphs: have a cultural memory older than Hydaelin herself, if Ramuh is any indication. Most likely predate Allag, but we thought Dalamud was older than Allag as well...
Moogles: we have nothing on them older than their covenant with Hraesvelgr, which is only a few thousand years old. I suppose they could have escaped from some Allagan facility or other? Hard to know.

Well, I remember ages ago several of us here (including you Moose as I recall) had a theory that the gigas at least were the result of Allagan genetic engineering and were created as a source of slave labour... given what we now though that theory is given increasing weight. After all, they even made cloning of the spoken possible (*cough* Unei and Doga *cough cough*) so this idea of the beastmen being the result of bizzare Allagan experiments just rings true.

Alas, that then blows holes in my own old theory that the 'early tribes' who were the original settlers of Eorzea back in the very First Astral Era after the Age of the Gods ended were not the spoken races at all but were actually the beastmen....

@Anonymoose,

Yeah there IS something there regarding aether-overexposure and mutation, but what? I'm not sure. At the very least I do they used their aetherochemical research to become those giant colorful things like Xande, Amon, Phlegmeton.

Lastly, we know that Sharlayans are scholars and collects/hoards as many knowledge as possible. It's pure speculation at this point, but I do think that magic behind the creation of Poroggos might have been from an older Era, hopefully predating the Allagans

Lastly, how can we classify these Frogs? They're frogs, but are also intelligent . I guess that's why they left them behind when Sharalayns evacuated some 15yrs ago. It's quite cruel to take out their free will and revert them back to Frogs.

Hmmm, I am starting to see why the Garleans were worried about the Sharlayans

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Well, I remember ages ago several of us here (including you Moose as I recall) had a theory that the gigas at least were the result of Allagan genetic engineering and were created as a source of slave labour.

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Indeed, we debated it back in January '14 because of the Gigas referring to Crystal Tower as a holy place to which they must return. A lot of possibilities were thrown around; early prototype clones (since they resemble the "upgraded" clones like Phlegethon and Xande), specifically created slave race, Allag devolution, red herrings. Given what we know now (and the Thorne Dynasty controlling them with "magicked helms" that they couldn't fix once they stopped working), created slave race seems to have some weight behind it now, I agree. Not all that different from the Cyclops, perhaps.

And not only the Ixal hint that these beings could form their own societies, there's a FATE in Azys Lla where "a slither" of Lamia become self-aware and attempt to make a break for it as a group.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Yeah there IS something there regarding aether-overexposure and mutation, but what?

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I suppose it's not out of the question that the processes are somehow related - aetherochemical and whatnot.
Controlled, systematic mutation could be part of the process.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Lastly, how can we classify these Frogs? They're frogs, but are also intelligent.

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If I remember correctly, the Poroggo of FFXI were created by a Tarutaru using the frogs of Windurst Waters way back in the Age of Magic. Despite this, they were considered a beastman race. Without more information, I'd probably start with Bloodborn > Spoken > Poroggo > Poroggo and go from there.

We can be sure that Moogles are not an allagan creations. Theirs stories of comes from the times before the first umbal era. So yea they pre date allag lol.

My theory is that quite a lot of the creatures plaguing modern Eorzea are, in fact, remnants and descendants of Allagan creations. We know they did a lot of experimentation involving the creation of creatures both for use in war and household pets. Perhaps Ochu and Kedtraps are related to the Corpse Flowers of Azyz Lla for example?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

My theory is that quite a lot of the creatures plaguing modern Eorzea are, in fact, remnants and descendants of Allagan creations. We know they did a lot of experimentation involving the creation of creatures both for use in war and household pets. Perhaps Ochu and Kedtraps are related to the Corpse Flowers of Azyz Lla for example?

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I can easily imagine the crazy minds of the Allagans inventing Morbols. That sounds like something they would come up with.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

I can easily imagine the crazy minds of the Allagans inventing Morbols. That sounds like something they would come up with.

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They're definitely a perfect fit for some sort of lethal bio-weapon. :p

Quest text says the Sharlayan civilization is thousands of years old, so their ways of creating magical things from animals and inanimate objects (the brooms) could be a by-product of mis-interpreted lost Allagan knowledge. I recall Y'shtola being shocked at the depth of depravity the Allagans were capable of, when she saw the experiments.

Didn't the spoken races discover magick centuries after the 3rd Astral Era? It's a stretch, but maybe Sharlayan is that missing civilization that caused the Calamity between Allag and Amdapor. Maybe that triggered the need to hoard knowledge so closely?

Either way, all roads lead to Allag (and Ascians)

That's a pretty goo theory, we don't know who caused the Iceage and the Sharlayan existed for a very long time.

It's easy to overlook, and its interesting, if not concerning that Sharlayan magic can pretty much "create" life in the form of their poroggo familiars/servants.

Remember Ixali Beast tribe quests?

They are building an Airship to get to a floating continent.

What if, over time, the story got corrupted (chinese whispers) but where they are trying to get back to is in fact where they where created, Azys Lla. That their memories of flight are genetic memories of their original stock that the Allagans used to genetically modify to create the Ixali.

Just like the Moogle legend of how they came to the twelveswood.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

What if, over time, the story got corrupted (chinese whispers) but where they are trying to get back to is in fact where they where created, Azys Lla. That their memories of flight are genetic memories of their original stock that the Allagans used to genetically modify to create the Ixali.

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The plaque in the Fractal Continuum seems to imply that they lost the power or flight due to genetic instability and weakness to the elements (which, combined with known Ixal lore, suggests that they were able to thrive under the protection of the Twelveswood and Elementals, but succumbed once forced into exile). The rest is right on, though, as recently all-but-confirmed by Yoshi-P via Bayohne.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Q30. Is the Iksalion that appears in the Fractal Continuum related to the Ixal? If so, is the Ayatlan they are searching for during the beast tribe quest actually the floating continent Azys Lla?

A30. Azys Lla, Azyslan, Ayatlan... Talking about it too much would take the fun away from it, so I think I’ll leave it at that. By the way, if you go and talk to a certain NPC in the Ixal beast tribe quest area after clearing this, their dialogue will change. There are a lot of other examples of this, so be sure to check out various NPCs.

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The dialogue change at the Ehcatl Nine camp is that after Sezul Razel tells you that they'll reach Ayatlan no matter what, he notices that you suddenly have a solemn expression and assumes that the majesty of Ayatlan has simply stricken you with awe.

I still find the similarities between Lalafell and Sylphs...suspicious.

It's understandable if you're worried about degrading the proud heritage of "Anony Moose"--as Baderon's log names you--but the question will be answered eventually. Wouldn't you feel better knowing sooner, rather than later?

C'mon, let's rip that band-aid off. ;P

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The dialogue change at the Ehcatl Nine camp is that after Sezul tells you that they'll reach Ayatlan no matter what, he notices that you suddenly have a solemn expression and assumes that the majesty of Ayatlan has simply stricken you with awe.

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I'm curious about this. Is this in one of the Ixal quests? After doing the Fractal Continuum I went back and talked to all the Ehcatl Nine and they didn't have anything new to say. I just talked to Sezul again to be sure and all he talks about is me being a true ally to them. I've done the final tying all the Beastman quests together quest, so it's not due to me not being far enough.

It's there. It's the guy with the "what is this place" and "what do you do" options

Hropkens might also be a product of Allagan tinkering, if the Proto-Hropken fish that can be caught in Azys Lla are any indication. Also, there's this....

http://en.ff14angler.com/?spot=0&fis...t=0&cmd=search

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Originally Posted by finiteHP

I went back and talked to all the Ehcatl Nine and they didn't have anything new to say.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

It's there. It's the guy with the "what is this place" and "what do you do" options

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Yeah, I named the wrong birdman, lol. It's Razel Huizan the Stationary - ask How fares the Ehcatl Nine?

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

C'mon, let's rip that band-aid off. ;P

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Yeah, maybe... >.> It's all very circumstantial evidence, though, and I'm not sure Fractal made it any stronger, lol.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

Hropkens might also be a product of Allagan tinkering, if the Proto-Hropken fish that can be caught in Azys Lla are any indication. Also, there's this....

http://en.ff14angler.com/?spot=0&fis...t=0&cmd=search

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Honestly, that tells me that the Allagans experimented on Lalas, just like liek they did Hyur and Roes

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Well, I remember ages ago several of us here (including you Moose as I recall) had a theory that the gigas at least were the result of Allagan genetic engineering and were created as a source of slave labour... given what we now though that theory is given increasing weight. After all, they even made cloning of the spoken possible (*cough* Unei and Doga *cough cough*) so this idea of the beastmen being the result of bizzare Allagan experiments just rings true.

Alas, that then blows holes in my own old theory that the 'early tribes' who were the original settlers of Eorzea back in the very First Astral Era after the Age of the Gods ended were not the spoken races at all but were actually the beastmen....

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The Allagans probably created Lalafells too.
:p

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Unlike anything else on Eorzea, compound #123 is thought to be another of the Allagan Empire's failed chimeric creations. The creature seems to be harmless enough, feeding only on the tiny water lice which inhabit Azys Lla's aetherochemical pools. Its outer hide, however, has given many a naturalist pause as it bears a texture almost identical to that of a Lalafell's skin.

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http://en.ff14angler.com/fish/388

If you look at the lore behind a lot of the fish in Azys Lla, they're primordial versions of current species. Maybe 123 is a proto-lala?

You wrote it awhile ago. But it was about personalize final fantasy 14 figures using 3d printing. I thought that it was a cool idea.

I want my lamia beast tribe and daily quests with lamia pretties

It could be that Ixali legends are kind of a mix of different myths. The Moogle of Moghome's legend of Moogle Mog said that there was once one large land in the sky but fire raining from the sky shattered it into many countless pieces. Perhaps the 'green fields' the Ixali speak of could come from memories of their home before the experimentation. In essence they got their stories mixed up. Or perhaps they existed on the sky islands for a time before something drove them to the ground.

On that, does anyone have any guesses on what disaster the Moogle legend speaks of? Calamity of Fire? Pissed of Nidhogg's brood on a rampage?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

It could be that Ixali legends are kind of a mix of different myths. The Moogle of Moghome's legend of Moogle Mog said that there was once one large land in the sky but fire raining from the sky shattered it into many countless pieces. Perhaps the 'green fields' the Ixali speak of could come from memories of their home before the experimentation. In essence they got their stories mixed up. Or perhaps they existed on the sky islands for a time before something drove them to the ground.

On that, does anyone have any guesses on what disaster the Moogle legend speaks of? Calamity of Fire? Pissed of Nidhogg's brood on a rampage?

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The moogles refere to the calamity of fire.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

On that, does anyone have any guesses on what disaster the Moogle legend speaks of? Calamity of Fire? Pissed of Nidhogg's brood on a rampage?

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

The moogles refere to the calamity of fire.

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This would've been the 3rd Umbral Calamity, the cause of which is still unknown. It's was assumed that the calamity of fire was due, at least in part, to Primal-Bahamut's original summoning by the Meracydians, though we know now Tiamat was responsible.

Hmm... wasn't Xande the one who had Meracydia invaded? Considering his rule lead to the Calamity of Earth, that wouldn't leave a great amount of time between the 3rd and 4th Umbral Calamities. Further it would seem odd that the Allag would survive a Calamity of Fire without major damage.

I am hoping we have a little less Allag in the next expansion. I love the Allag but there is so many other periods of time and Calamities I'd love to know more about. We know next to nothing about over half of them.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Hmm... wasn't Xande the one who had Meracydia invaded? Considering his rule lead to the Calamity of Earth, that wouldn't leave a great amount of time between the 3rd and 4th Umbral Calamities. Further it would seem odd that the Allag would survive a Calamity of Fire without major damage.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

An Eorzean Timeline.

Third Umbral Era - Element: Fire

Unknown Time --- Speculation: Possibly the rise of Bahamut?

Third Astral Era

~5000 (YA) ---

• Allagan Empire founded. Expands the entire continent of Aldenard and possibly Vylbrand.
• Allagan Empire constructs the Royal Allagan Sunway and Starway in present day Thanalan.
• Allagan Empire imprisons Bahamut. Possibly what brought about the end of the Third Umbral era.
• Xande creates the Allagan Empire becoming the first Allagan Emperor.

Fourth Umbral Era - Element: Earth

~4000 (YA) ---

• Allagan Empire's destruction ushers in the Fourth Umbral Era. Possibly due to imprisonment of Bahamut.
• Amon resurrects the first Emperor Xande, restoring the Allagan Glory as Xande proceeds to help conquer Meracydia which had long been able to withstand the Allagans.
• Earthquakes were caused by the Syrcus Tower's inability to handle all the energy being absorbed from the Sun. The Tower began to sink into the land and Amon used his magic to put everyone to sleep inside the Tower.

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Given the timeline, it would seem that the pre-imperial Allagan (feudalist maybe?), or those of an "old empire" invaded Meracydia and provoked the summoning of Bahamut. It wasn't until later that Allag scientists invented methods of subduing and imprisoning aetheric beings (Omega, "Dalamund", etc) -- born from necessity, no doubt, as there happened to be a rampaging Bahamut plaguing Hydaelyn. It was through the capture of primals (and eikons?) that Allag gained their power and rose to their technological height, then they became a (new?) Empire under Xande's rule.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I am hoping we have a little less Allag in the next expansion. I love the Allag but there is so many other periods of time and Calamities I'd love to know more about. We know next to nothing about over half of them.

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Same. The Allagan mysteries have to end at some point, though, right? ...right?

If I were in charge of planning out the ongoing narrative...

The 3.X patches will re-establish the Empire as our biggest threat when they claim the power of the Triad (or even some hidden consolation-prize power sealed behind a certain chained door), and our next expansion will focus on liberating Ala Mihgo as a foothold in striking back against the empire once and for all, as well as the Allagan legacy hidden in Gyr Abania. Our guide to the latter will be none other than the man who rebuilt Ultima Weapon, Nero tol Scaeva.

At some point in the ups and downs of all this, it will become apparent that we simply don't have the luxury of time to wait until we fully understand Allag's remnants on our own, and Nero will take a quick off-screen trip to grab a certain Allagan historian, unaware that he had sealed himself inside when he shut down the tower. With Ghost Noah's timely assistance, G'raha Tia will be released from the tower, and the two will bicker their way back to Ala Mihgo in time to save us from the latest reawakened Allagan horror.

Ala Mihgo will be liberated, and we will move on Garlemald. There we will confront Varis once and for all, as well as the true legacy of Allag hidden within the history of the empire. Nero will decide to use his talents to help rebuild Garlemald, G'raha will lay the shadows of the past to rest, and Cid will (20 years late) bury the hatchet with Midas and learn to see the good that still remains in his homeland.

The final result of that adventure will mean the end of Garlemald's hostilities, as they now understand the true cause of the primal threat (as in, Ascians). More "stuff" we can't predict will happen, and the heavy concentration of aether in Eorzea will spread across Hydaelyn, enabling us to use our aether-fueled superpowers on other continents, setting the stage for future expansions that don't need to be specifically gated by the current story arcs.

But I'm not in charge of writing FFXIV, so they could drag it all on for much longer.

No no guys dont mess up.
The calamity of fire was not beacuse of Bahamut, and wasnt pre allag who invade Meracyadia, was the allag empire. This we all know too well
That time line you got is and, you should try to find one more updated, it is even said that bahamut cause the calamity of earth LOL, you serious? hahahahaha
All the events, occurred during the 3rd astral era, I'm not sure if the invation of Meracya was during Xande's second rull or not, but an empire cant conquer almost the hole world in only 1 reing, im kind to believe that the empire grow up on time during Xande's mandates. Also I'm almost sure that when the allag empire was created that mark the end of the 3rd umbral era, and on this im not quite sure but It was not the calamity of fire. It was the 1st umbral, the calamity of fire, the end of the reing of the gods on the earth.

Im pretty sure in the CT it said that the invasion of Meracydia was ordered by Xande after his resurrection. Xande had dreamed of a world under Allag rule but had died before seeing it through. After being brought back he took up that goal again, hence ordering the invasion of Meracydia. Xande was the first and last emperor of the Allag. The Allag weren't an empire before then.

I seriously doubt the Allag had anything to do with the Third Umbral Calamity.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Im pretty sure in the CT it said that the invasion of Meracydia was ordered by Xande after his resurrection. Xande had dreamed of a world under Allag rule but had died before seeing it through. After being brought back he took up that goal again, hence ordering the invasion of Meracydia. Xande was the first and last emperor of the Allag. The Allag weren't an empire before then.

I seriously doubt the Allag had anything to do with the Third Umbral Calamity.

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I think you misunderstood your own interpretation. Xande was the first and the last, but that doesnt mean he was the ONLY emperor that ever ruled. There were tons of emperors between Xande's rules. All of them were Xande's decendants.

So yes The allag empire was always an empire, started and ended as en empire lol

To get back to the original question...

Maybe. So far, we have practically definitive proof the Ixal are genetically-degraded Iksalion, but nothing on the other beast tribes. As a scientific pursuit, we cannot assume all beast tribes are genetically modified / degraded versions of Allagan specimens until we have proof.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

To get back to the original question...

Maybe. So far, we have practically definitive proof the Ixal are genetically-degraded Iksalion, but nothing on the other beast tribes. As a scientific pursuit, we cannot assume all beast tribes are genetically modified / degraded versions of Allagan specimens until we have proof.

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But dont start saing that moogles were an allag creation xD
Thats dumb hahahaha

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

But dont start saing that moogles were an allag creation xD
Thats dumb hahahaha

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If that's true, and they were a later creation, its no wonder they're gone now...

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

I think you misunderstood your own interpretation. Xande was the first and the last, but that doesnt mean he was the ONLY emperor that ever ruled. There were tons of emperors between Xande's rules. All of them were Xande's decendants.

So yes The allag empire was always an empire, started and ended as en empire lol

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No, what I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure it says in the CT story that it was Xande who ordered the invasion of Meracydia after he had been returned to life as he wished to finish the goal he had never achieved in his first life: conquest of the world. I'll have a look through the cutscenes again when the servers come back up.

Do we actually have any evidence that points to Bahamut being involved in the Third Calamity?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

After being brought back he took up that goal again, hence ordering the invasion of Meracydia. Xande was the first and last emperor of the Allag. The Allag weren't an empire before then.

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Like I said no, Xande prorbaly conquered regions, during his first reing, but not all their wisherwere fullfiled. After him there were sure tons of emperors.
That doesnt mean that Meracydia was invaded by the allags during Xande's second reing, also most possible is that given he used voidsent powers, maybe that way + adavced allaga tech, he probably had a much longer life spen than before, defitly much more than normal standars. Im not say he was not during the invasion to merarcydia, i dont doubt that, but you also said that the allag empire didnt become an empire until Xande's second reing, and is on that were you are wrong

And yes Bahamut didnt involved the Thirn Calamity, and wasnt even a calamity of fire
Since the end of umbral and astral eras are dictated by men and not by worldwide events, Its much obious and that this point that the end of 3rd umbral was and the start of the astral meaned the birth of the allagan empire

I'm actually surprised that SE didn't do anything for the gigas in this expansion its said in a few fates that they come from the alabathian spine.

Maybe they will be involved in future patches.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

And yes Bahamut didnt involved the Thirn Calamity, and wasnt even a calamity of fire
Since the end of umbral and astral eras are dictated by men and not by worldwide events, Its much obious and that this point that the end of 3rd umbral was and the start of the astral meaned the birth of the allagan empire

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The first Umbral Era was one of wind, the next lightning, the third fire, the fourth earth, the fifth ice, and the sixth water. That's how it works. That's how the elemental wheel spins.

Whether or not the 3rd Umbral Era: the Calamity of Fire; was caused by Bahamut is debatable, but given the timing of Bahamut's capture by Allag, it's the most plausible scenario at this time.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

I'm actually surprised that SE didn't do anything for the gigas in this expansion its said in a few fates that they come from the alabathian spine.

Maybe they will be involved in future patches.

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They also worship the Crystal Tower, and prior to 2.1 that was about all we knew about the thing. And yet, despite the appearance of multiple giants in the raids themselves, for all the "answers" we uncovered while 'venturing into it, the only question that was never touched upon was the only question we had beforehand.

Maybe they have something big planned to tie everything together, or maybe when Yoshida says he'd never borrow elements from other games without fully taking ownership of them as a part of Eorzea, he means "except for CT, but that was a one time deal."