AST: Nocturnal vs Diurnal

I think if you ask most Astrologians that are clearing endgame content, they will agree with me in that Diurnal Sect is a good bit more powerful than Nocturnal Sect.

In Diurnal sect, you can use both Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition to aid your HoTs increasing their duration along with any cards you have on the affected players. In Nocturnal Sect, your shields break when the damage they prevent is done, leaving Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition free to be used for cards.

But when an AST utilizes the cards and HoTs properly as well as the buffs, Diurnal pulls ahead a great deal because each time you use Time Dilation or Celestial Opposition, you're doing way more healing in the long run.

Nocturnal shields break SCH Galvanize shields while Diurnal HoTs stack with WHM HoTs, but AST Hots from Diurnal will not stack with a fellow AST, however two WHMs can easily stack theirs. First of all, this gets very confusing to a new AST because they have no idea what will work and what will not.

A couple of things need to change here. First, don't make an AST feel forced to play as a sect they do not enjoy when paired with another AST. It takes a lot of fun out of the class; allow for their HoTs to stack just like a WHM. Second, change their shield from Nocturnal Sect effect from a damage absorption effect to a damage negation effect. Something small, but also something that will not break just because X damage was taken. Change their shields into a very small maybe 5% at most damage negation effect, thus allowing it to stack with Galvanize and also be effected by buffs like Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition. The single target effect from Aspected Benefic could produce a larger effect than the aoe version so it would not feel like it has become useless.

Iirc our hots do stack with each other

Nocturnal Stance is incredibly weaker and almost unplayable.

This is mainly due to the fact that shields don't stack and yet the mana cost remains the same. This non-stack includes stacking aspected helios and aspected benefic and stacking with SCH succor and adlo - though you would rarely take double sch to anything so you wouldn't heal in nocturnal with a SCH. Nocturnal shields are slightly lower potency as well in comparison to SCH potency.

In diurnal atleast you have the opportunity to stack aspected helios and aspected benefic on one player - you don't feel like you are wasting mana overriding the spell.

The MP cost in nocturnal stance outweighs the benefits. Maybe some free cast procs on Aspected benefic or helios would make nocturnal stance more attractive.

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Originally Posted by Beyondgrave

Iirc our hots do stack with each other

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They don't unless they've recently fixed it.

(Unless you're talking about Aspected Helios/Benefic which do. Just to be clear.)

The Nocturnal Sect needs a better boost in power than 5%. The asp. benefic is more efficient than Stoneskin, it costs less, heals, instant cast, is as powerful for most players (pure vit tanks) your ilvl, and it can also crit. However, you will be putting in more work with healing in general than Diurnal Sect. Nocturnal Sect is for healing only, and even though the barriers are helpful, the bonuses makes this sect pretty much broken even if a White Mage in the party with you. And having a White Mage in the party will increase everyone's Mind stat.

Diurnal Sect's regens are nothing to write home about, but they will stack with a WHM's regen effects. The asp. Benefic costs more than Regen and has a weaker effect, but unlike the WHM's Regen it does do an instant heal. Diurnal Sect is the go to sect for all things. You cast spells faster, which boosts your healing AND DPS, where as Nocturnal Sect only benefits healing.

I dont understand why they didnt allow SCH and AST shields to stack, they come from completely different jobs, so it should, as they do with regens with WHM. the AST class is so broken right now, i suspect they will fix it as the expansion matures.

WHMs regens stack and SCHs shields do not. It is the same concept here. AST and SCH shields don't stack as well. They don't want shields trivializing mechanics. Regens don't dramatically boost your effective HP; shields boost your effective HP.

AST is far from broken. It's just a tad bit weaker than the other two healers at the moment.

I've rarely used Nocturnal. Only when there's a WHM in party during easy 8-man dungeons just to get more familiar with it. I've also used it when solo'ing FATE NM's in the new areas (lvl 59 NMs, I was lvl 58 AST at the time) to try it out. Needless to say, I realized that Diurnal would've made the soloing easier. The shield is just not strong enough when you are getting crit hit 3 times in a row lol and I ended up using more MP trying to keep myself alive. I wish Nocturnal was more useful, I really like the moon icon, it's cute. D:

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

WHMs regens stack and SCHs shields do not. It is the same concept here. AST and SCH shields don't stack as well. They don't want shields trivializing mechanics. Regens don't dramatically boost your effective HP; shields boost your effective HP.

AST is far from broken. It's just a tad bit weaker than the other two healers at the moment.

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Aside from the fact theres never a reason to be in nocturnal stance. They could just have the shields potency be reduced when stacked, like 50%. At least youll get something out of it rather than just an expensive cure I. As it stands now: WHM/SCH > WHM/WHM > SCH/SCH > WHM/AST > SCH/AST > AST/AST.

You're missing the most important part of Nocturnal Stance's Aspected Benefic. It's 354 mana cheaper than Adloquium and Aspected Benefic is instant cast (I value mobility a lot).

There's never a reason to be in Nocturnal because there hasn't been a fight in 3.x where we needed mitigation. SCH is just preferred over AST because the job is just better.

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

You're missing the most important part of Nocturnal Stance's Aspected Benefic. It's 354 mana cheaper than Adloquium and Aspected Benefic is instant cast (I value mobility a lot).

There's never a reason to be in Nocturnal because there hasn't been a fight in 3.x where we needed mitigation. SCH is just preferred over AST because the job is just better.

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true, but i would just hate to see if in the future, every healer class would be picked over the AST. I remember playing as a SCH and ppl would hate having two SCH. The game should be playable with any combination of healers/dps/tank classes.

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Originally Posted by chumsy

true, but i would just hate to see if in the future, every healer class would be picked over the AST. I remember playing as a SCH and ppl would hate having two SCH. The game should be playable with any combination of healers/dps/tank classes.

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That's the issue right now. Ast brings zero utility to a group over whm/sch. Really hoping the incoming buffs fix that.

I'm currently leveling AST exclusively in dungeons to learn the job. So far (level 55) I've been using noct sect during trash pulls and diurnal sect during bosses. Haven't run into issues yet.

noctural stance add a "panic button" with Aspected Benefic (direct Hp + direct shield)

Never use noct in dungs no point, since dirunal is ez for trash and bosses. Pop both HoTs and afk. Only reason I would use noct is if the other healer is an astro. The problem is not that astro can do the current (ez) content more of it does not add anything compared to the other healz. All the dungs in HW are a joke to heal anyways.

So far the only thing I found really weak on Nocturnal is Collective Unconscious. Aspected Benefic's Nocturnal Shield is really strong, some people just find it weak because its not as strong as Adloquium. But hey, its cheaper and instant! Being instant it means you'll have a better use of it after a Benefic cast and not before. While Scholars have a good use of Adlo casting it before a Physick. Aspected Benefic's regen is also pretty unique, having a tiny heal before the regen buff ticks feels really nice.

Aspected Helios is the only spell I don't like much on AST, since is either a weaker Medica II (less burst potency, same regen, less range) or a slower Succor (almost same shielding and potency, higher cast time). While Aspected Benefic has Astrologian unique touch (instant shield or small heal before regen), Aspected Helios doesn't.

Healer compositions, like tank compositions, are not a "you should do this" anymore. While during 2.x we had SCH/WHM being better than any double healer duo, I think any healer duo (including doubles) has its pros and cons and the "best" is just based on your whole party and not healers only. This statement is based on the lack of our hardcore endgame content and I'm saying this based on the content we have at the moment (patch 3.01). But you should really try to have two different healers because of diversity and Limit Break purposes (it fills slower if you have repeated classes/jobs). Plus, even double healers being somewhet viable, they're not optimal. Also take a note that while WHM lost his protect and stoneskin supremacy, he still is the only healer with Mind Party Bonus.

The only real problem with Nocturnal Sect is Aspected Benefic. In Nocturnal, it's only ever your best heal in hyper-specific, niche scenarios that rarely crop up, and even when you do find yourself in those scenarios, it doesn't justify that specificity by even being particularly good at the job.

The thing about Adloquium on Scholar is that in addition to being a strong shield, in addition to having the crit bonus, etc, Adloquium is also the Scholar's "Cure II": Between the 300 potency heal and 300 potency shield, it's effectively a 600 potency heal (that doesn't require Aetherflow stacks) as long as shields aren't expiring or being overwritten.
On Astrologian, though, they still have Benefic II when they're in Nocturnal Sect. If they need a big heal, that's still the go-to skill. It's stronger, and it's more MP-efficient (620 potency versus 500 [250 heal, 250 shield], ~.78 pot/MP on BII versus ~.71 on AB).

The result? Aspected Benefic is a worse choice than Benefic II unless you either A) need to be able to cast while on the move, or otherwise can't afford the cast time, or B) you absolutely need to "heal" someone up past their max HP by applying the shield.
Scenario A is nice when it happens, Nocturnal Benefic is good at that, but it doesn't happen often. Scenario B is the more common situation by far, except that at a 250 (*1.05) potency shield, it's strictly inferior to Adloquium, even without factoring in the crit bonus on Adlo.


A better version of Aspected Benefic in Nocturnal Sect would be "Heals for 125 potency, and applies a shield that nullifies three times the amount of HP healed". Same overall potency (500), but actually suited to the uses that the skill has. A stronger shield than a non-Crit Adlo, but still far weaker than a Crit Adlo, and with a much weaker direct heal. Then AST would have their staple heal (Benefic), their big heal (Benefic II), and their shield (Aspected Benefic), each of which would be very well suited to the different jobs they're all meant to do.

I really like Nocturnal sect, because I used to play with SCH a lot back in the day, so shielding for me is fun. But yeah, it's a bit worse, actually quite a lot because it doesn't stack with time dilation and stuff.
On the other hand, one of sects will always be better than another one, it's like that people prefer Eos to Selene in dungeons.

One thing people forget though, is that Noc sect gives 5% passive in healing potency, which means that your aspected helios is 147 potency, which is just 3 potency behind scholars, so practically almost the same. Your benefict becomes also stronger and it's also cheaper in MP than WHM heal.

All in all I still rather stick to the idea of using Noc when WHM is in party, and Diurnal when SCH is another healer. It's just more fun, and adds a little chance to survive some situations.

Aspected Benefict is another story though, it should be able to crit like SCH adlo, or should just have as much potency as adlo.

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Originally Posted by Crater

The only real problem with Nocturnal Sect is Aspected Benefic. In Nocturnal, it's only ever your best heal in hyper-specific, niche scenarios that rarely crop up, and even when you do find yourself in those scenarios, it doesn't justify that specificity by even being particularly good at the job.

The thing about Adloquium on Scholar is that in addition to being a strong shield, in addition to having the crit bonus, etc, Adloquium is also the Scholar's "Cure II": Between the 300 potency heal and 300 potency shield, it's effectively a 600 potency heal (that doesn't require Aetherflow stacks) as long as shields aren't expiring or being overwritten.
On Astrologian, though, they still have Benefic II when they're in Nocturnal Sect. If they need a big heal, that's still the go-to skill. It's stronger, and it's more MP-efficient (620 potency versus 500 [250 heal, 250 shield], ~.78 pot/MP on BII versus ~.71 on AB).

The result? Aspected Benefic is a worse choice than Benefic II unless you either A) need to be able to cast while on the move, or otherwise can't afford the cast time, or B) you absolutely need to "heal" someone up past their max HP by applying the shield.
Scenario A is nice when it happens, Nocturnal Benefic is good at that, but it doesn't happen often. Scenario B is the more common situation by far, except that at a 250 (*1.05) potency shield, it's strictly inferior to Adloquium, even without factoring in the crit bonus on Adlo.


A better version of Aspected Benefic in Nocturnal Sect would be "Heals for 125 potency, and applies a shield that nullifies three times the amount of HP healed". Same overall potency (500), but actually suited to the uses that the skill has. A stronger shield than a non-Crit Adlo, but still far weaker than a Crit Adlo, and with a much weaker direct heal. Then AST would have their staple heal (Benefic), their big heal (Benefic II), and their shield (Aspected Benefic), each of which would be very well suited to the different jobs they're all meant to do.

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In order for that to be true the scholar would have to have so high of a crit to even reach a point of a crit going off that it would not matter. Astrologians having the shield you suggest would make them automatically stronger in the shielding department because they do not have to rely on crit for a stronger shield.

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

Never use noct in dungs no point, since dirunal is ez for trash and bosses. Pop both HoTs and afk. Only reason I would use noct is if the other healer is an astro. The problem is not that astro can do the current (ez) content more of it does not add anything compared to the other healz. All the dungs in HW are a joke to heal anyways.

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I am glad you are not a healer if you do not understand the value of Nocturnal Stance. A faster response shield at a critical time with a decent hp buffer will have many chances to save possible wipes and deaths as the expansion moves onward over the next year. Scholar threads about how much the job sucked was the staple the first half year of 2.0 but eventually people learned the true strength of the job. And the only real buffs scholar received back then was a smarter ai for fairy and lustrate changes.

I've found Nocturnal Sect most useful when I have a really squishy tank. Using a Diurnal Aspected Benefic on them is almost a waste, since their health drops so much faster than the Regen can do any work, so I end up spamming Benefic II just to keep them alive. With Nocturnal Aspected Benefic, I can at least get enough of a breather to alternate Benefic and Aspected Benefic.

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Originally Posted by Isala

I've found Nocturnal Sect most useful when I have a really squishy tank. Using a Diurnal Aspected Benefic on them is almost a waste, since their health drops so much faster than the Regen can do any work, so I end up spamming Benefic II just to keep them alive. With Nocturnal Aspected Benefic, I can at least get enough of a breather to alternate Benefic and Aspected Benefic.

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What is the point of alternating those two? Aspected benefic is like 10% cheaper, but has 120ish less potency then benefic 2.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

What is the point of alternating those two? Aspected benefic is like 10% cheaper, but has 120ish less potency then benefic 2.

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The fact is instant?
It's a great "oh shit" button following a casted heal when our big instant heal is on cd.

I watched a video on YouTube of an Ast healing the last Vault boss in Nocturnal and to be honest it looked like they had an easier time with it. (Tank was DRK)

I see everyone knocking Noct stance.. And here I am in love with it. I use Noct for most of Alex normal and the trys we put on faust we got the farthest while I was in Noct.

A1 I can keep Aspected Helios on everyone and the AOE does nothing to anyone this lets the other healer dps pretty much till the second add pops up. Aspected Helios + Bubble shield on the dive part is amazing as well and they again take no dmg.

A2 I am able to buff everyone and keep a aoe shield up without pulling aggro on everything. (medica II and Aspected helios Der pull so much aggro)

A3 is a toss up I like Noct but Dern takes the cake for this fight as well as A4

I think Astro could use a buff to Benefic potency so I can cast it more than Benefic II this would help with alot of mp issues. I have no issues in any experts or alex norm. I love the class and hope we can get savage done with me on astro as well. Again alittle buff would be nice to save some MP! :D

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

What is the point of alternating those two? Aspected benefic is like 10% cheaper, but has 120ish less potency then benefic 2.

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It's not a question of potency and cost. I mostly use it to keep their HP from pingponging all over the place. On a decent tank, you wouldn't even bother, but with a really bad one, it's either constantly shield them, or watch their HP constantly dip to half or less, because they're made of paper. I do that so that the Benefic I cast after hits them as they shatter my shield, and take a smaller chunk of damage, so I can follow it up with an instant Aspected Benefic and rinse and repeat. It's sloppy, and kinda sad that I have to resort to it, but if I was in Diurnal stance, such a squishy tank would be wasting my Regen anyway, due to the constant overheals coming from the Benefic II spam just to keep them up.

Since we're talking about stances here, actually after using it in A2 I've come to respect Noct a lot. It's a massive boost to heal, from 4.3k benefic 2 to 4.8k. I think that's even stronger than a cure II, no? If you saw the A2 clear vid,which inspired me to use noct as well to clear, you can tell it's very pwoerful and will scale more with gear.

If you have a squishy tank where a Diurnal Aspected Benefic + Benefic I spam is not enough (you should not have to Benefic II spam in most situations), pop Lightspeed, then Aspected Helios on them, Aspected Benefic, and if you have a Bole that too, and then give him Time Dilation to extend the HoTs and Buff. Time Dilation plus Lightspeed will save you mana and the HoTs should provide enough of a buffer that all you need to do is Benefic I spam with the occasional Benefic II or ED if he dips lower. Shouldn't be doing overhealing if you're doing that and also won't be using a ton of mana (just make sure never to heal to 100% with HoTs on him, since you want to leave some HP left for the HoTs to actually heal up). Also works well to heal through big pulls before bosses.

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Originally Posted by Richiealvian

Since we're talking about stances here, actually after using it in A2 I've come to respect Noct a lot. It's a massive boost to heal, from 4.3k benefic 2 to 4.8k. I think that's even stronger than a cure II, no? If you saw the A2 clear vid,which inspired me to use noct as well to clear, you can tell it's very pwoerful and will scale more with gear.

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If you use HoTs properly than Diurnal is actually more healing for less mana.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

If you use HoTs properly than Diurnal is actually more healing for less mana.

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Yes - but the fact its slow healing over time also makes it less effective in very high damage situations where you'd rather have stronger healing this second than extended duration mana efficiency.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

Yes - but the fact its slow healing over time also makes it less effective in very high damage situations where you'd rather have stronger healing this second than extended duration mana efficiency.

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Not really. HoTs offer a buffer of constant healing - far more than you'd get with the shields - acting as a supplement to Benefic I/II/ED spam. They aid in keeping your target's HP up and allow you to spend less mana because you don't have to spam Benefic II as much, especially if you have both HoTs up on your tank (two HoTs is an extra 150 potency every 3 seconds which makes up for that tiny loss in potency on Benefic I/II). Plus casting them with Lightspeed, they're much cheaper as well, and getting them up instantly gets the tank the buffer they need quickly. Then you should be able to get a few cheap Lightspeed Benefic II's up before it wears off and you can go back to Benefic I with II/ED as needed. It's really a much better way to keep someone healed up. It's more healing, less mana, and less spammy. Besides, your 5% extra healing is cancelled out by the fact that I can cast 5% faster (along with having a shorter GCD) in Diurnal stance, so I'm putting out the same amount of potency/GCD with my Benefic I/II as you are with the added benefit of free HoTs rolling, and all you have is a shield that will break instantly and waste your mana.

The thing about shields is they become more valuable as better gear becomes available. This is true for sch/noct ast both. my only HUGE issue with noct is the cds-noct CU isn't worth it's tradeoff except for phase changes on primals and the like, and not being able to extend shields with TD/CO (I think CO should get an assize-like effect based on stance personally, would make our lvl 60 skill not friggin terrible for a 2 and a half minute cd).

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Originally Posted by LycorisSelunis

The thing about shields is they become more valuable as better gear becomes available.

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Yes but this is true for HoTs as well. And for everything every class does for that matter. Everybody's skills become more powerful and valuable as they get better gear... that's the point of getting better gear. The only thing a better Noct shield would be good for would be tank buster's where you can prevent a portion of damage before it happens. Outside of that though, you're going to get more from a Diurnal stance AST and might as well just bring a SCH for those few times where you really need damage prevention, because they have more and better damage prevention anyway.

Maybe only somewhat related, but Noct stance feels like the stance for AST to use in PvP.

The instant heal+shield is much more effective where there is just no time to let HoTs run their course.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Maybe only somewhat related, but Noct stance feels like the stance for AST to use in PvP.

The instant heal+shield is much more effective where there is just no time to let HoTs run their course.

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oh its really good in pvp.. i can have 5 ppl on me and i dont die (without any pvp gear)

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Originally Posted by silverhope

oh its really good in pvp.. i can have 5 ppl on me and i dont die (without any pvp gear)

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Maybe this is the reason they are reluctant to change it for pve and we'll end up stuck in a place where we normally have to go diurnal for pve and nocturnal for PvP. I really hope it doesn't come to that though.

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Originally Posted by NyxVampiria

Maybe this is the reason they are reluctant to change it for pve and we'll end up stuck in a place where we normally have to go diurnal for pve and nocturnal for PvP. I really hope it doesn't come to that though.

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Doubt it. Besides, I kind of feel like silver is exaggerating having 5 people on her and not dying; if any of those 5 are worth their salt, there will be a stun or two and a dead AST.

Noct sect shields are good, but not that good. It's just the better of the two in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Doubt it. Besides, I kind of feel like silver is exaggerating having 5 people on her and not dying; if any of those 5 are worth their salt, there will be a stun or two and a dead AST.

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This was my first thought. I haven't PvPed in FFXIV yet but I'm primarily a PvPer in every other game I play with PvE as the second thought activity, and in every game that's the case. If a healer or any other person can hold off several other players, then those players are bad, regardless of the healer's skill. And considering this game is mostly PvE, I don't expect many players here to honestly be skilled PvPers.

Nocturnal is stronger in pvp at least.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I am glad you are not a healer if you do not understand the value of Nocturnal Stance. A faster response shield at a critical time with a decent hp buffer will have many chances to save possible wipes and deaths as the expansion moves onward over the next year. Scholar threads about how much the job sucked was the staple the first half year of 2.0 but eventually people learned the true strength of the job. And the only real buffs scholar received back then was a smarter ai for fairy and lustrate changes.

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Smarter AI and Lustrate were massive. Like game changers. No idea why you would attempt to down play those changes. And it was not just smarter ai, we also gained ability to macro fairy skills and also drag fairy skills on to your bars.

Sch got a lot of help over time to get it where it is today, so I do not see why you would go out of your way to quiet voices of people who are not happy with the class.

Those are the people that are gonna get the class where it needs to be. If sch's allowed themselves to be chased off forums by angry whm's every time they complained that things weren't working and the class needed help we would probably still have sch from release.. So don't stop kicking up a fuss, the devs do hear us so keep speaking up about the class to get it where it needs to be.