War ssshhhh

Warriors lets keep quiet about how awesome we are, and maybe devs won't nerf us lolololol.

Nerf based on what? We've now made paladins obsolete? :rolleyes:
Nobody planning to run paladin in Alexander because of OP warriors? :rolleyes:.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

Warriors lets keep quiet about how awesome we are, and maybe devs won't nerf us lolololol.

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From what numbers people have been getting, warrior is only ahead in DPS on fights that have good burst windows. MTing PLD destroys them, OTing, they only survive by being a little better than DRK and people not wanting two paladins, since paladins have sustained dps on par with warrior now.

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Originally Posted by Tila

MTing PLD destroys them

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Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

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Originally Posted by Tila

From what numbers people have been getting, warrior is only ahead in DPS on fights that have good burst windows. MTing PLD destroys them, OTing, they only survive by being a little better than DRK and people not wanting two paladins, since paladins have sustained dps on par with warrior now.

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well having a war OT will still give you a high dps.
10% reduced damage all the time.
10% slashing damage buf all the time.

with this war wont be obsolete

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Originally Posted by Tila

From what numbers people have been getting, warrior is only ahead in DPS on fights that have good burst windows. MTing PLD destroys them, OTing, they only survive by being a little better than DRK and people not wanting two paladins, since paladins have sustained dps on par with warrior now.

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You mean like almost every fight so far in the expansion?

Dummy parses don't mean anything if they are not applicable to real fights.

Don't get me wrong PLD's are in a great spot right now as well.
But I think you are underestimating War mitigation, and slightly exaggerating PLD dps.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

Warriors lets keep quiet about how awesome we are, and maybe devs won't nerf us lolololol.

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Well, you already lost the auto-crit heals in the hotfix so... >.>

I still suspect we'll see Fell Cleave get beat with the nerf stick.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I still suspect we'll see Fell Cleave get beat with the nerf stick.

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Based on what, the similar parses that both Drk and Pld are putting out in their DPS stances?



Put some things in perspective here...
150 Heavy swing, 200 Skull Sunder, 280 Butchers block = 630 potency
150 Heavy swing, 190 Maim, 270 Storms eye = 610 Potency...

150 Hard Slash, 220 SpinningSlash, 300 Power slash = 670 Potency
150 Hard Slash, 250 Syphon Strike, 280 Delirium Blade = 680 Potency.
150 hard slash, 250 Syphon strike, 400 DA Soul Eater = 800 Potency...

Lets say a Warrior already is under Maim and someone else is applying Storms eye for him. His strongest combo then is the BB combo.
He runs that twice (1260 potency), then does Heavy Swing and Skull sunder (1610 Potency) all together... Now he has 5 stacks and hits Fell cleave (2110) Potency. 2110 Potency after 9 attacks.

The Drk comes in, again someone has applied storms eye for him already.
Dark arts Soul eater combos three times for 9 attacks as well for 2400 potency.... aka 13% more. In raw Potency the warrior is losing out.
We certainly can also consider Berserk. We should also consider that Fracture is 300 potency and Scourge is 500, aka 66% more potency... We'll also have to ignore the DRKS off the GCD attacks such as Dark Passenger, Plunge, Salted Earth,reprisal, etc....

Warriors have burst damage. Fell Cleave being nerfed would be be very ignorant. If theres a real advantage here its partially in equilibrium giving back TP. The Drk is going to tap out earlier unless a DPS gives him some TP to use and then he'll end up Unmend spamming.

Granted in actuality... If this was set-up with a Drk and War both aiming to DPS at the same time. The war would have to get Maim set-up and have to deal with the reduced potency of the Storms eye combo and the Drk would benefit off the warriors Slashing debuff, while having Dark sides benefits from the very start.

Tank damage difference is not large at all. Theres what a 910 parse of Drk already?

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Based on what, the similar parses that both Drk and Pld are putting out in their DPS stances?

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Not saying I think it's right or wrong since I haven't looked much into it. It's a sneaking suspicion based on the fact that I've heard of it doing ridiculously high amounts of damage. That's all. Hopefully SE looks at the big picture. ^^

I need to level up my Warrior to see what all the fuss is about, in any case. So much to do, so little time. >.>

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Not saying I think it's right or wrong since I haven't looked much into it. It's a sneaking suspicion based on the fact that I've heard of it doing ridiculously high amounts of damage. That's all. Hopefully SE looks at the big picture. ^^

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The ridiculously high amounts of damage that Fell Cleave has done are very limited and based on perfect conditions. Essentially the pic everyone is talking about of Fell Cleave doing 11k damage is on Ravana EX when the WAR had maim, Storm's Eye, Berserk, Internal Release, Maybe the DRG Crit+ buff, Draconian Potion of Strength HQ, and it was executed at a time when Ravana takes increased damage.

It'd be like saying that WAR needs to take an HP nerf because I saw a picture where a WAR exceeded 45k HP by getting 50% echo, using a Draconian VIT HQ potion, and using Thrill of Battle. The circumstances have to align just right for it all to happen.

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Originally Posted by Dement

The ridiculously high amounts of damage that Fell Cleave has done are very limited and based on perfect conditions. Essentially the pic everyone is talking about of Fell Cleave doing 11k damage is on Ravana EX when the WAR had maim, Storm's Eye, Berserk, Internal Release, Maybe the DRG Crit+ buff, Draconian Potion of Strength HQ, and it was executed at a time when Ravana takes increased damage.

It'd be like saying that WAR needs to take an HP nerf because I saw a picture where a WAR exceeded 45k HP by getting 50% echo, using a Draconian VIT HQ potion, and using Thrill of Battle. The circumstances have to align just right for it all to happen.

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I see! Thanks for the information. I'd been wondering about it so I came to the forums to look around. :3

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Nerf based on what? We've now made paladins obsolete? :rolleyes:
Nobody planning to run paladin in Alexander because of OP warriors? :rolleyes:.

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Paladin will always be the ideal MT for the vast majority of content and raid groups in this game. Hallowed Ground (and the plethora of other cooldowns) basically guarantees that. It's the safest pick for the job.

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Originally Posted by Able

Paladin will always be the ideal MT for the vast majority of content and raid groups in this game.

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Theres a reason I put the "Roll eyes" emote.

All this talk about warriors being OP when if we were Paladins would be being dropped but they *aren't*.
In 2.0 when PLD had the clearest advantages over Warriors, Players were dropping their warriors for Pld until that 2.1 patch.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Theres a reason I put the "Roll eyes" emote.

All this talk about warriors being OP when if we were Paladins would be being dropped but they *aren't*.
In 2.0 when PLD had the clearest advantages over Warriors, Players were dropping their warriors for Pld until that 2.1 patch.

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Apologies. My tablet didn't render the emotes. But yeah, given the concept behind the job, I don't think SE will ever allow PLDs to be outperformed in the MT role, in a conventional party composition and play style, anyway. Kinda the same for WHM.

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Originally Posted by Able

Apologies. My tablet didn't render the emotes. But yeah, given the concept behind the job, I don't think SE will ever allow PLDs to be outperformed in the MT role, in a conventional party composition and play style, anyway. Kinda the same for WHM.

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This. Paladin lacks burst, mobility and any sort of aoe. Probably the most boring of the three to play--but they make up for it with fantastic mitigation and utility.

Need MT with my war :p

War is just as good and sometimes better at MT than a PLD.

PLD's are just safer in terms of progression content, that is why they will be favored by top rank guilds.
For the rest of us lowbies, every tank is viable and capable of MTing.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

This. Paladin lacks burst, mobility and any sort of aoe. Probably the most boring of the three to play...

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That simply means they have to scramble faster and work harder to make up for those shortcomings, which is not really the definition of "boring". "Challenging" would be a better term.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

That simply means they have to scramble faster and work harder to make up for those shortcomings, which is not really the definition of "boring". "Challenging" would be a better term.

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Eh, I've played all tanks and I'd say those aren't mutually exclusive. A job can be both challenging and boring. Not that I'm saying I find tanking with PLD particularly challenging. There's a reason it's the safest choice. In encounters that require very little movement you could fall asleep on your keyboard and still hold aggro and survive most attacks.

Which, when you think about it is a good choice in design, as you are almost certainly guaranteed to fall asleep on your keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

That simply means they have to scramble faster and work harder to make up for those shortcomings, which is not really the definition of "boring". "Challenging" would be a better term.

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There is little "challenge" in playing PLD by comparison to the other tanks. The reason why it's "boring" is because of how little you have to do as a Paladin. It does nothing unique that requires extra effort. Scrambling faster and working harder isn't going to make PLD have new off GCDs or buttons to press. If you're implying to optimize you should do that as every class, just PLD has little optimization that can be done by comparison.

Example AOE pull . .
Paladin:
- Gather all the mobs spam flash and riot blade then flash some more while popping your off GCDS

Warrior:
-Gather all the mobs in Defiance.
-Make sure they're all angled properly for overpower and raw intuition
-Screw it they move anyway this is why you have awareness
-Apply maim then back to overpower
-switch into deliverance when you have blood bath and zerk up and get your double decimates off

Dark Knight:
-Pull all the mobs
-AoE
- Pop Blood Price
- Make sure you properly DA your Abyssal and 250 cleave while constantly reapply salt while trying to make sure you have enough cds to pop it while grit is off if you can then reapply grit
- Watch dark side run out and cry while you try to siphon it back while spamming your aoes
- Meanwhile pop your sentinel / rampart, dark dance, and etc
-Keep using all your goddamn off GCDS and pray you don't run out of MP while you john madden.

I could go through Single target instance and single target boss but it's literally a joke by comparison. PLD became slightly more fun to play I'll give it that, since it has more rotations than just 1-2-3 now, but it still isn't nearly as intense as warrior, where the challenge is to make sure you properly have the stacks up for inner beast or you're dead. Or that of Dark Knight where you have to goddamn john madden your keyboard with all the buttons to press.

Keeping hate as classes other than PLD becomes "more difficult" for WAR and ESPECIALLY DRK. WAR has to keep up DoTs and debuffs while keeping up maim which doesn't generate enmity. DRK almost NEVER goes through its enmity combo, which is more likely why you can DA it for more hate. DRK needs to spam siphon strike for the MP and their highest potency combo doesn't touch anything enmity related so you have little incentive to do so. The ideal route is to live on the edge and if it gets close DA enmity combo again, otherwise you're not optimizing.

To add further insult to injury PLD's shield swipe does not interrupt their combo and can generate decent enmity and damage regardless of what combo they're going through so they always have options.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

There is little "challenge" in playing PLD by comparison to the other tanks.

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I was specifically referring to this comment (and that is why I quoted it and responded to it) :

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Originally Posted by Faytte

This. Paladin lacks burst, mobility and any sort of aoe. Probably the most boring of the three to play...

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When a Paladin finds himself in a situation where the above is required, obviously he has to work harder to achieve the same results that other classes might take for granted. And, again, that's not really the definition of "boring". "Challenging" would be a better term. I'm really not sure how else to put that.

I suspect we are focusing on different things here. I'm looking at a lack of options that require more effort from the player to achieve similar results as those classes that have more options. That, to me, is something I would label as more challenging gameplay. Where as you're likely looking at the number of cool abilities a class has (or lacks) to fire off and labeling that as fun (or boring).

Also...

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

Example AOE pull . .
Paladin:
- Gather all the mobs spam flash and riot blade then flash some more while popping your off GCDS

Warrior:
-Gather all the mobs in Defiance.
-Make sure they're all angled properly for overpower and raw intuition
-Screw it they move anyway this is why you have awareness
-Apply maim then back to overpower
-switch into deliverance when you have blood bath and zerk up and get your double decimates off

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..if that's all you do during your Paladin pulls, I'd argue that you're doing it wrong. Positioning is important for a Paladin as well (to mitigate damage as much as possible), and can require constant adjustments when telegraphs are being overlapped every few seconds. I'd also suggest any Paladin worth his salt is actively babysitting each target rather than sticking with one and relying on Flash and Circle of Scorn to hold their attention. Sure, you can get all lazy, put in the bare minimum, and rely on the healer to keep you up, but the same is true of all tanks.

If we wanted to, we could break your Paladin summary down into an absurd list of bulletpoints as well. And you could apply similar super-brief summaries to the other tanking classes too, but are choosing not to in the hopes of making a point.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

I could go through Single target instance and single target boss but it's literally a joke by comparison. PLD became slightly more fun to play I'll give it that, since it has more rotations than just 1-2-3 now, but it still isn't nearly as intense as warrior, where the challenge is to make sure you properly have the stacks up for inner beast or you're dead. Or that of Dark Knight where you have to goddamn john madden your keyboard with all the buttons to press.

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I'm sorry, but I just don't equate "pushing more buttons" with challenge or difficulty. That may be your definition, but it isn't mine. I come from a long line of MMOs that often throw more abilities and buttons at a class than is even remotely reasonable, and anything FFXIV offers pales in comparison.

Then again, people actually find many aspects of this game hard. I very much enjoy FFXIV (mostly due to the focus on story), but.. heh. Hard is not a word I would use to describe any of the combat content offered.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

To add further insult to injury PLD's shield swipe does not interrupt their combo and can generate decent enmity and damage regardless of what combo they're going through so they always have options.

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When Shield Swipe is flashing more than a christmas treee I use that instead of Rage as it maintains plenty of enmity with flash and use Royal authority instead and maintain goring blade dot. I always prepop Sheltron when running in to pull a boss as it guarantess a shield swipe to OGCD into my opening RoH combo.

Sheltron running, shield throw, (I sometimes throw aa Flash here also depending on party) Fight or Flight>Fast Blade>OGCD Shield swipe>savage blade>Circle of Scorn>RoH>Spirits within. Will give you a massive initial burst of Enmity to safely follow up with a goring blade combo.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Tank damage difference is not large at all. Theres what a 910 parse of Drk already?

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I like how in your DRK math you seem to assume you have infinite MP, as if you can DA Soul Eater every time no problem.

The 910 parse was done before they fixed the DA bug as well, which is a pretty hard hit since you can no longer stack things like Carve and Split/Dark Passenger with Soul Eaters. There were WARs parsing 980 already, the difference will only increase from here.

(Note I don't really mind if WAR have the best tank dps, but let's not be disingenuous about it)

I'm on the iffy side on how long those parses were, honestly. It's not that I don't believe that any of the tanks are capable of hitting that high (which I KNOW that they are), it's just I doubt that they could sustain those numbers. If anything, those parses were all probably 30 seconds to a minute at the most. Unless there's a 3 minute long video of someone parsing with that amount of sustained dps, then it's all bs. Burst is fine, but sustained matters more in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Agrieus

I'm on the iffy side on how long those parses were, honestly. It's not that I don't believe that any of the tanks are capable of hitting that high (which I KNOW that they are), it's just I doubt that they could sustain those numbers. If anything, those parses were all probably 30 seconds to a minute at the most. Unless there's a 3 minute long video of someone parsing with that amount of sustained dps, then it's all bs. Burst is fine, but sustained matters more in the long run.

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Like this? You could argue it's closer to 950 sustained since that was closer to what he was averaging before ending the video with a berserk, but that doesn't really change much.

There are several videos of DRK in that 910 range but I'm not going to bother searching for them because as I said, with the DA nerf they shouldn't be applicable anymore.

TANK DPS: 1.WAR
2.DRK
3.PLD
Damageminigation:1.PLD
2.DRK
3.WAR
Dps is out of question cuz everyone here should think the same.
The only proplem is that DRK isnt capable of being in spot 2. all the time atm.they should balance it fast.
I am WAR and put it on 3. compared with the others in damageminigation but that doesnt mean that it is week.war is this incridible at tankbusters.they only leak on all time minigation but with good healers this question isnt nessessary ;)
SE could buff the WAR even more but that would just result that the DRK will get no chance in progression and the PLD will have no chance at the end of a "gear season " ;)

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Originally Posted by Zephiroth

TANK DPS: 1.WAR
2.DRK
3.PLD
Damageminigation:1.PLD
2.DRK
3.WAR

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I 100% Agree.

As it stands DRK are possibly 2 on mitigation, but we have no anti-tank buster abilities, so with regard to that we could even be below a Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Daerthalus

we could even be below a Warrior.

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Currently, you are.