Dark Knight a more moderate Discussion and Suggestion Thread

While there are already like 4-5 Threads open i make another one because there are some Points that i can't stand in the others.

- Dreamy Suggestions
- Misinformation
- Use of Skills that are nearly Useless

Before you start like "lolol no bismarck/ravana ex skill you don't know sheet" remember that I don't need these Kills for figuring out that there is something really wrong with our new Tanking Job.

The Darkknight has some serious Issues that make im less attractive as a Tank than WAR/PDL. The biggest Impression i have is that the Developers didn't have any good Ideas at the End so they just added something so that we have the same amount of Skills like the others. And i feel a bit squishy =/ Precise Points are...

- Skill Bloath
- Useless Skills
- Skills that are just here because hey why not more Skills?
- Mana Costs

The Skills that are the most serious Issue are in my eyes:

- Dark Passenger
- Carve and Spit
- Abyssal Drain
- Dark Dance
- Living Death
- Salted Earth
- Reprisal

this looks a bit ridiculous but i will explain why i think these skills bring a serious problem for us.

First is the obivious Skill Bloath we get with all these Skills. Second is some are way to overpriced in the Mana Cost Section for their use.

Dark Passenger

Potency: 120 with Dark Arts 250 brings a Blind Debuff. Straight Line.

The biggest Problem i have with this Skill is his Blind. Bosses in Heavensward are all immun to Blind so its a wasted effect. It costs 2652 Mana on Level 60. A "fresh" Lvl 60 Dark Knight has a Manapool of 6930.

A 250 Potency skill costing like 25% of our Mana not including the continous Drain from Dark Side is just insane.

I would never use this Skill on Trash Mobs too because a) it's bad for Blood Price b) it's a Straight Line you will never hit everything until you run a bit away which costs some good Chunk of Life.

Suggestions:

Lower the Mana Costs. Give it a real Useful Effect.

Carve and Spit

And here we have a Skill thats just here, well....why not right? Carve and Spit has a 60 Sec Cooldown with a Potency of 450 when buffed up with Dark Arts and a laughable Potency of 100 without it. It regenerates exactly the same amount of Mana like Siphon Strike does (tested on Dummy).

Why would i use that skill when a beefed up Souleater has only 50 Potency Less and even heals me for around 700-900? It hits around 1kish while Warriors have Fel Cleave which hits around 1500 or even 3kish with a Crit. And Warriors can stancedance this Fel Cleave around all 20-25 Seconds, while we are stuck with a 450 Potency Skill with a Cooldown of a whole damn Minute.

Suggestions:

- Reduce the Cooldown to 30 Seconds
- add 250-300 Potency

Abyssal Drain

This is a short one. You pay 2740 Mana for a lousy Aoe Dmg Heal that does like 250-300 Heal per Mob. Thats around 1K from 3-4 Mobs. They hit you that Hard with 2 autoattacks...wasted Mana in my Eyes.

Suggestions:

- Lower the Mana Costs
- Make it Heal more....

Dark Dance

Dark Dance gives us a 30% CHANCE for Parrying. Alone that is laughable. Second we can't parry Boss Hits and we can't Evade them too. So this Skill has only its uses against trash where i wouldn't use it Beefed up because it would hurt the Mana Regeneration from Blood Price.

Suggestion:

- Total Rework

Living Death

Absolute Nightmare for the Healers. Nothing to say here. Needs a complete Redo too.

Salted Earth

While i quite like this skill it falls in the category "skill bloath". They could easily added a dot to unleash that ticks for the same amount at the same time.

Suggestions:

- Add a Debuffing Effect
- Raise the Cooldown to X Seconds because of said debuff effect

Reprisal

Thats a easy one, 30 Seconds cooldown, only works when we parried. Gives the same Debuff like the Warrior has.

Suggestions:

- Lower Cooldown to 20 Seconds (Duration time)
- Remove Parry Restriction

There was really no need for another DRK suggestion thread, no matter your feelings on the suggestions of others in those threads.

If you feel that some of the suggestions in the other threads are too much, state that in those threads, provide the reasons why they are too much and then provide an alternative that you feel is more balanced.

We should be attempting to consolidate the drk suggestion and feedback threads, not make a new one every time someone comes up with an idea.
I truly hope the forum moderators merge the threads or create an official DRK feedback/suggestion thread so they can be in one spot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

There was really no need for another DRK suggestion thread, no matter your feelings on the suggestions of others in those threads.

If you feel that some of the suggestions in the other threads are too much, state that in those threads, provide the reasons why they are too much and then provide an alternative that you feel is more balanced.

We should be attempting to consolidate the drk suggestion and feedback threads, not make a new one every time someone comes up with an idea.
I truly hope the forum moderators merge the threads or create an official DRK feedback/suggestion thread so they can be in one spot.

---

Actually i agree with you but my problem is that the discussion derailed some time ago =/

Many things wrong in your post. Split and carve base potency is 300 not 100(its three attacks at that potency) and gives a lot of mana back. It's damn good for a class with many other off gcd attacks. Secondly under dark dance you absolutely can parry boss attacks. I parried flattens all day in t13. The only thing you can parry are spells like ahk morn and drk have the best mitigation to those with dark mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Many things wrong in your post. Split and carve base potency is 300 not 100(its three attacks at that potency) and gives a lot of mana back.

---

I'm sad to say that this is false. It's a Tool Tip error or the Weapon Skill is glitched.

Unbuffed C&S deals a single, 1-hit 100 potency attack. It is easy to test on a target dummy. Try it out:

>

It is possible there is a mechanical error of the WS itself instead of being a translation error in the Tool Tip. Some numbers of note:

C&S gives the same amount of MP as a single combo'd Syphon (not a similar amount, identical). 884.

( 2 Syphons ) or ( 1 Syphon and 1 unbuffed C&S ) amount to the exact MP cost of Dark Arts. At 60, Syphon/C&S return 884 MP. Dark Arts cost us 1768 MP.

What's 884 * 2 ?

Blood Weapon returns 238 MP for every physical attack delivered. This includes Auto Attacks.

C&S - while under Blood Weapon - returns a single 238 MP from Blood Weapon, not three.

If there is an error in the Weapon Skill itself, and Carve & Split is suppose to register as three separate attacks, then:

Blood Weapon should be granting 238 MP three times, the Damage inflicted via C&S should be 3 times higher than Unleashed, and C&S's MP return should be equal to 3 Syphons, not just 1.

I hope it's a glitch, because if so, that means unbuffed C&S should reward 2652 MP instead of just 884. ( 884 * 3 )

The if/or situation of C&S -- choosing between a Dark Arts buff granting 450 potency, or vanilla 100 potency & a single Syphon's worth of MP -- is laughable. You're sacrificing 350 potency for the semi-equivalent of 1 stack of Wrath/Abandon. A complete joke. 350 potency is practically a DA buffed Souleater, and you've passed on that potency opportunity to regain only half of it's cost.

Now, if a vanilla Carve and Split granted 2652 MP instead of 884, that changes the situation. Players are given the choice of buffing C&S to use as a Damage WS, OR instead they can leave it vanilla and use it as a pseudo Infuriate with a 60 second recast.

Oh yea, Infuriate has a 60 second cool down too.

Quite a coincidence, it's possible the Weapon Skill is glitched.

Note: if it is glitched, I doubt a fix will increase the Dark Arts buff potency over 450. If it's three attacks at 450 potency each then that is a shocking 1350 potency overall.

More likely that C&S will have three attacks amounting to 100 potency overall (33 each), and when enhanced with Dark Arts each attack is increased to 150 potency (450 overall).

(While talking MP cost, how expensive is Dark Passenger? A: 884 MP. Dark Passenger is equal to one Syphon or Unbuffed C&S)

Dark Dance increases parry by 20%, and almost all (maybe all, not completly sure) physical attacks can be parried. Magic attacks can never be parried, but DRK's seem to already be the best for handling those.

Currently still leveling mine so not much else to comment on aside from that.

Edit: Just got the trait that increases the parry to 30%, wasn't paying enough attention. Still not as bad as you make it out to be

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hypie

Before you start like "lolol no bismarck/ravana ex skill you don't know sheet" remember that I don't need these Kills for figuring out that there is something really wrong with our new Tanking Job.

---

Sorry, this is a bit off topic, but since you brought this up it got me curious: have any DRKs out there stepped inside Bismarck/Ravana EX? If so, thoughts on how DRK performed in those?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualblade

Dark Dance increases parry by 20%, and almost all (maybe all, not completly sure) physical attacks can be parried. Magic attacks can never be parried, but DRK's seem to already be the best for handling those.

Currently still leveling mine so not much else to comment on aside from that.

---

It's 30%, and that's only parry rate. 30% extra chance to mitigate 20% of physical damage on a hit. More often than not I see myself not parrying even with Dark Dance up. It's dodge when under Dark Arts is what is 20%. It's just not a reliable cooldown at all, worse than Rampart for most cases. It only really shines when you Dark Arts it, after having Dark Arts'd a Passenger on a group of mobs. The dodge + the blind makes you crazy evasive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Sorry, this is a bit off topic, but since you brought this up it got me curious: have any DRKs out there stepped inside Bismarck/Ravana EX? If so, thoughts on how DRK performed in those?

---

I have Bismarck EX down, and am working on Ravanas last phase. Drk definitely gets hit a HELL of a lot harder in these places, but that's more often than not due to not having a reliable CD when you need it after having already used the only 2 you have, that are actually reliable.

In Bismarck's case, it's much easier due to the two snakes I believe doing magic damage. After that however, if you get stuck with the two physical adds each transition, you're going to take a pounding. But it's stil completely possible, not all that hard even if you know what you're doing and the healer can keep you going. You will have a harder time than a War or a Pally however.

There is no tank buster, so it's easily manageable by a Drk.

As for Ravana, it's all physical, so this is where Drk kind of gets boned. A Paladin, and even a good Warrior can solo tank the fight, eating the cleaves that are suppose to be split between 2 tanks on their own. A Drk however has a harder time doing that due to only really having 2 cd's to rely on. If that cleave hits you unmitigated, it can easily pop 14k of your HP instantly. That going out with the rest of the damage just becomes very hard to manage. I'm sure it's possible, and I'm sure some Drk somewhere is going to learn the fight well enough to learn exactly what they can do when, but as it is now, a Drk has a much, much harder time solo tanking it.

For double tanking it, it's possible, you still get hit like a truck for the cleaves even split, but not enough to be life threatening. (Got hit for 9k by a cleave, out of my 15k HP)

You don't exactly bring much to this fight is the problem as well though. So not only do you have it harder than both other tanks, both other tanks are more often than not, a much, much better option to take simply because of their utility in helping the group as a whole. Int down doesn't do anything for that fight, and Reprisal isn't a reliable debuff. Hell you wont even be able to have it going unless you parry a cleave maybe.

There isn't a single tank buster in this fight either though, just a crap ton of damage everywhere, hence why the utility a Pld and a War bring trumps what a Drk brings.

I would hardly call your OP "moderate". It's pretty extreme.

The only statements/suggestion I really agree with is Reprisal, Dark Dance to a lesser extent.

With Reprisal, they should just make it operate like Shield swipe, meaning on the GCD and procs any time you parry.

With Dark Dance, it needs to be a bit more potent. +30% Parry rate and 20% Evasion when Dark Arts is pathetic, definitely not a good cool down. Should change it to a "Darkness Shield" that absorbs X amount of damage (some percentage of HP/MP probably) and when Dark Arts is used with it, it generates "Dread Spikes" that reflect all or a portion of the damage back at the attacker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Sorry, this is a bit off topic, but since you brought this up it got me curious: have any DRKs out there stepped inside Bismarck/Ravana EX? If so, thoughts on how DRK performed in those?

---

I went in and did Bismarck, had no problem to cover all of the hard hitting spells with cooldowns and didn't really feel squishy. Asked the healers and they said it was like healing a warrior or paladin.
The only real problem with dark knight tanks is when the tank busters come quicker than your spells come off cooldown as you only have two( three if it's magical ) cooldowns that have a somewhat long cooldown, this doesn't happen during Bismarck and supposedly not during Ravana, might be a problem in alexander

@Xenosan

I really hope that you are correct and that Carve and Split is bugged similar to how you said because I've been thinking for a little while that DRK really needs something that functions like Infuriate.

Thats pretty much Blood price, albeit when dealing with trash pulls.

^
Not really.
Pretty much it boils down to Blood Price is your MT in Grit MP regen, Blood Sword is your OT out of Grit MP regen. There is of course some level of flexibility but it is pretty obvious that is their design. Blood Price is just one of the base ways to regain MP, not something extra like Infuriate is, it just happens to shine in such a situation.

Yes, you gain lots of MP back from Blood Price while getting hit by lots of mobs in trash pulls but that does not help with boss fights and does not function like Infuriate which essentially is a one button "I get to do a special move now" ability on a mediumish length cooldown timer. That is what I was saying would be nice to have because it provides a more similar, yet still different, equivalency between WAR and DRK when it comes to mechanics since those function the most similar of the tanks. WAR being a build up resource (stacks) tank and DRK being a burn through resource (MP) tank.

DA-Dark passenger, DA - Dark dance, 5s between them but I throw up blood price and I'll already be building back up for my next DA.

On the flip...at the start of a battle I can pop infuriate as a warrior to get Unchained/Steel Cyclone/Fell Cleave/ Unchained/ Decimate immediately. Granted all my combos build up my resource, while Drk's enmity combo does not replenish mana, however infuriate also has a 50% longer CD then Blood Price.

Drk has more gradual expenditure and build up. War can burst due to infuriate/berserk/raw intuition/Vengeance to get our resource up faster. If theres any actual large difference its that Drks DA expenditure isn't really as potent defensively as Inner Beast except when talking about a Dark Mind on a magic dmg specific situation.

Take the parry requirement off reprisal and make it off a GCD skill and adjust living dead that's all DRK really needs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FinalWolf

Take the parry requirement off reprisal and make it off a GCD skill and adjust living dead that's all DRK really needs

---

Pretty much exactly what should happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

With Reprisal, they should just make it operate like Shield swipe, meaning on the GCD and procs any time you parry.

With Dark Dance, it needs to be a bit more potent. +30% Parry rate and 20% Evasion when Dark Arts is pathetic, definitely not a good cool down. Should change it to a "Darkness Shield" that absorbs X amount of damage (some percentage of HP/MP probably) and when Dark Arts is used with it, it generates "Dread Spikes" that reflect all or a portion of the damage back at the attacker.

---

Shield swipe is on gcd and is handy but not always the best to use. Also hard to compare as sheild swipe is the paladins only tp management and many times fewer ogcds. If it worked like shield swipe it need to cost tp, take a gcd and likely have a worse effect than current. Shield swipe however is one of the we nifty things paladins get and you already reset low blow on parry. I doubt you would get two parry resets without nerfs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hundred

Pretty much exactly what should happen.

---

If you also removed the damage, sure.

Misread. Thing is you have three combos. I doubt your getting a fourth

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Falgern

I went in and did Bismarck, had no problem to cover all of the hard hitting spells with cooldowns and didn't really feel squishy. Asked the healers and they said it was like healing a warrior or paladin.
The only real problem with dark knight tanks is when the tank busters come quicker than your spells come off cooldown as you only have two( three if it's magical ) cooldowns that have a somewhat long cooldown, this doesn't happen during Bismarck and supposedly not during Ravana, might be a problem in alexander

---

Why does everyone keep saying this? The DRK has four mitigation skills. Shadowskin, Shadow Wall, Dark Mind, and Living Dead. If you have physical busters on a 1 minute rotation, you can tank them all with a cooldown for 7 different busters. 0m Shadowskin -> 1m Shadow Wall -> 2m Shadow Skin -> 3m Living Dead -> 4m Shadow Skin -> 5m Shadow Wall -> 6m Shadowskin. As long as it's on about a 1 minute cycle (absolute minimum of 45 and change seconds), the class has some options, such as with Bahamut. The problem is when you are trying to go after Twintania or T13's Storm that have 30-40s busters.

Living Dead should be treated like Holmgang is: A cooldown for busters, as that is what it is best at. That rotation is also capable of getting you going down to a very uncomfortable 45 second buster rotation, which should be adequate for the purposes of Bahamut but, again, not Twintania. If you time it well, you can have the -10% damage dealt debuff on the target for every Shadowskin buster as well thanks to Dark Dance, though that would take a lot of skill to reliably pull off (or at least a predictable rotation). But the nonsense that the DRK only has 2 physical mitigations really needs to stop.

The problem is that that is a very strict rotation to manage, and 7 busters isn't necessarily going to be enough for every fight moving forward, as it definitely isn't enough for older fights like Twin. But, with a sufficiently long buster rotation and using all of your cooldowns, it is possible, it just is very uncomfortable compared to the Paladin and Warrior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Shield swipe is on gcd and is handy but not always the best to use. Also hard to compare as sheild swipe is the paladins only tp management and many times fewer ogcds. If it worked like shield swipe it need to cost tp, take a gcd and likely have a worse effect than current. Shield swipe however is one of the we nifty things paladins get and you already reset low blow on parry. I doubt you would get two parry resets without nerfs.

---

There's no reason why. It's essentially the same mechanic. PLDs block, they trigger Shield Swipe, it does damage and pacification. Reprisal would be the same in this suggestion. DRK parries, triggers Reprisal, it does damage and -10% damage debuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

There's no reason why. It's essentially the same mechanic. PLDs block, they trigger Shield Swipe, it does damage and pacification. Reprisal would be the same in this suggestion. DRK parries, triggers Reprisal, it does damage and -10% damage debuff.

---

Pacification gets ignored by a lot of crap, Reprisal doesn't. They should just remove the parry requirement. Gives it more reliable MT and OT contribution.


1. Take off the parry requirement on Reprisal
2. Why not make the low blows trait apply to both Parrys and Evades.
3. Why not just have the Unmend trait always make it so your next Unleash after unmend costs 30% less mana...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

I would hardly call your OP "moderate". It's pretty extreme.

---

Okay lets change the words to "more realistic" the other Threads are full of wishful thinking, making Suggestion that are completely over the top making the DRK a god like being or require a indepth overhaul of the whole job which will not happen right after Release of Said job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xenosan

I'm sad to say that this is false. It's a Tool Tip error or the Weapon Skill is glitched.

Unbuffed C&S deals a single, 1-hit 100 potency attack. It is easy to test on a target dummy.

---

After testing on the dummy i'm prett much sure that skill is bugged/glitched. It's a single hit instead of a 3 way and yeah numbers are low.

No, it's not bugged, just poorly designed and with a terrible tooltip. This time around, it seems like the writers tried to add a bit of flowery language to the tooltips (I've noticed this across several jobs, this is not just our own problem), which in the end leaves a lot of those tooltips being simply terrible for actually conveying the important information.

Carve and Spit offers either a 100 potency oGCD attack that regens a small amount of MP while out of dark arts, or a 450 potency oGCD attack with no extra effects while in dark arts. Considering the drop in raw power involved, you'd have to be in an extremely dire situation to ever even consider intentionally using its effect outside of dark arts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiteless

No, it's not bugged, just poorly designed and with a terrible tooltip. This time around, it seems like the writers tried to add a bit of flowery language to the tooltips (I've noticed this across several jobs, this is not just our own problem), which in the end leaves a lot of those tooltips being simply terrible for actually conveying the important information.

Carve and Spit offers either a 100 potency oGCD attack that regens a small amount of MP while out of dark arts, or a 450 potency oGCD attack with no extra effects while in dark arts. Considering the drop in raw power involved, you'd have to be in an extremely dire situation to ever even consider intentionally using its effect outside of dark arts.

---

You have to consider even using it WITH DA as a tank. its only a dps hit and SE heals you for 100% of the dmg which is the better choice mitigation wise. and the cooldown is horrible if we look in comparison to warrior...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiteless

No, it's not bugged..

---

Actually, there's also a different glitch in C&S.

If you don't know what it is, I'm sorry for you

Are you talking about cancelling it into another Dark Arts move while retaining the bonus for both moves? Because I am well aware of that one. It's actually pretty fun to use, and I'd actually like to see that incorporated more into DRK's gameplay, rather than removed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taranok

snip

---

Because we only have two cooldowns that are for physical, we also have an OH SH-- button which is living dead. Warrior and Paladin have both three cooldowns as well as an OH SH-- button. They have a reliable cooldown every 30 seconds to use, and if we use our entire toolset we have one cooldown for every 45-50 seconds.

There's been talk that grit is a 2.3x modifier with the highest potency combo and the perma darkside. Except the dark arte power slash is apparently only 6.5x to regular PS being 5.5x, not worth the mana imo and lines up with what I'm experiencing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Falgern

Because we only have two cooldowns that are for physical, we also have an OH SH-- button which is living dead. Warrior and Paladin have both three cooldowns as well as an OH SH-- button. They have a reliable cooldown every 30 seconds to use, and if we use our entire toolset we have one cooldown for every 45-50 seconds.

---

Living dead isn't a panic button, just as Holmgang isn't a panic button. The only true panic button in this game is Hallowed Ground, because Holmgang and Living Dead both put the healers on notice to fix the problem, and don't give much time, if any, to recover a disastrous situation. Yes, it's a "survive everything!" button, but a panic button it is not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taranok

snip

---

No matter what you wish to call it, you can call it rainbow power for all I care, dark knights need to have either enough cooldowns or abilities changed in a way that lets them have a way of mitigating damage at the same rate as the two other tanks. And the focus word here is mitigate. IE lower the damage from an ability, not take the entire ability's worth of damage to your face. Warriors and paladins can already reduce physical damage taken every 30 seconds. Heavensward has been all about generalizing the classes to make sure the toolset is roughly the same, if dark knights are ever to be considered an asset and not a liability they need to be changed to be able to provide the "service" as the other two tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Falgern

Snip

---

No they don't. Let me say it another way. While I agree a Dark Knight needs to be able to do content like other tanks, they should not need to do it as well--paladins for instance certainly PAY for all their great defensive cooldowns by lacking lots of other tools. Take Paladins AOE damage (LOL) or aoe threat in general--or their mobility, or burst damage. They don't have these things (which conversly, Dark Knights are fantastic at).

You cannot have your cake and eat it as well. I'm not saying Dark doesnt need help, but you should in no way mitigate like a paladin--because that would mean your class would need lots of nerfs in the places where you are actually quite strong, even if they are not in 'mitigation.

We don't need to mitigate like a Paladin. We just need to mitigate well enough and reliably enough that your average party can be willing to consider DRK as a viable and valuable alternative.

Also, the damage difference between tanks very likely isn't nearly as high over time as you make it out to be. DRK may have higher burst damage and do more to large groups, but its poor sustainability leaves it gasping for air in any fight longer than a few minutes, and trash has never mattered, and never will matter. If it did, we wouldn't be calling it trash.