Healing potency buffs not working on Lustrate etc : Working as Intended?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3069262

Based on the latest hot fix:
An issue wherein the white mage action “Divine Seal” which affects magic only would also affect the ability “Assize”.

This pretty much confirms that Lustrates/Tetragammatron/Essential Dignity/Asylum will not have their potency increased by buffs, and is working as intended :(.

Now we can objectively say that Lustrate etc is worse on a WAR compared to DRK and PLD.

You make a valid point about the WAR, but I'm still more happy with the Lustrate we have now. I just hope they buff or completely change Dissipation because it seems pretty useless at the moment when it doesn't work with our big heals. A shame it's our level 60 ability too. :<

That's really bad... This would be quite a nerf to Warriors as Tanks. They should at least change Defiance then that it works with all these skills...

But on the other hand we have this: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-healing-buffs

I don't know what to make of these mixed signals.

No it doesn't. Assize does not have a heal potency number associated with it ("restores HP") - such as Lustrate does have now.

An ability/spell with a cure potency is different than a spell/ability that "restores HP".
Generally, only spells/abilities with Cure Potency are affected by healing buffs and debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

No it doesn't. Assize does not have a heal potency number associated with it ("restores HP") - such as Lustrate does have now.

An ability/spell with a cure potency is different than a spell/ability that "restores HP".
Generally, only spells/abilities with Cure Potency are affected by healing buffs and debuffs.

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Assize
Deals unaspected damage to all nearby enemies with a potency of 300.
Additional Effect: Restores own HP and the HP of nearby party members
Cure Potency: 300
Additional Effect: Restores 10% of own MP

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

Rawr.

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Slight correction to that statement of yours (I do hate being a smartass, but hey!).

http://i.imgur.com/JYpExam.png

And no, they weren't overnight changes to the tooltip. Cure Potency has been there for ages.

I still don't get if divine seal is not supposed to have an affect why cleric stance does. The idea behind the skill really should be that it heals for a set amount regardless of cleric stance. As it is you make a choice between damage and healing with only MP gain the same regardless and if that's the case why can't we use divine seal with it?

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Originally Posted by MXMoondoggie

I still don't get if divine seal is not supposed to have an affect why cleric stance does. The idea behind the skill really should be that it heals for a set amount regardless of cleric stance. As it is you make a choice between damage and healing with only MP gain the same regardless and if that's the case why can't we use divine seal with it?

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With cleric stance, you're literally switching your values of MND and INT. Healing magic and abilities for mages scale off of MND. When you pop cleric stance. Your 800+ MND takes the value of your 250 INT value and switches it.

Divine seal does not have an effect on base stat values, it just boosts healing magic potency by 30%.

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Originally Posted by MXMoondoggie

I still don't get if divine seal is not supposed to have an affect why cleric stance does. The idea behind the skill really should be that it heals for a set amount regardless of cleric stance. As it is you make a choice between damage and healing with only MP gain the same regardless and if that's the case why can't we use divine seal with it?

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Divine Seal and Cleric Stance are completely different things. Divine Seal improves your healing by 30%, cleric stance switches your mind and int stats. Lustrate and co are not affected by the healing % buffs (since they are marked as abilities, and those % skills affect spells), but they are still based of your mind stat. If they weren't they would always heal for the same amount, no matter what gear you wear.

Oh uups - I apologize :)

Discussed it with a WHM friend and we remembered it wrong. Thanks for the clarification!

well, its kind of ok to take heal buffs away for "abilities", but they need to at least scale with warrior defiance!!!
the way it is now is really unfair on healers with a warrior tank -.-

... or maybe its time to kick all WAR tanks (im not serious, but think about it)

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Originally Posted by deos

well, its kind of ok to take heal buffs away for "abilities", but they need to at least scale with warrior defiance!!!
the way it is now is really unfair on healers with a warrior tank -.-

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My thoughts exactly. I can live with abilities not being affected, since you can use them while silenced and they are not affected by lower healing either. But they must scale with a warrior's defiance.

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

My thoughts exactly. I can live with abilities not being affected, since you can use them while silenced and they are not affected by lower healing either. But they must scale with a warrior's defiance.

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Yeah, Warriors are now the hardest tank for SCH to heal, it's pretty annoying. :(

Rather embarrassing when a buffed Embrace crit can almost outdo our "big" heal.

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Originally Posted by TonberiScholar

Yeah, Warriors are now the hardest tank for SCH to heal, it's pretty annoying. :(

Rather embarrassing when a buffed Embrace crit can almost outdo our "big" heal.

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Now we're exaggerating a little :)

Lustrate still heals like a truck. At i171 with an i180 weapon it's hitting for ~3.8-3.9k, nearly 6k on crits.

At extremely high HP levels (but who runs a fully VIT-spec WAR?) you can still heal less than 25% of their HP, but it's not that bad.

Hmm, does Convalescence not affect those "healing abilities" as well now?
Seems like an overall nerf to healers AND tanks. -_-

(Speaking as a tank)

I was disappointed to learn we won't be able to buff our new toys but... I think the issues are a bit exaggerated here. It's still the GCD spells that will be doing the bulk of our healing, and the fancy new oGCDs are just extra (although very nice extras) on top of our main tools.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I was disappointed to learn we won't be able to buff our new toys but... I think the issues are a bit exaggerated here. It's still the GCD spells that will be doing the bulk of our healing, and the fancy new oGCDs are just extra (although very nice extras) on top of our main tools.

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My thoughts exactly. Besides, having the oGCDs be extremely powerful for healing non-tanks is a reasonable trade-off for having them be potentially less effective at healing the very highest HP tanks.

I'm p annoyed by this. Sure, they're oGCD and cost no mana, but I expect things that buff all my healing to actually buff all my healing. This is a silly distinction that shouldn't be put into place.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

I'm p annoyed by this. Sure, they're oGCD and cost no mana, but I expect things that buff all my healing to actually buff all my healing. This is a silly distinction that shouldn't be put into place.

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The balancing cost of that would be a weaker baseline. As is, Lustrate, Tetragrammaton, etc-- their potencies are quite high. Assize is a bit less, but when you consider it gives MP back for essentially using an equivalent to one of our highest cost spells...

Well, it looks like we can't have everything. So... I'd rather have the strong baseline.

If this is true is dissipation even worth using for anything but the most desperate situations. the main reason i would use it was for the Aether flow stacks and was out. in most situations its just hard to justify killing your fairy. especially since you then need to re-summon it using a large amount of mp and swift cast. i would rather get no % increase 3 temporary aether flow stacks that stack separate from the standard ones and pet auto re-summons after 30s (unused stacks disappear).

i would also prefer they give old lustrate back and just disable all healing during cleric stance if that's what they want. this new version seems messy and counter intuitive to learning players.

or hell lock cleric stance to out of combat activation only like the AST stances. this seems like the worst of all choices.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3069262

Based on the latest hot fix:
An issue wherein the white mage action “Divine Seal” which affects magic only would also affect the ability “Assize”.

This pretty much confirms that Lustrates/Tetragammatron/Essential Dignity/Asylum will not have their potency increased by buffs, and is working as intended :(.

Now we can objectively say that Lustrate etc is worse on a WAR compared to DRK and PLD.

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So basically the lustrate nerf was even bigger than originally thought and Dissipate is as bad of a skill as everyone thought in the first place. Thanks for nothing square.

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Originally Posted by CrimRaiOh

If this is true is dissipation even worth using for anything but the most desperate situations. the main reason i would use it was for the Aether flow stacks and was out. in most situations its just hard to justify killing your fairy. especially since you then need to re-summon it using a large amount of mp and swift cast. i would rather get no % increase 3 temporary aether flow stacks that stack separate from the standard ones and pet auto re-summons after 30s (unused stacks disappear).

i would also prefer they give old lustrate back and just disable all healing during cleric stance if that's what they want. this new version seems messy and counter intuitive to learning players.

or hell lock cleric stance to out of combat activation only like the AST stances. this seems like the worst of all choices.

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I doubt that the Lustrate change had anything to do with Cleric Stance (good SCHs don't rely that heavily on Lustrate); they just wanted to define a limit on how powerful it could become since it was set to scale with the target's maximum HP, and player HP will continue to increase dramatically in tandem with our character and item levels in future updates. It also means that you can no longer instantly fluff quest NPC allies who must be kept alive as a condition of the duty, and on whom Lustrate was absurdly effective since they had tens of thousands of HP.

Same reasoning behind Graniteskin getting removed from the game.

And yes, Dissipation is pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

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i seemed to remember reading some where yoshi p wanted healers to be more focused around healing and not dpsing. As one of the favorite uses for lustrate was healing while in cleric stance it seemed like this was an intentional move to make scholars not hands down the best dps healer. the only potential positives people were seeing in the change is now they could amp up lustrates with buffs.
right now i see buffed physicks hitting WARs as hard as lustrate.

the NPC part i can understand. it was too strong on them.
i really just want to be able to buff "ability" heals.

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Originally Posted by CrimRaiOh

i seemed to remember reading some where yoshi p wanted healers to be more focused around healing and not dpsing. As one of the favorite uses for lustrate was healing while in cleric stance it seemed like this was an intentional move to make scholars not hands down the best dps healer. the only potential positives people were seeing in the change is now they could amp up lustrates with buffs.
right now i see buffed physicks hitting WARs as hard as lustrate.

the NPC part i can understand. it was too strong on them.
i really just want to be able to buff "ability" heals.

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Even if you're using Eos' Fey Illumination and cast Physick on a Defiance-enabled WAR, you won't have quite the potency of Lustrate. With more CDs/buffs involved, yes, could exceed Lustrate's power, but only for a short time.

Making Lustrate a potency-based heal (incidentally affected by MND now), doesn't change anything for SCHs who are accustomed to DPSing in all kinds of content since most Aetherflow stacks were spent on Energy Drains and Banes, anyway, with maybe 1 stack held in reserve so that you could risk eeking out one more Ruin or refreshing one more DoT while the tank's HP became critical. The only change the Lustrate rework did for SCH DPS is to force us to click off CS before using it (and if you're going to click off CS to heal, you're probably just going to Physick/Adlo and pop back into CS, anyway).

What Yoshida said most recently was that bit about raid minimum clear DPS not being set with healer DPS as an expectation due to how it would boost the difficulty too high, but that they acknowledged that players leveraged healer DPS to help meet DPS checks, especially when below the minimum ilvl that the devs designed the raid around.

Intresting thing I ran into running leviathan ex. Lustrate and indomitibility proc the healing debuff same as before. A debuff that is supposed to only work on healing spells. Asked the whm in the party to try assize. It didnt trigger the debuff. Also emergency tactics triggers it twice. Now most likely this means nothing but it is an example of assize not reacting like the other ability heals.

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Originally Posted by CrimRaiOh

i seemed to remember reading some where yoshi p wanted healers to be more focused around healing and not dpsing. As one of the favorite uses for lustrate was healing while in cleric stance it seemed like this was an intentional move to make scholars not hands down the best dps healer

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The issue is they need to actually make fights consistently challenging and skill based to heal, and not so heavily scripted with you being able to easily predict exactly what heal you'll need and when. As it stands, there's a reason people have already solo healed the extremes.

Making damaging skills extremely expensive to cast along with slapping healers with the inability to consistently hit mobs is not the way to do it. It's lazy and just makes me not like healing as much because the alternative is twiddling my thumbs with nothing to do.

The issue with increased randomization in fight mechanics is that sheer luck becomes nearly as important as player skill. Fights are designed currently so that almost anyone can complete them if they attempt to learn; they don't have to rely on pure twitch + favorable RNG to succeed.

I'm not suggesting that some unpredictability can't make things fresh and fun, but it's a mighty fine line.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

The issue with increased randomization in fight mechanics is that sheer luck becomes nearly as important as player skill. Fights are designed currently so that almost anyone can complete them if they attempt to learn; they don't have to rely on pure twitch + favorable RNG to succeed.

I'm not suggesting that some unpredictability can't make things fresh and fun, but it's a mighty fine line.

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Not really. SE currently designs fights so that you only ever deal with one or two mechanics at once, but failing to do those mechanics properly will almost always result in something catastrophic. Most MMOs have many mechanics in tandem, but one mechanic being done improperly is just very bad, rather than a nearly guaranteed death/wipe. Because of this, they can make mechanics for healers to deal with healing-wise, rather than healers just playing the role of an extended health bar. It's why so many people struggle on the Vault final boss, it has multiple mechanics happening in tandem with semi-randomized damage. Many healers aren't used to this in FFXIV, and they simply can't handle it.

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Originally Posted by Zoralink

Not really. SE currently designs fights so that you only ever deal with one or two mechanics at once, but failing to do those mechanics properly will almost always result in something catastrophic. Most MMOs have many mechanics in tandem, but one mechanic being done improperly is just very bad, rather than a nearly guaranteed death/wipe. Because of this, they can make mechanics for healers to deal with healing-wise, rather than healers just playing the role of an extended health bar. It's why so many people struggle on the Vault final boss, it has multiple mechanics happening in tandem with semi-randomized damage. Many healers aren't used to this in FFXIV, and they simply can't handle it.

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There's nothing truly random about the Vault final boss: you know which mechanics are coming and when to expect them. Variables such as not knowing for sure which pair of players will get hit by chains are commonly implemented degrees of "randomness" already present in many encounters in the game.

The most random fight I can think of off the top of my head is Mog EX, and all you need is to be able to identify each mechanic and be ready to handle it once you identify that it is happening.

Boss fights in virtually all games come down to a flow chart with a certain number of branches. It's true that mechanics in FFXIV tend to be both highly scripted and extremely punishing, but they've come out and stated that this is their design choice to encourage (read: enforce) learning and to cut down failure due to random elements.

On the other hand, I think the recent fights with more environmental effects (e.g. tornadoes err'where in Bismarck EX and in Neverreap) are their attempt to increase the requirement for incidental healing so as to keep healers busier with actual healing.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

-long post purely about RNG-

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I was referring specifically to the combination of pseudo random mechanics along with multiple occurring simultaneously. That boss keps you mostly busy the entire time healing wise, compared to most boss fights that have massive periods of downtime.

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Originally Posted by Zoralink

I was referring specifically to the combination of pseudo random mechanics along with multiple occurring simultaneously. That boss keps you mostly busy the entire time healing wise, compared to most boss fights that have massive periods of downtime.

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Mileage may vary. I don't find that the Vault boss keeps me terribly busy unless the party is unfamiliar with the mechanics. Altar Pyre = heal it up; ambulatory statues = dodge; chains = break them.

To avoid further debate for its own sake, yes, I know what you are trying to get at.