Bard issue... dps needed for Bismarck EX?

Long story short, I finally get around to learn Bismarck EX last night and boy the dps check is quite rough on the snake part. I got a question what is the exactly dps needed? I didn't check my dps and one of the party member did. One of the monk is over 800, the other monk is around 750 and my dps as bard is around 685 and I use WM + EA for the shell and adds if there is time. We still come up short of dps and the pt fall apart afterward. I am using i180 weapon and a mix of 160, 170 and 180 stuff.

Never had issues with DPS as a BRD with both Ex fights.
It's a team effort, and BRD is in a shit spot right now, but not where it can't do passable dps.
Placing your buffs/burst at the right time is what matters outside of that it's a team effort.

Currently 48 Ravana Ex clears of which half were with double bard and even a few tripple bard.
And despite being behind in dps, being able to throw foe's and ballad are still valuable tools that do partially cover the lower dps.
Also turn off WM. Just do it. If you have the 2.0-2.5 brd rotation down to perfection, the WM ain't going to buff your dps at all.

If you'r struggling to kill the dragons in time you can always opt to use LB1 on them too.

Is Ravana EX dps check not as strict as Bismarck? Because one time in pf we have 2 bard in pt and we were doing no where enough damage. Another common issue even when there is only 1 bard in pt if it fail dsp check. They will always kick the lowest dps in pt and in this case, it will always be Bard or Mech. Unless the pt bring 2 caster into the fight foe won;t have as much of an impact with the dps. What is your bard tactic for bismarck ex? For the moment, I only use WM+ Barrage + Ea when breaking the caprase on Bismarck and on the two add when EA + barrage line up, other than that I turn off WM. There are sizeable amount of dodge needed in Bismarck so wm is not really the best choice. I beat final coil before the echo come in so I have a decent 2.5 bard rotation.

Both EX fights are not extremely strict on dps, they do have dps checks but they are not packed on top of each other.
What this means is, that everyone should be able to place their highest burst during those checks on the target where the dmg needs to go to.

On Bismark you want everyone to pop all their cooldowns when you go on his back for the first time and dps him hard (make sure people are actually on top of his back otherwise that attacks don't count).
Then once the dragons come out those will last long enough for everyone to have most of their buffs be up and able to be used before the dragons actually have to be dead.
These are the only two real dps checks on Bismark, obviously you ll still need to be smart about dpsing the birdmen adds down in a timely matter and only getting on Bismarks back when you don't have the debuff anymore and have cooldowns up.

Ravana has the same kind of dps checks, only time the check is real is during the butterflies if you can kill all the butterflies in time, the rest of the fight is not as tight on enforcing high dps bursts.

As for WM, if you had a good pre 3.0 rotation, there's not a moment during those fights when WM is needed and most likely not a moment where it is actually a dps gain over a good old rotation.

I've been selling Bismarck as a Bard and our group for Ravana sell is got 2 Bards. DPS is perfectly fine, I'm usually 100 points behind the Monk/Black Mage, but I'm still useful and can do the maximum DPS for the class.

So, no issues at all. I just find boring the new skills and I NEVER use any of them except Sidewinder.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

As for WM, if you had a good pre 3.0 rotation, there's not a moment during those fights when WM is needed and most likely not a moment where it is actually a dps gain over a good old rotation.

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I have to disagree on it. Even if i follow my pre 3.0 rotation, it will still be a dps loss from before because of the barrage change. And i cannot think of a stronger attack with a fully buff barrage+ EA atm, which would be perfect to kill the carpase . I do turn off WM rigth after it through. I am wondering through, should i turn off wm right after EA hit or after Bismarck throw me back to the island.

And I mean if the phrase by the other person is correct, my dps at 685 is close to the 100 less dps compare to monk. Althrought there was something strange. On my first semi leaning pt I was in a pt with smn and blm and naturally i use foe + bv during the 2 adds and we manage to push the dps no problem even through it was my first time in the fight, the only issue that we had was the weather shift. My future fight end up worse even with me had a better understanding of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

I have to disagree on it. Even if i follow my pre 3.0 rotation, it will still be a dps loss from before because of the barrage change. And i cannot think of a stronger attack with a fully buff barrage+ EA atm, which would be perfect to kill the carpase . I do turn off WM rigth after it through. I am wondering through, should i turn off wm right after EA hit or after Bismarck throw me back to the island.

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You can disagree on that part with me, doesn't really matter when what you were saying is that the dragons didn't go down in time.
Meaning whatever you guys were doing on Bishmarks back was enough one way or the other.

I personally peak around the same with old opener or with WM opener on a dummy, but my rotation flows much smoother without WM, resulting in better dps in the long run and that's why I rather leave it off.
Also the old rotation doesn't get messed up by whatever little bit of movement that might have cancelled a cast or anything where the WM does. (Tornado/Puddle on Bismark)

As for when to turn off WM on his back, if you'r making that part of the dps check, then it doesn't really matter we already disagreed on WM usage and both of us are making that part of the dps check.

I tried Bismarck EX last night too and there was this dragoon with a very condescending attitude who kept went on about "there's no way we will pass the dps check". My party has 2 bards and 1 MCH. Needless to say, we wiped.

Is it safe to say that I do not have to use WM in EX fights? Because I'm really uncomfortable with the cast time. I felt that I lose more dps than without WM.

Nope, I don't use WM in both EX after the opener.

Bismarck isn't that bad but extended WM in Ravana EX is a little silly since you have to deal with the "all knowing" stances very frequently.

For Bismarck EX, if you party isn't able to break the back one-shot for the first one by now then it is going to be worrying later.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Nope, I don't use WM in both EX after the opener.

Bismarck isn't that bad but extended WM in Ravana EX is a little silly since you have to deal with the "all knowing" stances very frequently.

For Bismarck EX, if you party isn't able to break the back one-shot for the first one by now then it is going to be worrying later.

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Thanks! Now I can do EX with a peace of mine :) You're really a great contributor to the Bard society!

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

I tried Bismarck EX last night too and there was this dragoon with a very condescending attitude who kept went on about "there's no way we will pass the dps check". My party has 2 bards and 1 MCH. Needless to say, we wiped.

Is it safe to say that I do not have to use WM in EX fights? Because I'm really uncomfortable with the cast time. I felt that I lose more dps than without WM.

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Condescending? Maybe but it is not far from the truth. Well dps check would be very tough with just a Bard and mch on a progressing party. .

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

Condescending? Maybe but it is not far from the truth. Well dps check would be very tough with just a Bard and mch on a progressing party. .

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It may not be far from truth but you don't have to be condescending about it. Why? There is a need to act high and mighty just because you ain't a BRD or MCH? Superiority complex eh?

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

It may not be far from truth but you don't have to be condescending about it. Why? There is a need to act high and mighty just because you ain't a BRD or MCH? Superiority complex eh?

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I am in the same boat too trying to clear Bismarck as Bard but it is time for us to admit that having more than 1 bard or mch in the progression party is a waste of time for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

Well dps check would be very tough with just a Bard and mch on a progressing party. .

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On primal EX that can be done 7 man for carry sales the very same week it was downed? On Bismark EX where people cleared it with a mix of IL170 and thsoe IL142/146 pieces?

If people wants to be condescending and think that with a BRD/MCH on a progressing party and I'll probably be the real condescending person and tell them to git gud, because it certainly can be done. Just whether you are capable or not.

You can make a party of 4 MNK/NIN but if these 4 people are kek then it's all moot.

I am assuming the selling party require some sort of dps from the buyer as well? Because I do not see how it is possible to kill those 2 add on time with just 3 dps, meaning part of the times where only 1 dps is on adds due to the green blue debuff.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

I am assuming the selling party require some sort of dps from the buyer as well? Because I do not see how it is possible to kill those 2 add on time with just 3 dps, meaning part of the times where only 1 dps is on adds due to the green blue debuff.

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Bismarck Ex Solo Healable.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

I am assuming the selling party require some sort of dps from the buyer as well? Because I do not see how it is possible to kill those 2 add on time with just 3 dps, meaning part of the times where only 1 dps is on adds due to the green blue debuff.

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Why not 3 DPS? Carry sales usually want the customer to stay out in case he/she messes up with mechanics.

When most people thinks that it is impossible, there will always be groups with the skill and will to think that it is possible.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Bismarck Ex Solo Healable.

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On a side note, Ravana EX solo tank-able.

Well, during the blue and green snake portion with the debuff. I do not believe it is possible to down a snake with 1 dps on it.

Actually i got a question. You said there are primal selling team with 2 bard/mch? What are their parse? I am curious honestly.

you shouldnt have a problem if youre pulling 685 as long as everyone is pulling their own weight including the healers and tanks

My group sells Bismarck with WAR/DK tanking, SCH/WHM healing and MNK/BLM/BRD doing dps. It's easier when the DK switch to WAR as well because of the DPS, but we do it pretty safe like this without relying on luck or anything like that. It just sucks to sell to another tank because of the debuff, but other than that, all good.

For Ravana it's WAR tanking, SCH/WHM healing, MNK/BLM/BRD/BRD doing dps. We do it in like 8:30 or 9:00 minutes. Faster and easier than Bismarck.

DPS for my BRD in Ravana is around 660 (without foods or potions, no need) and Bismarck depends, but it's over 600.

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Originally Posted by peekashu

DPS is perfectly fine, I'm usually 100 points behind the Monk/Black Mage, but I'm still useful and can do the maximum DPS for the class.

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Hey could you provide any numbers (if parse reset is 30 seconds or near) our bard is a little bit frustrated because his DPS is like 250 behind melees :/

EDIT: ok nvm, you did already, my bad :P

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

Actually i got a question. You said there are primal selling team with 2 bard/mch? What are their parse? I am curious honestly.

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You've probably mixed up 2 things I've mentioned - that 2 bard/mch in a normal party of 8 is not an issue for both EX, and that 7 man carries for both EX are possible.

Above poster "peekashu" further confirms that 3 DPS can be done on Bismarck EX carries. It's just how good your group are.

Last night my group was doing Ravana EX where half the group has cleared, while the half hasn't so it was about getting the half their clears and farm it there after. The group have 2 MCH inside (I was one of the MCH) and again, DPS wasn't an issue. There was once run where I bugged out for one entire Liberation phase - boss totally disappeared from my screen and untargetable but all my other teammates are still attacking it. I stood there for at least 30s doing absolutely nothing but it was still downed nonetheless.

Honestly, I think 4 MCH/BRD Ravana/Bismarck EX can be done too.

Not sure if someone said this as I didnt read back through the entire thread but if your having issues with DPS as a bard on the new primals, dont use WM, you still get Sidewinder anyways! Make sure to use the dots on multiple targets, etc. you'll be fine.

Sounds like a bad group really. Snakes are no issue. just requires everyone have a decent grasp of their rotation which isn't the easiest thing to come by possibly.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

Unless the pt bring 2 caster into the fight foe won;t have as much of an impact with the dps.

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Um... not to nitpick but here is a list of all classes that Foe's Requiem benefits:

Ninja
Astrologian
White Mage - Conjurer
Scholar - Arcanist
Summoner - Arcanist
Black Mage - Thaumaturge

Most of the Ninjutsu attacks with the exception of the Shuriken one, are magical in origin.

I am not sure, but I think Dark Knight might also be affected by Foe's Requiem.

So long as you bring 2 Healers your Foe's Requiem will be useful to the Party to some extent. Adding to that is Mage's Ballad which is also exceedingly useful when you have a White Mage or heck even a Dark Knight in your party.

Bard is still a useful class, even if it's DPS is sub par at the moment as it enhances the capabilities of the rest of the party significantly.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

I tried Bismarck EX last night too and there was this dragoon with a very condescending attitude who kept went on about "there's no way we will pass the dps check". My party has 2 bards and 1 MCH. Needless to say, we wiped.

Is it safe to say that I do not have to use WM in EX fights? Because I'm really uncomfortable with the cast time. I felt that I lose more dps than without WM.

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In my experience WM can be a boost in DPS but it's very difficult to do well. So if you're not comfortable with using it yet, you're probably better off not using it for anything but your opener (and drop it right after your barrage+EA)

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Originally Posted by burchdc

In my experience WM can be a boost in DPS but it's very difficult to do well. So if you're not comfortable with using it yet, you're probably better off not using it for anything but your opener (and drop it right after your barrage+EA)

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Nope. After Barrage-EA you should use IJ to refresh your DoTs while your buffs are still up

Yes you are clipping your DoTs but you are getting a fresh set of 18s of buff DoTs, and saving 1 GCD, overall it is a gain.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Nope. After Barrage-EA you should use IJ to refresh your DoTs while your buffs are still up

Yes you are clipping your DoTs but you are getting a fresh set of 18s of buff DoTs, and saving 1 GCD, overall it is a gain.

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I suddenly remembered what it's like when you used to make us wait 5 minutes before a pull for your pots to come off CD ;(((((((((

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Originally Posted by Scholar-

I suddenly remembered what it's like when you used to make us wait 5 minutes before a pull for your pots to come off CD ;(((((((((

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That was so random bruh D:

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

That was so random bruh D:

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Sory bruh but u did make every1 wait soo long for ur next to nothing dps increase on ur parser lol - n bruh it's coz ur raving on about min/maxing

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Originally Posted by Scholar-

Sory bruh but u did make every1 wait soo long for ur next to nothing dps increase on ur parser lol - n bruh it's coz ur raving on about min/maxing

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lel

min/max is srs biz

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

lel

min/max is srs biz

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Ded srs bruh

My experience is really that the Bismark EX DPS check is NOT as tight as people say. I had two bards in my group when practicing the other night, both were doing about 550-600 and DPS was the least of our problems. Got chitin down with only two stacks on most of us several times. At this point none of them are using WM though because it really doesn't seem to add anything in such short phases and in p2 there's too much movement for it to help.

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Originally Posted by seekified

My experience is really that the Bismark EX DPS check is NOT as tight as people say. I had two bards in my group when practicing the other night, both were doing about 550-600 and DPS was the least of our problems. Got chitin down with only two stacks on most of us several times. At this point none of them are using WM though because it really doesn't seem to add anything in such short phases and in p2 there's too much movement for it to help.

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We did Ravana EX last night with whatever job combi because we wanted to see the various job's LB3. There's this run we had PLD-PLD-WAR-DRK-BRD-MCH-WHM-SCH and we were half fooling around and we still cleared lol.

I just want to say, I have noticed people saying you don't need to use WM for Bismark. However, they obviously had a good party. If yours is lacking DPS then switching to WM for the back phase is a good idea for the sidewinder and barrage+EA combo, I turn it off right after, but the DPS increase for that particular burst is SUBSTANTIAL. Especially if you crit sidewinder.

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Originally Posted by AvisAdvenna

I just want to say, I have noticed people saying you don't need to use WM for Bismark. However, they obviously had a good party. If yours is lacking DPS then switching to WM for the back phase is a good idea for the sidewinder and barrage+EA combo, I turn it off right after, but the DPS increase for that particular burst is SUBSTANTIAL. Especially if you crit sidewinder.

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I use WM all the way until the carapace is dead, after that it's off for the rest of the fight where there is simply too much movement to justify keeping WM up.

how do you check ur dps?

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Originally Posted by Umbrax

Hey could you provide any numbers (if parse reset is 30 seconds or near) our bard is a little bit frustrated because his DPS is like 250 behind melees :/

EDIT: ok nvm, you did already, my bad :P

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It should be. Hes a bard, not a melee.