Oh the irony in the recent live letter Q n A

So! We have a wonderful choice of who sucks please help me threads. Many people with differing opinions and yoshida simply saying "get good" in a nutshell. We have all these conflicting points of interest i think its about time we rallied on the real issue. I think we should get some in-game tutoring on our roles.

Now im not talking about a one trick pony rotation, i mean rotations tailored to each role and different situations they can be placed in. For example: they should offer a paladin a main tank rotation, off tank rotation and aoe management. (Spam flash isnt management its lazy)

This is Final Fantasy, they love story lines so tie in how to play the actual class under our appropriate guilds.... i mean why else do the guilds exist anyway if not to help the player.

Or if thats too much bassle, give everyone a f****** parser.... fyi, roles are getting excluded without one. Only valid arguement against "elitism" null and voided.

B-but parsers are evil incarnate used for harrasment! Yada yada.

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Originally Posted by Draciella

This is Final Fantasy, they love story lines so tie in how to play the actual class under our appropriate guilds.... i mean why else do the guilds exist anyway if not to help the player.

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Personally I like this idea. Give the guilds a sort of "class" that players can take to improve their skills.

Ironically, screenshots of parser tables on reddit showed that BRD and MCH are capable of competitive DPS in Ravana EX and the like.

Capable? Yes, no doubt. But the majority of the bards/mch dont know these rotations and are requesting buffs. Knowledge is the problem. Getting a lesson from the guild master would solve that. Then if people can out do the guild master/ the dev's then it should be bragged about on the forums and reddit. There would be no better feeling than outclassing the creator of your class eh?

Since I started playing MMOs, I've always been a strong believer that there needs to be a tutorial for every job that explains the basic rotations. Not every player would pay attention to it, but it'd certainly make a noticable difference imo -- especially for people like me that pretty much rely on duty finder. I do my best to explain fights to people, but especially when it comes to DPS check fights, knowing mechanics isn't always enough.

Some people might argue that we already have player-made tutorials, but that's only for players willing to look them up outside of the game. If the general population of players were willing to research things themselves outside of the game, I think I wouldn't see a bunch of "I've never done this fight, please explain mechanics" in almost every trial run I do. :P (It's especially true in SoF for some reason) And no I'm not trying to change the topic about fight mechanics, just that there're plenty of players who don't bother researching their job outside of the game.


Keep in mind I'm not saying there needs to be a tutorial that explains every little thing, just a basic one so people have a better idea of how to play their job.

Or at the very least let us have an in-game parser so we can monitor our DPS and others around us. Not only will it be beneficial for learning better DPS but in DPS check fights we can see who isn't pulling their weight and it can be an eye opener for players who truly think they are doing well.

If we can rally this, i think it would be a huge help to df anything

They tell you to play better, put in dps checks everywhere, but ban the usage of parsers.

How can one know what they're doing is any better or worse than if they did it another way, without some way to measure?

There are times when I think having a XIV successor of Maat wouldn't be a bad idea. Better implemented of course. Someone who follows your progression and helps train you in specific conditions, eventually leading up to a very solid fight that encompasses all that you learn.

Let the casuals be casuals and let the good player proceed.

Everybody wins. The Casuals either git gud or git caryd and the good players get to enjoy their exclusive content.

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Originally Posted by Parryacg

Let the casuals be casuals and let the good player proceed.

Everybody wins. The Casuals either git gud or git caryd and the good players get to enjoy their exclusive content.

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The problem with all of this is people get the echo, so clueless people eventually get through. And sadly SE takes everybodies cash so content will always be of mixed abilities. Not all of us have a static to run everything with everyday. Im not just focused on dps, this should hopefully be applied to tanks on cooldown management, rotation priorities and to healers, single target vs group heals, precasting and buff usage/debuff cleansing. Id like to think im a good tank but i know my dps game seriously lacks....

If you're a solid tank, why worry about DPSing?

You got the insta-queues, you got the power to control parties, I don't see a problem. With that said, people can dislike my comments all the want, but no amount of echo is going to carry a party that miserably fails at mechanics.

To me it seems Alex normal is actually the first thing that is going to challenge players a little bit and maybe make people better in general. That is if SE doesn't end up nerfing it like everything else.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

They tell you to play better, put in dps checks everywhere, but ban the usage of parsers.

How can one know what they're doing is any better or worse than if they did it another way, without some way to measure?

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Agreed. They put DPS checks but no parsers lol. It's so weird to me and the fact you can get banned for one? Crazy! I used to play DCUO and that showed dmg numbers and it never was a problem.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

To me it seems Alex normal is actually the first thing that is going to challenge players a little bit and maybe make people better in general. That is if SE doesn't end up nerfing it like everything else.

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I have a feeling they'll nerf floor 4 in some way. I've grinded it in DF though and doing coil that way was much harder so maybe they won't.

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Originally Posted by Parryacg

If you're a solid tank, why worry about DPSing?

You got the insta-queues, you got the power to control parties, I don't see a problem. With that said, people can dislike my comments all the want, but no amount of echo is going to carry a party that miserably fails at mechanics.

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Id like to be able to join a party finder or duty finder and have a good time, not be hesitant and expect the worst. This is a team game with a team effort, i cant clear any content unless the dps/healers are upto scratch. Find the team spirit!

They wouldnt need to nerf if people were comfy doing their tole to its best potential. Once thats in hand im sure mechanics wont be too far behind

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Originally Posted by Draciella

Id like to be able to join a party finder or duty finder and have a good time, not be hesitant and expect the worst. This is a team game with a team effort, i cant clear any content unless the dps/healers are upto scratch. Find the team spirit!

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the phrase of the day is; "Trust yourself, not randoms"

If I wanted to rely on someone, I'll rely on my friends. Friends are quite easy to make as a good tank, too.

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Originally Posted by Parryacg

If you're a solid tank, why worry about DPSing?

You got the insta-queues, you got the power to control parties, I don't see a problem. With that said, people can dislike my comments all the want, but no amount of echo is going to carry a party that miserably fails at mechanics.

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This. You can be unsynced lvl 60's with full echo doing T5 and still wipe.

in FFXI, they released a battle for the job "Rune Fencer", where you could chose a difficulty level (Item level 109, 129, 135, something like that) that were difficult to do but doable with skill and gear and just knowing how to play your job. The challenge of the 135 one is real, you will not win without a good mix of knowing what abilities to use, when to use them, and a good strategy. They're very challenging and reward you with materials to upgrade your armor if you can complete it, as well as a unique title for winning.


What I'm getting at, is Guilds should offer unique Leve-like quests that really push your knowledge of the job. Think of it like "Learning" the job in a "Crash Course" sort of way. They can start with a difficulty similar to what you'd expect from a Hard Mode dungeon, something you can do with a little knowledge, and go on to be difficult like Coil or even Savage coil, with increasing rewards for increasing difficulty, with the ultimate goal of teaching people who to play their class well. Some examples

GLA/PLD, - Managing Multiple Enemies.
Objective: You have 5 targets in range and our Black Mages are ready to attack. Get in there and hold hate.
Victory Conditions: Defeat all 5 enemies without losing hate on any of them.
Failure Conditions: Losing hate on a single enemy fails event.
How it works - Black mages wont attack for 2 seconds once enemies are pulled, after that, they will do AoE rotations (Fire II, etc) to defeat the enemies, a CNJ will be there to keep you alive, your only goal is to keep hate on all targets throughout the fight.
What it teaches you: Keeping hate on multiple enemies with AoE-heavy jobs using aoe spells.

BRD(Job Specific): Defeat the enemy without letting your healer run out of MP.
Objective: Utilize your abilities to defeat an enemy and assist your party.
Victory Conditions: WHM Stays above 25% MP throughout the fight.
Failure conditions: Enemy not defeated withint 5 minutes or WHM drops below 25% MP.
What it teaches you - Managing your Songs while maintaining your DPS.

NIN - DoT Applications.
Objective: Utilize your Attacks and DoT effects to defeat the enemy.
Victory Conditions: Enemy is defeated within 3 minutes
Failure conditions: Enemy survives longer than 3 minutes
How it works: Enemy will cycle between taking heavy physical damage and reduced DoT damage, and heavy DoT damage and reduced physical damage. Only by utilizing your DoT effects and melee will you succeed.
What it teaches you: Use your darn DoTs, they're part of your rotation for a reason.

Each one doesn't need to be a specific goal, they could be as simple as defeating enemies within a time limit or such to maximize your potential, with some of them training you in very specifics aspects of the job that help you learn rotations and the importance of certain things. Could even have a "Score board" or "Time Attack" mode/display when winning so you can see your own improvements and battle/play against yourself or other players on your server. Either way, if the rewards were worthwhile (even really cool job specific glamours, high amounts of Exp/gil something) it might garner enough attention and teach people how to better do their job. In the same light, it would give those with a competitive spirit a way to measure their rotations/knowledge against others. (Maybe with an option to post your score/name or not)

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Originally Posted by SoulSeekerUSA

I am level 17 Arcanist and when I try to join the culinary guild it says I have to at least be a level 10 in my class. And I am putting this here because it wont let me create a new thread, which is stupid, how the hell are new players supposed to get help. Idiots.

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You have to do your level 10 arcanist quest and get permission from the ACN guildmaster before you can join other guilds.

Personally, I am SO happy Yoshi P told the players to essentially #getgood. Let's be honest, the Devs are VERY good about listening and making appropriate adjustments but they can't fix bad players. I'm willing to bet 95% of some of the problems players are experiencing are user errors. "Rotations are too hard" "Looking for Aether currents is too hard" "We need a token system for the token system" seriously!? Has the majority of the player base turned into entitled, spoiled brats that just want EVERYTHING handed to them? (MMOs are a timesink by nature before anyone says "we don't all have time to play the game for hours on end." If you can't put in the time and effort, MMOs aren't for you because this IS what MMOs are.) Have people just stopped trying to put in time and effort? I guarantee you if they made this game any easier, people would start complaining that it's TOO easy and where's the challenge. The game is challenging enough as it is and the first time they introduced a unique fight(Steps of Faith) it got nerfed. I'm really surprised The Chrysalis didn't get a nerf. Sometimes... SOMETIMES! Something requires work. It requires effort. It requires that hardship so when you finally master a fight, a job, or finally get that piece of loot you've grinding for, it's that much more satisfying. Stop asking for things to be easier and just put in some work! I understand somethings are just broken right out of the gate but also, sometimes you just have a bad luck streak. That doesn't just apply to FFXIV, it applies to RL. Deal with it. Thank you, Yoshi P. The more you say "no" to a spoiled brat, the faster they learn to deal with problems rather than have them dealt for them.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

They tell you to play better, put in dps checks everywhere, but ban the usage of parsers.

How can one know what they're doing is any better or worse than if they did it another way, without some way to measure?

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Of course, because people are wont to look at the DPS number, look at the lowest and kick them.
Because people try to use dummy numbers as proof of what we should be doing in the middle of a raid fight where we're dodging AoEs, killing adds, using mechanics etc.

The best reason to not give us parsers is because we literally do not need them.
Would it be nice to know our exact dps output at any given second? Sure would be.
Is it required to clear content? absolutely not.

If you have the minimum ilvl required to enter a dungeon/raid, you have the minimum dps/healing required to beat that content.
With gear being linear, our DPS is purely based on skill. How well you can play your job under duress in a boss fight.

We have the tools to beat the bosses, a built in parser would be entirely pointless outside of micromanaging your rotation.

Better = killed it quicker than your last try (obviously within the same group)
Worse = you didn't kill it.

I'm not sure why you need to see the exact numbers for making the boss dead.

Yo bros, its called guildhests

Teaches you everything you need to know about end game dps, heals, and raiding

Get gud

I think both the rotation lass an a parser would be good. But if they gave us a parser let it show only your dps. Like for a dps check In fight let it show that you need to be doin 900 dps or what ever to do your part of the fight that way u know if ur doing ur job well or not an if ur in a group then u can share your dps if u want to that way u can say hey guys I did my part or sorry we died it was partly my fault. But the rotation class idea I would love to have cuz I know my tank dps sucks but am not sure what to do an would love to know on ps4 where I stand really

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Originally Posted by Bal

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Except then you would have people looking at their own numbers and saying "Well MY dps is 1000, therefore, it cannot possibly be me who caused that wipe!"
When in actuality, they were so focused on their own personal DPS, they failed to switch to the adds or move away from an avoidable AoE.

Then of course, with no way to check if someone was telling the truth about their numbers you won't ever find out who is really underperforming anyway.

Right now, with no parsers available, every DD wonders "Did i do enough DPS? Could i have done better?"
Now you have 4-5 DDs all trying harder.

If you so desperately need to know your DPS, there's programs for that. But lets not go the way of many other MMOs where the almighty DPS Meter rules everything.

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Originally Posted by Jayjohn

Yo bros, its called guildhests

Teaches you everything you need to know about end game dps, heals, and raiding

Get gud

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Guildhests, thats a good one lol. My god.

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Originally Posted by DukeBurden

Snip.

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*bigthumbup*

The rotation-guides could help , sure, but i think the main problem with the bad players is that they dont even read the skills description or think a bit about them, for example with nins, i've seen plenty of them not using ta and when i ask why not they say you cant use them if your not invisible , sure they're right about that but you can get there by using suiton, but sometimes i think they only look at the potency and think , raiton for ninjutsus for example, its the highest potency so i need only that one ( and many not even cast huton) same goes for dots / slashing debuff

There [is] a thing called reading the tooltip.

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

You'd be surprised at how many don't even bother.

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And you'd be surprised at how fast they'd get kicked out of a decent party, too.

This is similiar to the titan issue peopel complained about and yoshi told us to zoom out our cameras. Mudra lag is a thing and its annoying.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of an in-game rotation tutorial/class for the respected jobs. Doesn't even have to be meta-based or even required. Can be 100% optional.

Tooltips only tell you what the skill by itself can do on a basic level. The issue is with people not knowing when to use said skill and how combo-ing certain skills together can improve on what you're doing.

Back in my day, we learned the hard way. I remember my first raid back in TBC in WoW. I got kicked after the boss because my dps was awful. Guess what I did? I went to the 5 million forum posts and read a post on how to play my class.

The information is there. If they don't read a forum post, they won't listen to a guild master tell you what buttons to push. They won't look at their integrated parser and realize they need to improve. Anybody is capable of being decent at MMO's. It's not like you need to be some sort of super human athlete to pull competitive DPS. It's the attitude. Shit players are shit because they don't care to get better.

Kick these players from raids, and maybe they will learn when they stop clearing content. Until then, it's working for them, why change?

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

There are times when I think having a XIV successor of Maat wouldn't be a bad idea. Better implemented of course. Someone who follows your progression and helps train you in specific conditions, eventually leading up to a very solid fight that encompasses all that you learn.

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I did Maat fight with MNK, and it taught me through trial and error to push burst damage in a short time. It was a good learning experience. Also The Secret World had a gatekeeper solo fight before you could enter the hard versions of the dungeons. The fight was different depending on which role you did it in. DPS, tank or healer. Really pushed you as Maat did. A solo trial before hard content would be a good addition, can't get past? Can't do hard content. #as a bonus would wreck Mercs customers XD.

I think tutorials would be awesome, both as a friendly way to keep players "in game" and teach and as well let people know what SE intended vs what is happening - sort of gives people a reference (not that doing something else would be bad, but it could be telling of balance intention, future, and set -some- expectation).

Also I think it could be a good idea to require successful completion of some of these loretorials, would improve the quality of DF by reducing stress on both learning players (have a better idea of what to do with their self, so they can focus on the strategy of the fight) and players who are experienced by playing with generally more prepared players. And if someone was slacking off on a mechanic of their job, at least you knew they know how to play it and were refusing to do it just because. Of course for MSQ this should be optional and non-required. The intention is not to make it "hardcore or git" but to make everyone happier.... Maybe it's too wishful or costly for development (each job/archetype requiring a serious of increasingly thoughtful tutorials that lead to well prepared players).

The current job quests, imo, are backwards by the fact they give you the ability at the end rather then at the beginning and teaching you how to incorporate it.

Combat has too many things to micromanage.

I'm quite happy dumping all my skills into one or two macros and just spam clicking those buttons throughout the fight. Sure, it may suck for dps. But, I don't care; I'm not a min-maxer.

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Originally Posted by Vyshan

Combat has too many things to micromanage.

I'm quite happy dumping all my skills into one or two macros and just spam clicking those buttons throughout the fight. Sure, it may suck for dps. But, I don't care; I'm not a min-maxer.

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Indeed, you are not a min-maxer, but you aren't even remotely trying to be somewhat usefull to whatever group you end up in.

If people already don't read tooltips or do guildhests, what makes you think they'd use tutorials? The tools to learn how to play your class are right there; the problem is that the majority of the players don't care enough to use them.

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Originally Posted by NoctisShiva

The rotation-guides could help , sure, but i think the main problem with the bad players is that they dont even read the skills description or think a bit about them, for example with nins, i've seen plenty of them not using ta and when i ask why not they say you cant use them if your not invisible , sure they're right about that but you can get there by using suiton, but sometimes i think they only look at the potency and think , raiton for ninjutsus for example, its the highest potency so i need only that one ( and many not even cast huton) same goes for dots / slashing debuff

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Actually the problem is that this game is 85% solo, so when you get a new skill, if it doesn't fit your rotation while you are soloing, then you will not use it as often. Thats why I laugh at people who say BRD is support. What songs are you singing when you solo? Swiftsong? lol. So these players go through most of the game not knowing about which situations to use said abilities because they don't encounter those situations until endgame. The solution, IMHO, to fix at least half of the problems in this game is to either make it more difficult to solo, or add more group play at lower lvls. One of the best ways to teach someone is firsthand experience