Speaking as a Lvl 54 MCH here...
Anyone feel that the loss of auto attacks during gauss/wanderer isn't being made up with the 20% damage boost? Even with gauss round, I feel like the damage is the same at best (and a loss if i have to move), and my next tool being added would be ricochet.
Let's talk Gauss/Minuet
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06-22-2015, 11:21 AMRiceisNiceLet's talk Gauss/Minuet
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06-22-2015, 11:30 AMmicro48118
i am currently lvl 55 bard and i find it strange but i do kind of like the new song. if only for the one new ability so far that i have - Empyrean Arrow (or something). First time i hit over 1000 damage without echo buff. still have to get to 60 and see how everything else comes together, but so far i like it. I also only have the song on if i don't have to do alot of dodging. if i am constantly moving around, i turn off the song.
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06-22-2015, 11:55 AMSnowaeth
As a lvl 60 bard I feel very disappointed with how things turned out.
Unlike other classes our job is not getting expanded upon what it does, but just thrown around playstyle wise. People that like casters already had the choices of BLM + SMN, BRD had a different playstyle.
But the fact that we get a bunch of skills that just feel super underwhelming during the lvling process and at max level still so. Until maybe we can gear out and build for certain stat combinations isn't even my biggest issue.
The way these "stances/song" are implemented is pretty horrible.
They completely misalign or force sub optimal skill usuage.
Unlike BLM's the BRD wasn't made with this playstyle from the get go. So we have skills like Bloodletter triggering middle of a cast of a straight shot which triggers a straighter shot just before EA comes off cooldown and maybe blunt arrow too and sidewinder if that's how it turned out to be while having to place the flaming arrow as well. Oh and then there's the need to refresh dots too and all this while having low weapon damage and low potencies which are then being compensated by 20% damage increase which we already lost to the fact that we loose our auto attacks. And I didn't even mention the fact that unlike BLM's we have a couple more buffs on shorter cooldowns to keep up which cut into our GCD's too. And then there's the repelling shot which has 80 potency on a utility skill which can't really be done safely in this stance without risking cancelling out a skill or cutting into your gcd due to animation.
I really don't understand the thought-process of SE on the creation of these skills, but to top it off they tried to make MCH and BRD be kinda the same? Which is even worse. So now if you don't like one the other one is an aesthetically different looking version of the same thing so you won't like them both even though it used to be your favorite role and type of play. -
06-22-2015, 12:07 PMSovereignAegis
It is worse for Machinist than Bard. I see many Bard people complaining yet they get 3 skills on lower cooldowns with higher potency and benefitial effects (dot refresh), Machinist only gets a single 200 potency ability.
Bards at present outshine Machinist so hard lategame it is disturbing. -
06-22-2015, 12:18 PMEdellis
I'm currently only 53. I'm feeling like my DPS is higher with Minuet off, but applying DoTs with all buffs on and Barrage is best done with minuet on.
So until I get my next skill, i try to open with Minuet on, apply DoTs, and then turn it off for the rest of the duration of my buffs and onward.
My real issue with Bard ATM is how it has lost alot of clarity with its skill descriptions.
- Barrage trait still references auto attacks
- Barrage does not work on Quick Nock or Wide Volley, despite them being Weaponskills
- Battle Cry does not work on Wanderer's Minuet, despite being a song
Right now, Bard is suffering from decoherent skill descriptions, something this game has never really had a problem with until now.
But after reading the descriptions of all the proceeding skills...i really don't think i'll care by the time i hit 54 and get a 720 potency burst attack. -
06-22-2015, 12:25 PMsilentwindfr
i think the loose of auto-attack was made with the idea of balance, but, clearly it's not the case in reality.
the number can't lie.
Auto Attack = 100 potency for 1 gcd.
for the machinist:
- split shoot = 140, add 20% to this it will give you: an increase of 28 potency
- slug shoot = 180, add 20% to this it will give you: an increase of 36 potency
- clean shoot = 200, add 20% to this it will give you: an increase of 40 potency.
the fact to loose the capacity to move while shooting it's already a huge limitation, but the cost in dps is too much. since we loose dps with every GCD. i'm sure it's the same for the bard.
but that not the only change added into this expansion that are kinda bad, they was afraid that some jobs get too powerfull and did nerf them soo badly before even give it to us. like light speed and disable for the AST that are soo much lackluster. -
06-22-2015, 12:32 PMSasakiNoriThat'll be the case at level 60 too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edellis
Auto Attacks are not a 100 potency. However Gauss/Minuet still doesn't make up for the loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
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06-22-2015, 01:56 PMsilentwindfr
just did check up yep you are right, i had always think that auto attack was 100 potency, is more about 70 potency did check this time, mea culpa. but even with this number, we are still far from getting a boost of damage with gauss or minuet. they either need to increase the base damage of the skill, increase the boost of damage, or simply drop the auto attack disable.... because even with this the damage will not be amazing.
. -
06-22-2015, 06:54 PMRyaz
If Gauss really is a dps loss, that might be the nail on the coffin that drives me back to Ninja. I already enjoy the way ninjas combat flows, but I like the concept of the machinist, which is what drew me to it. I'll keep going until at least 50 with it, maybe 60, but it's discouraging.
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06-22-2015, 11:26 PMRose-Wild
It's a dps loss and it's counter intuitive with how many off global cooldowns we have. Might be a bit worth it at lv60 but we already were at the bottom of the dps scale and the expansion barely improves our dps at all when most of the other jobs get a lot of stuff. Also i don't know why we get that lv58 skill when we are a dps job...
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06-23-2015, 01:21 AMEdellisYou think so?Quote:
Originally Posted by SasakiNori
Empyreal Arrow is a second bloodletter on a slightly shorter cooldown, way higher potency than even Misery's End, and i assume it can be Barraged, which is a 720 potency burst.
Iron Jaws, also off GCD, saves you a windbite/posion arrow cast of reapplying them to be replaced with a higher potency attack. That's a very efficient DPS increase.
Sidewinder, another massive potency attack, maximum of 350 with a minute cooldown, and if this can be Barraged it's 1050 Potency which is easily one of the strongest abilities in this game, on a 60s cooldown.
Not to mention the 20% damage boost on all of these, which offsets the AA damage a little bit.
Has anyone parsed a Lv60 rotation? It may not be a supermassive DPS increase but i highly doubt it's a real decrease by the time you hit at least 54. -
06-23-2015, 01:29 AMXaphireIron Jaws is not off the GCD, Sidewinder is off it and therefore can't be barraged (I think?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Edellis
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06-23-2015, 01:37 AMEdellis
I haven't been able to get anyone to answer whether Sidewinder is affected by barrage or not. I highly doubt it considering the potency, but it'd be nice to know.
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06-23-2015, 01:38 AMCociCookieAlmost right, it's just that Sidewinder's an ability, not a weaponskill (Unlike Empyreal Arrow) so it can't be used with Barrage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaphire
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06-23-2015, 01:52 AMawesomeuno
They need to make it so we can use the skills without WM, that would be ideal. frees up auto attacks, while still giving us all these new tools
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06-23-2015, 02:19 AMCascadi
Gauss Barrel is a DPS loss for Machinists even at level 60, only usable for the opener for a small potency increase so other than AoE pulls it's not worth using.
This is really disappointing as level 52, 54, and 60 give skills that we will use once in a single target situation.
pls buff machinist -
06-23-2015, 03:12 AMSasakiNoriI have. WM is a dps increase on a full still fight (dummy) and even then not by a lot. As soon as a decent amount of movement is involved (practically every primal or raid) WM is a dps loss. Sidewinder is also not locked behind WM, despite what the tooltip says, so you can make use if it out of stance too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edellis
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06-23-2015, 03:43 AMAkashiXIWhat is your opener, or rather, do you have a video of you testing out Bard at 60? I would like to know how you're dealing with cooldowns/rotations/move priorities before thinking more into what you said about WM's viability :).Quote:
Originally Posted by SasakiNori
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06-23-2015, 03:56 AMSasakiNoriTried out both Krietors and a standard IR opener. Not really sure about the best opener for WM but I tried a few with blowing all buffs before your dots, weaving your buffs, or a mix of both.Quote:
Originally Posted by AkashiXI
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06-23-2015, 05:16 AMAkashiXIThat's exactly why I'm asking for the WM opener, not the 2.0 Bard opener (sorry I didn't clarify). The main reason why is that you're comparing one that's been tested and optimized with years of reasoning behind it, vs. an opener you think is good based upon a few days of trial and error. Not saying you're a bad player by any means, it's why I asked for some video evidence so I can personally see what you're doing. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SasakiNori
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06-23-2015, 05:37 AMSasakiNoriOh I'm sure there's still some room for optimization, but realistically, you're not going to suddenly get 50 more dps just by changing 1 or 2 oGCDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by AkashiXI
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06-23-2015, 10:13 AMRomsca
I haven't started on machinist class but I was wondering if SE's intent was "turret + (specials w/ gauss barrel bonus +100%proc chance) >/= turret + AA + (specials w/o gauss bonus)"?
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06-23-2015, 10:28 AMOoshimaSame sentiments. WM is only useful once you fully familiarize the flow of the fight and timings based on your party's composition and speed and find the right time to WM, and it should be used only when at least Hawk+RS+Barrage is up IMO. 3s cast time for WM + the loss of AA have to be substantially compensated to activate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SasakiNori
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06-23-2015, 10:51 AMSeifa
Sooooo, WM was announced as a fix to BRDs and their lack of damage because they could move while using abilities and as the stance for maximum dps to turn off only when heavy movement was required but mathemagicians debunked SE's design in just few days... Perfect! They discovered that in a dummy fight is just a slight dps increase compared to instant casts and as soon as you need movements the damage loss is quite a lot and movements are frequent in every dungeon and raid.
Now we have a stance that should used rarely in a fight, with a 3 second cast time (ugh), riddled with bugs (Bloodletter ability lock and Straigher Shot buff not used, hopefully fixed this morning) and that makes the use of our OGCDs frustrating as hell. I wonder if the class design team had any idea on what they were doing or they just slapped abilities at random in our kit and called it a day; i look at you Warden's Paean! -
06-23-2015, 10:55 AMawesomeunoI was having a lovely debate with an FC member about this. They have been working on this expansion for months, yet we've proven that the DPS is in fact worse than without WM 99.9% of the time...and it took us less than 3 days to figure this out. Git gud playtesters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seifa
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06-23-2015, 11:36 AMOoshimaAnd I am still trying to figure out what works and what doesn't on this lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seifa
Says prevents next detrimental effect.
Casts it and protection up seconds before dungeon boss uses a stun.
Party member still stunned.
Laughs. -
06-23-2015, 11:38 AMLunarEmerald
Minuet is a dps decrease until you learn empyreal arrow. And it becomes increasing better as you learn more skills. EA + barrage + plus other buffs = 3000 burst damage.
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06-23-2015, 11:48 AMMikedizzy
Can someone please post their starter rotation that is "in the works" for now? I really want to see where everyone's else headed with this.
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06-23-2015, 12:13 PMSasakiNoriMost obvious use for this would be Warriors pacification from Berserk. Who would have guessed. Doesn't work. ggQuote:
Originally Posted by Ooshima
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06-23-2015, 12:17 PMOoshimaI didn't tested that, my fellow BRD in the FC did and he laughed when he failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SasakiNori
I was like, Pacification? Screw it, get the healers to Esuna it lol. F**king 3s cast time lel.
Okay jokes aside I really think even if it works, it isn't worth it to use it for WAR. Because of the 3s cast time (and you have to stand still for that), it is only worth it imo for effects that are going to be applied to the whole party, or the effect cannot be Esuna'd -
06-23-2015, 12:40 PMEntropicBurst |= dpsQuote:
Originally Posted by LunarEmerald
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06-23-2015, 02:54 PMLunarEmeraldWasn't implying that it was. I was just saying that it has really nice burst. But any bard that knows what they're doing will see a significant dps increase with minuet and EA. Then once you get IJ, TP is no longer an issue. Good bards will pretty much never turn minuet off. It definitely takes time getting used to and requires relearning the job but minuet without a doubt, makes bard a lot better as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropic
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06-23-2015, 03:44 PMShurrikhan
At 100 potency per 3 seconds (actual per-hit damage then adjusted for slower/faster weapons), it's already averaging 80 potency per GCD. 20% of a Heavy Shot (30) or even of a Windbite (62) simply cannot make that up in single target until paired with optimal use of Barrage on top of nearly 0 dps loss from movement.
That said, I do notice a large dps increase in mass-DoTing AoE pulls, especially after all DoTs are running on Iron Jaws as to cut their maintenance in half. >> Rain of Death virtually every GCD with Wide Volley spam, SS maintenance, DoT/IJ maintenance. Don't especially need to double-oGCD, already dealing BLM AoE due to the 200 potency per GCD and 80 potency per global tick, per enemy. That said, over a few enemies, SW and EA both become a dps outside of Barrage, so there goes that too... -
06-23-2015, 04:07 PMOoshimaI must have been a shitty bard who knows shit about my job and have to turn off minuet in order to dodge continuous floor AoEs thenQuote:
Originally Posted by LunarEmerald
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06-23-2015, 04:52 PMLyahaProblem is, this isn't the job we signed up for, change a rotation, fine, but don't change the entire playstyle of a class on a whim without properly explaining it, I'm gonna get flack for this, but during the France stream, maybe they should have spend less time on Yoshi-P's favorite class (which was bullshit, I don't care that he's the producer, that's a dick move to any non-BLM player) and actually explained classes that had major changes made to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarEmerald
Hopefully they'll comment on one of these threads, because I'm currently finding the lack of discussion between player and devs a bit disconcerting when I'm comparing the support to say Wildstar.