Why are Darks considered "Parry" tanks?

Warrior:
Defiance
Permanent 10% Parry.

Raw Intuition
100% Parry
Duration: 20 seconds.
Reuse: 90 seconds.


Dark Knight:
Dark Dance:
30% Parry
Duration: 20 seconds.
Reuse: 60 seconds.

I don't see why we are considered parry tanks. When one tank class parries much much better. . .

Supposedly it's due to DRK Repriesal only being available right after you parry

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Originally Posted by aerolol

Supposedly it's due to DRK Repriesal only being available right after you parry

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That doesn't increase their parry. =(

Who called them that? I thought they were the magic defense tanks. XD

I believe drks dont have one thing they excel at. Not to the overwhelming degree that forum min maxers think matter.

If anything, I'd call them magic defense tanks too.

Nah, DRKs are RNG tanks.

I think it's more that DRK has abilities that revolve around parry, reprisal and low blows. So it gets benefits from stacking the parry stat to get more use out of them. WAR doesn't have any mechanics that revolve around it parrying attacks.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I think it's more that DRK has abilities that revolve around parry, reprisal and low blows. So it gets benefits from stacking the parry stat to get more use out of them. WAR doesn't have any mechanics that revolve around it parrying attacks.

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And it makes no sense that wars get a boost in it.

Ive never heard them called Parry tanks....but I imagine its for the same reason they are called magic defense tanks.....one or two skills that have something to do with it.

I mean look, the only reason people call them magic defense tanks is because of Dark Mind....a 15-30% magic reduction for 10sec on a 1min timer.

Really? ONE skill that affects only magic damage and they are suddenly a magic defense tank?

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Originally Posted by Dererk

And it makes no sense that wars get a boost in it.

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Makes perfect sense, they don't have a shield to mitigate damage like Paladins do.

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Originally Posted by Timat

I mean look, the only reason people call them magic defense tanks is because of Dark Mind....a 15-30% magic reduction for 10sec on a 1min timer.

Really? ONE skill that affects only magic damage and they are suddenly a magic defense tank?

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In a world of
Rampart to Shadowskin
Sentinel to Shadow Wall
Bulwark (physical) to Dark Dance (physical/both)
Shelltron (physical) to Dark Mind (Magical).
It's obvious to see why Drk is considered the magical defense tank, because what deviates them from PLD in mitigation is when Drk gets more tools against magical damage but is unquestionably lacking compared to PLD in physical, partially because Pld has cooldowns that are.....physical damage only. The sole exception being Sentinels extra 10% which does not outweigh Dark Minds contribution (especially with it being on a third of the cooldown)
Who would've thought.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

In a world of
Rampart to Shadowskin
Sentinel to Shadow Wall
Bulwark (physical) to Dark Dance (physical/both)
Shelltron (physical) to Dark Mind (Magical).
It's obvious to see why Drk is considered the magical defense tank, because what deviates them from PLD in mitigation is when Drk gets more tools against magical damage but is unquestionably lacking compared to PLD in physical, partially because Pld has cooldowns that are.....physical damage only. The sole exception being Sentinels extra 10% which does not outweigh Dark Minds contribution (especially with it being on a third of the cooldown)
Who would've thought.

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you are forgetting delirium...

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Originally Posted by Hundred

In a world of
Rampart to Shadowskin
Sentinel to Shadow Wall
Bulwark (physical) to Dark Dance (physical/both)
Shelltron (physical) to Dark Mind (Magical).
It's obvious to see why Drk is considered the magical defense tank, because what deviates them from PLD in mitigation is when Drk gets more tools against magical damage but is unquestionably lacking compared to PLD in physical, partially because Pld has cooldowns that are.....physical damage only. The sole exception being Sentinels extra 10% which does not outweigh Dark Minds contribution (especially with it being on a third of the cooldown)
Who would've thought.

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There is no "tools" though....its tool...singular...one....thats it.

If you say something is a magic damage tank I would expect at least 2/3 things they can do that directly relate to magic damage reduction or something that others cannot.

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Originally Posted by KeairaBell

Makes perfect sense, they don't have a shield to mitigate damage like Paladins do.

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your post is flawed because DRK don't get a shield to so no it makes no sense wars get a boost in it.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

your post is flawed because DRK don't get a shield to so no it makes no sense wars get a boost in it.

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Non-shield-using tanks (ie: everyone but PLD) have options to buff their passive mitigation. The 10% at Wrath V also doesn't honestly matter that much because they almost never SIT at Wrath V for any length of time. In practice, WAR gets a tiny bonus mitigation as they build up Wrath right before spending it again/switching to Deliverance. Their average Parry boost is probably somewhere near 4% counting swaps/expenditures/slow build. DRK has procs off of it and have a larger spike of Parry (more useful) "on-demand." 30% with a 33% uptime.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

And it makes no sense that wars get a boost in it.

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We didn't until Heavensward. We got a crit bonus with Wrath stacks in Defiance. They wanted to give us something defensive for Defiance now that we have Deliverance also, and I guess Parry seemed like the only choice they could go with, since a straight defensive buff would've been too powerful (not to mention encroached on Paladin territory). They originally gave us a boost to an RNG-based offensive stat; now they give us a boost to an RNG-based defensive stat, so as to make the difference between Deliverance and Defiance more pronounced.

Parry is still super meh to Warriors, but I see the logic they used to choose it, even if nobody was super thrilled about it.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

And it makes no sense that wars get a boost in it.

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WARs had no real "on demand" defensive cooldowns. IB is nice but requires timing because it's on GCD. Having passive parry (not even close to 10% if you're a good WAR, over a whole fight), as well as a parry CD, gives us a 20-27% damage reduction cooldown when we need one.

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Originally Posted by Timat

There is no "tools" though....its tool...singular...one....thats it.

If you say something is a magic damage tank I would expect at least 2/3 things they can do that directly relate to magic damage reduction or something that others cannot.

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Are you getting into a battle of semantics?
When we say magical damage tank we don't mean all it does is magical damage, they lean towards magical damage because their coverage of magical damage is stronger, as PLD's coverage of physical damage is stronger.
The quantity of options is irrelevant +1 or -1 is all that is needed to skew a scale.

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Originally Posted by Timat

There is no "tools" though....its tool...singular...one....thats it.

If you say something is a magic damage tank I would expect at least 2/3 things they can do that directly relate to magic damage reduction or something that others cannot.

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The only real difference in applicability between the 100% reliable CDs the tank classes have are Raw Intuition/Shelltron being physical and Dark Mind being magical. If that's not "Magic Specialization", on top of brining the int-down debuff....

Dark Mind clearly gives DRKs a massive advantage in dealing with Magic damage, 30% on a 60 second cooldown is stronger than any other CD against magic by a lot.

Parry seems to have taken a nerf sometime in the recent past... And I think it's pretty plain that WAR needs a nerf. Just -wee- too jack-of-all-trades-y.

But Dark Dance is supposed to be the DRK 'default' mitigation CD. And it interacts with Reprisal. That's why they are the "parry" tanks.

The parry tanking seems strange and misunderstood. Basically---

Dark Knights have access two very short cooldown abilities, both of which underperform compared to higher cd powers but can be stacked. Dark Dance for 20 seconds/1 minute cd is 30%parry and 20% dodge, dark mind for 30% mitigation to magic. That defines Dark Knight---you have 'ok' cooldowns that you can throw low cd powers onto to supplement.

Warriors have the normal set of cds and have access to reactive healing types of cds (which have normal cds) and one short but restrictive damage cd that requires some forethought (IB).

Paladins have the normal set of cds and then ontop of that, another set of normal cds which generally are very specific in what they do (or out perform the same version that other classes have). Bulwark gives twice the block of dark dance, but has less uptime and about three times the cooldown for instance.


Dark: I have fewer cds but they are up more often
War: I have cds, some require some fore thought, others happen after I take damage
Paladin: I have lots of cds, but they on average have very long cds. I have to manage when to use them.

Because people refuse to go with Yoshi's stance that DRK is a magic based tank. Getting back to pushing mine to 60 after finally tanking Alexander. A3 has magic only phases & A4 itself has almost no physical attacks directed at the MT. Dark Mind basically guarantees a minimum of 70% mitigation during Discoid.( Grit(20%) + Shadowskin(20%) + Dark Mind(30%) )

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Originally Posted by Disc

Because people refuse to go with Yoshi's stance that DRK is a magic based tank. Getting back to pushing mine to 60 after finally tanking Alexander. A3 has magic only phases & A4 itself has almost no physical attacks directed at the MT. Dark Mind basically guarantees a minimum of 70% mitigation during Discoid.( Grit(20%) + Shadowskin(20%) + Dark Mind(30%) )

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Umm....you sure that is an additive stacking?

And again I am not sure I buy this "magic based tank thing that hinges completly and solely on dark mind"

Do you believe that a DRK will have a measurably easier time tanking A4 (or even just the tank buster if you want to narrow it down) than a War or Pld simply because of 1 skill?

Mitigation is multiplicative.

Old post about it: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...licative_what/

e: To clarify, though, Shadowskin + Shadow Wall + Dark Mind is the highest mitigation for magic damage currently (outside of Hallowed).

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Originally Posted by Timat

Umm....you sure that is an additive stacking?

And again I am not sure I buy this "magic based tank thing that hinges completly and solely on dark mind"

Do you believe that a DRK will have a measurably easier time tanking A4 (or even just the tank buster if you want to narrow it down) than a War or Pld simply because of 1 skill?

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Considering you can have DA Dark Mind up for every Perpetual Ray in the last phase of A4 it's pretty potent. Also, they have Delirium which reduces INT. So technically 2 skills. In a vacuum DRK is better against magic damage than the other 2 tanks.

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Originally Posted by stoxastic

Considering you can have DA Dark Mind up for every Perpetual Ray in the last phase of A4 it's pretty potent. Also, they have Delirium which reduces INT. So technically 2 skills. In a vacuum DRK is better against magic damage than the other 2 tanks.

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im not saying dark mind is bad, I am saying is that ONE skill good enough to define DRK as a magic based tank (which to me means a tank that can soak magic damage measurably easier than the others).

Also I am not counting Delirium since monks can provide the debuff as well..I am focusing on UNIQUE things that DRK brings to the table as a supposed magic based tank.

Basically if you can say swap dark mind and sentenial....would PLD suddenly become the magic based tank? If you swapped dark mind with foresight...would warrior become the new magic based tank?

When someone says this class is a magic based tank I expect it to be a bit deeper in its UNIQUE magic mitigation than one skill.

I mean...does rage of halone STR debuff alone make PLD the pyshical damage mitigation tank?

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Originally Posted by Timat

Umm....you sure that is an additive stacking?

And again I am not sure I buy this "magic based tank thing that hinges completly and solely on dark mind"

Do you believe that a DRK will have a measurably easier time tanking A4 (or even just the tank buster if you want to narrow it down) than a War or Pld simply because of 1 skill?

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Lol easily.

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im not saying dark mind is bad, I am saying is that ONE skill good enough to define DRK as a magic based tank (which to me means a tank that can soak magic damage measurably easier than the others).

Also I am not counting Delirium since monks can provide the debuff as well..I am focusing on UNIQUE things that DRK brings to the table as a supposed magic based tank.

Basically if you can say swap dark mind and sentenial....would PLD suddenly become the magic based tank? If you swapped dark mind with foresight...would warrior become the new magic based tank?

When someone says this class is a magic based tank I expect it to be a bit deeper in its UNIQUE magic mitigation than one skill.

I mean...does rage of halone STR debuff alone make PLD the pyshical damage mitigation tank?

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What are you doing with this stupid argument.
Block physical mitigation only, Sheltron 100% block 1 hit -physical mitigation only, Str down - Physical hits only, Bulwark increases block which is again physical only. Rampart/ matched by stone skin. Sentinel? A more effective Shadow Skin. Cover? Physical only

What leads PLD to any significance over its peers with magical damage.
Nothing. Everyone is relative to each other. Relative to the other two tanks, PLD has a physical advantage thats all there is to it, it is the physically dominant tank as the Drk is the magically dominant tank. How long will you continue an arbitrary discussion of "well its 1 ability or its 2 abilities, its not 3 abilities or its not 4 abilities so its not magical, its purple".
Come on.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Lol easily.

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Really? Cause ive seen PLD and WARs have no issue tanking A4. Some of which keep their HP at higher levels on average than most DRKs.

Ive tanked A4 as a DRK and I have DPSed it and seen it tanked (MT and OT) with all 3 tanks......none of which look to have any significant more difficulty tank it than the other.

Who said it was hard to do it as either? Ive tanked it as both WAR and DRK. Its not a problem either way, but Drk handles a4 easily. I pop the same cooldown, rinse and repeat stack another. I take less damage then my Warrior, its no biggie because the content allows you to do it with any comp but lol its easier on my Drk.


Why does this forum argue the most arbitrary crap?

Hundred is the hero we needed in this thread.

In a game like this, you can't have specialized roles in tanking, because then MagicTank can't tank physical encounters because physical encounters would be balanced for PhysicalTank and vice versa.
What you get is an edge, to make it slightly easier. Nothing more, and nothing less.

And that's why you only get one or two abilities.
Or in the PLDs's case, 4.

But then half of those four are also worthless against magical fights. Usually, Dark Mind and Delirium have at least some use in a physical fight, because there's usually an unavoidable AoE that deals magic damage.

So...Dark is a better magic tank. No one should debate this.

A4 is a joke, especially for a Paladin--no one should debate that either.

Lazer 1: rampart (a drk did shadow skin + dark mind---they took less damage). Heal yourself with clemency--with some fending gear and rampart, you wont be interrupted. The amount you heal for is largely about what you lost in mitigation. Dark also had delirium up.
Lazer 2: sentinel + cova. (a dark did wall + dark mind. They took less damage than you). Heal again---you are fine. You healed about 6-8K without a crit, which is probably more than than what you lost in mitigation. Dark also had delirium up.
Lazer 3: pop hallowed. Laugh at the damage--your healers can dps. A dark did skn + dark mind, taking substantially more damage than you, given you took 0.

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Originally Posted by Trespar

But then half of those four are also worthless against magical fights. Usually, Dark Mind and Delirium have at least some use in a physical fight, because there's usually an unavoidable AoE that deals magic damage.

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Curious---you site dark mind being useful in physical heavy fights cause of supplemental damage, but say (i imagine bulwark and sheltron) are useless in a4? There are adds however, or you might be the OT in phases 1 and 2. In my group, I generally act as an OT as paladin (or war) and I t take the first lazer (sent/ramo) he takes the second (skin/wall/mind) and then I hollowed the third---basically makes the fight a joke. My healers end up going offense and we sometimes dont even make it to the third.

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Originally Posted by Timat

Umm....you sure that is an additive stacking?

And again I am not sure I buy this "magic based tank thing that hinges completly and solely on dark mind"

Do you believe that a DRK will have a measurably easier time tanking A4 (or even just the tank buster if you want to narrow it down) than a War or Pld simply because of 1 skill?

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If it isn't additive then you're still looking at an easy 55% mitigation.

As for the significance of that one ability, yeah, it's a pretty big deal. It's basically a magic only Sentinel available every 60 seconds.

Dark Mind is very substantial IMO in creating the idea of Drk being more magic defensive.

Tank busters are far deadlier than general fluff damage. Sometimes, heavy ae\\'s can also be factored into tank survivability. If the meteor ae was magic (I don\\'t know for sure), dark mind would be useful in a situation like this.

Or in Ravana ex after second Warlord Shell there is a lot of damage on the MT and group as a whole with constant cleaves and ae\\\\\\'s. I imagine Dark Mind stacked with something could be useful.

But the biggest thing obviously are actual magical tank busters. They are equivalent in strength to Vengeance (Warrior\\\\\\'s strongest CD). And available 1 minute apart, and with many busters being at least one minute apart.. Having it used on every one is huge. A war would have to use ToB and Con maybe for every other one (plus obvious IB).

And Drk can stack something with it to make magic tank busters easy mode.

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Originally Posted by Abbul_Stonecleaver

Dark Mind is very substantial IMO in creating the idea of Drk being more magic defensive.

Tank busters are far deadlier than general fluff damage. Sometimes, heavy ae\\'s can also be factored into tank survivability. If the meteor ae was magic (I don\\'t know for sure), dark mind would be useful in a situation like this.

Or in Ravana ex after second Warlord Shell there is a lot of damage on the MT and group as a whole with constant cleaves and ae\\\\\\'s. I imagine Dark Mind stacked with something could be useful.

But the biggest thing obviously are actual magical tank busters. They are equivalent in strength to Vengeance (Warrior\\\\\\'s strongest CD). And available 1 minute apart, and with many busters being at least one minute apart.. Having it used on every one is huge. A war would have to use ToB and Con maybe for every other one (plus obvious IB).

And Drk can stack something with it to make magic tank busters easy mode.

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as far as i know all the meteors in the game so far are unaspected... but it scales off the users int (tested in world of darkness) but as far as i know dark mind has no effect on them for some reason hence why i think they are unaspected.