RIP Ninja

SE took the one thing that was so horribly broken about DRG they had to remove it from most all of their skills...and added them to NIN instead. I hope all you ninjas out there like dancing, because you're going to be doing a lot of it in HW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiroh

SE took the one thing that was so horribly broken about DRG they had to remove it from most all of their skills...and added them to NIN instead. I hope all you ninjas out there like dancing, because you're going to be doing a lot of it in HW.

---

I doubt that they will be "must meet" conditions and be closer to "bonus on top" conditions like the Monk has and Dragoon was changed to.

You dont NEED to do the positional but you will do more dmg doing them so is basically like mnk and drg.

I heard the new positional is the front is this true?

and ninja already has some positionals for for trick attack and sneak attack. Ninja is my fav with dragoon being my 2nd. doesn't seem like ninja got too much i want more ninjustu. I think dragoon is going to my top favorite once HW hits

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

I doubt that they will be "must meet" conditions and be closer to "bonus on top" conditions like the Monk has and Dragoon was changed to.

---

Exactly. They don't think positionals are bad on DRG, just that they're clunky when they stop a combo or don't grant the effect.
I think it's safe to assume the new positionals will be just potency bonuses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vejjiegirl

I heard the new positional is the front is this true?

---

It was a joke. They said clearly after that they won't have front positionals for the new skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiroh

SE took the one thing that was so horribly broken about DRG they had to remove it from most all of their skills...and added them to NIN instead. I hope all you ninjas out there like dancing, because you're going to be doing a lot of it in HW.

---

I was born to dance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

I doubt that they will be "must meet" conditions and be closer to "bonus on top" conditions like the Monk has and Dragoon was changed to.

---

Actually the only skills that have any positional left on them at all for DRG are heavy thrust and chaos thrust, the others were outright removed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiroh

Actually the only skills that have any positional left on them at all for DRG are heavy thrust and chaos thrust, the others were outright removed.

---

They only had those 2 positionals in the first place!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyrion

They only had those 2 positionals in the first place!

---

Wrong, originally the entire Impulse Drive -> Disembowel -> Chaos Thrust chain had a positional requirement on each move, and Heavy Thrust also had a positional requirement rather than a bonus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bloody

Wrong, originally the entire Impulse Drive -> Disembowel -> Chaos Thrust chain had a positional requirement on each move, and Heavy Thrust also had a positional requirement rather than a bonus.

---

No, the original was that impulse drive had to land a hit from behind to chain I to the other two (but disembowel/chaos could be from anywhere)

And that heavy thrust worked like current trick attack - had to land the positional to take effect...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bloody

Wrong, originally the entire Impulse Drive -> Disembowel -> Chaos Thrust chain had a positional requirement on each move, and Heavy Thrust also had a positional requirement rather than a bonus.

---

Oh, there was Impulse Drive.
Disembowel never had a positional.
Chaos Thrust didn't either, but they added a bonus to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eidolon

No, the original was that impulse drive had to land a hit from behind to chain I to the other two (but disembowel/chaos could be from anywhere)

---

But they did have damage bonuses from being in the correct position, which has been removed from Impulse Drive (requirement) and from Disembowel (bonus) and added directly to the skill damage by default.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiroh

But they did have damage bonuses from being in the correct position, which has been removed from Impulse Drive (requirement) and from Disembowel (bonus) and added directly to the skill damage by default.

---

What's confusing here?
They took away ID's positional requirement and added a positional bonus to Chaos Thrust.
They left the positional bonus on Heavy Thrust, and the buff doesn't have a positional requirement anymore.

SE are okay with positionals once they're bonuses.
Trick Attack seems to be a noticeable exception but it's basically a raid cooldown, so that's probably why it's exempt.

Just because they said they have new positionals on NIN, there's no reason to assume they're requirements.
It's going to be bonuses like the other two melee classes are designed for.

What are you on about? MNK have positionals on every single attack pretty much, and I have no problem doing them, why is it such a big deal for NIN?

They are changing this because NIN have too much gain without actually doing anything... MNK have their positionals and GL, DRG have a pretty complex "rotation"(and I mean with all their oGCD abilities to be used at the right time), as well as at least 2 positionals that gets used pretty often.

NIN have 1 positional that they use rarely in their rotation, and they don't have a very complex rotation either... I'm not saying they're a faceroll, but with their high DPS and Trick Attack/Goad, you'd expect them to have at least some more challenging mechanics.

Also, what are you talking about them removing positionals from DRG and giving it to NIN? DRG still have the same requirements as before to get bonus damage(have always been just 2 abilities, just CT instead of ID), and the only difference is that you can continue your combo even if you don't get that bonus damage. I'm 99.9999% certain NIN would get the same mechanic.

While MNK and DRG seem to get all new, interesting mechanics that sound like a huge boost in strength, Ninja gets the ability to decrease enmity of a target. Whoopdeedoo. In what kind of content has enmity ever been a real problem? And if it becomes a problem in Heavensward, how is lowering the enmity of a single target going to solve it?

NIN is starting to sound like a babysitter class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiroh

Actually the only skills that have any positional left on them at all for DRG are heavy thrust and chaos thrust, the others were outright removed.

---

Impulse Drive and Heavy Thrust were the only ones that originally had positional requirements. Heavy Thrust was changed so that the hitting flanks was not required to get the buff or give Ring of Thorns the combo bonus. Impulse Drive's positional was moved to Chaos Thrust. Dragoon's still have the same number of positional requirements.

I really hate positional skills, when you play alone you do minimal damage unless you root the mob, or manage to position yourself when they cast skills, and the biggest problem is that now that there are going to be a huge increment in new tanks, classes with positonal skills will suffer the most when they get a newbie tank that starts moving the mobs around all over the place breaking your combos, gonna be fun.

I guess I'll focus on Machinist once HW comes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Impulse Drive and Heavy Thrust were the only ones that originally had positional requirements. Heavy Thrust was changed so that the hitting flanks was not required to get the buff or give Ring of Thorns the combo bonus.

---

You actually still need to hit the flank for it to trigger ring of thorns' bonus for some reason. Maybe they forgot about it.

On topic: I am absolutely positive that NINs positions will work like MNKs or DRGs new system, rather than the old one. Having positionals per se is not a problem, when it prevents you from using your weapon skills, it is, which was the reason why they changed it for DRG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

While MNK and DRG seem to get all new, interesting mechanics that sound like a huge boost in strength, Ninja gets the ability to decrease enmity of a target. Whoopdeedoo. In what kind of content has enmity ever been a real problem? And if it becomes a problem in Heavensward, how is lowering the enmity of a single target going to solve it?

NIN is starting to sound like a babysitter class.

---

Question. Sorry if dumb.
I didn't see much of the live letter but is it the ability to lower hate on itself like quelling strikes? Or another target in the party?

Not very happy with the nin changes. I switched to escape having to run around like a MNK to do decent damage, cause that nonsense was hurting my hand when I was handling that for long periods of time and boss mechanics.

Not sure how the lower enmity is going to work, it might have a purpose if people didn't die so fast once things went wrong. if enmity goes out of control people tend to die quick, otherwise the tank has a staggering lead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Not very happy with the nin changes. I switched to escape having to run around like a MNK to do decent damage, cause that nonsense was hurting my hand when I was handling that for long periods of time and boss mechanics.

---

That's not even to mention what happens to DPS with positional requirements when the tank spins the enemies around. God help us if HW mobs have lots of cleaves/AoEs, they'll be spinning like tops.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nep_Nep

Question. Sorry if dumb.
I didn't see much of the live letter but is it the ability to lower hate on itself like quelling strikes? Or another target in the party?

---

Targetted, so you can either use it on yourself or somebody else. If they did the same for Goad, I'd rejoice. They're giving MNK the ability to recover their own TP, so why not do the same for NIN?

Doesn't matter if you're a monk, a dragoon or a ninja, positional skills are an absolute nightmare to work with when you're dodging attacks like birds in a fireworks display.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

Targetted, so you can either use it on yourself or somebody else. If they did the same for Goad, I'd rejoice. They're giving MNK the ability to recover their own TP, so why not do the same for NIN?

---

They could at least bother to include party tp bars so we don't have to guess for our Goad, was that included in the gameplay?

NIN are getting new weaponskills and with them, the ability to keep up Fuuton with recasting it.
That's a huge buff, especially for those with Mudra lag, since it's really the 3-Mudra casts where you feel it.
NIN is a relatively new class, so it's not going to get as much changes.
And it's not like it needs much mechanical buffs, since we're the strongest melee on live.

The latency weakness of Mudra is now reduced.
My only complaint left is that Shukuchi feels slow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nep_Nep

Question. Sorry if dumb.
I didn't see much of the live letter but is it the ability to lower hate on itself like quelling strikes? Or another target in the party?

---

You can use it on yourself and on others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

They could at least bother to include party tp bars so we don't have to guess for our Goad, was that included in the gameplay?

---

Sadly no TP bars visible for partymembers still, they mentioned that at some other point a while ago. I completely agree that Goad is a bit of a smack in the face, considering it's ONLY for party members, while you can see ONLY your own TP bar. Useful skill to be sure, but yeah. Let us use it on ourselves and/or let us see party members' TP bars. It's just not implemented well, in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

Targetted, so you can either use it on yourself or somebody else. If they did the same for Goad, I'd rejoice. They're giving MNK the ability to recover their own TP, so why not do the same for NIN?

---

I agree Goad should be able to be used on yourself.
As for the skill I guess it helps with overhealing and such.
Hopefully we won't have any trolls using it on Tanks so enemies don't come sit on the DPS or Healer's faces. xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nep_Nep

Hopefully we won't have any trolls using it on Tanks so enemies don't come sit on the DPS or Healer's faces. xD

---

Come on, with this community?

You know better than that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nep_Nep

I agree Goad should be able to be used on yourself.
As for the skill I guess it helps with overhealing and such.
Hopefully we won't have any trolls using it on Tanks so enemies don't come sit on the DPS or Healer's face. xD

---

In the vast majority of cases, tanks shouldn't have any enmity problems whatsoever. And in the rare cases when they do, the target usually dies in one or maximum two hits anyway (if it's raid content - if it isn't, the healer having aggro for a few seconds until the tank uses Flash or Overpower hardly matters), so in most of those cases, it'll already be too late for the NIN to target said teammate, cast the skill, and wait for the game's often rather sluggish enmity system to actually react to the change.
It'll be okay for self use, at least. Still heavily underwhelming when compared to what MNK and DRG get in Heavensward. Clearly we don't know all the skills we'll be getting, but just from today's presentation, MNK and DRG sounded amazing, while NIN sounded very, very "meh".

But yes, the trolling potential with this might be immense. You'll have to excuse me if I'll occasionally do that, myself - it'd be just too hilarious to resist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nep_Nep

I agree Goad should be able to be used on yourself.
As for the skill I guess it helps with overhealing and such.
Hopefully we won't have any trolls using it on Tanks so enemies don't come sit on the DPS or Healer's faces. xD

---

As long as the new ability has a longer cooldown than Provoke and there is only one troll Ninja in the party, targeting the tank with that ability should not be too devastating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Myrhn

You dont NEED to do the positional but you will do more dmg doing them so is basically like mnk and drg.

---

You need to on those DPS checks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

As long as the new ability has a longer cooldown than Provoke and there is only one troll Ninja in the party, targeting the tank with that ability should not be too devastating.

---

Think groups of enemies and only 1 provoke and you'll see how people might be concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Myrhn

You dont NEED to do the positional but you will do more dmg doing them so is basically like mnk and drg.

---

When its the difference between an out of combo aoelian edge and a proper aoelian edge, its not "you don't need to".

Meh. Guess I permanently retire my NIN on 6/18. It was a good run, but it's over now. Positionals SUCK. They always have, always will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

When its the difference between an out of combo aoelian edge and a proper aoelian edge, its not "you don't need to".

---

I doubt the loss on the positionals will be 220 potency. The positional bonus will be around 50 at most.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

I doubt the loss on the positionals will be 220 potency. The positional bonus will be around 50 at most.

---

??? The positional bonus on Sneak/Trick attack (which is already in the game) is 200/160 respectively. It is entirely plausible that the bonus could be 200+ given what we already have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apricoth

If you are playing Ninja and you are not dancing already, you are doing it wrong.

---

Ninja has absolutely no reason whatsoever to position themselves for any skills but sneak/trick attack. There are no other positional bonuses on Ninja skills, and you should already be behind the enemy anyways so it's hardly moving to begin with.

If you are playing Ninja and you are not dancing already, you are doing it wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apricoth

If you are playing Ninja and you are not dancing already, you are doing it wrong.

---

Care to elaborate, perhaps? Currently, as long as the boss mechanics allow it, there's no reason to stay at a target's rear 100% of the time. If it's not to dodge AoE, a NIN never has to position themselves any differently.

I could care less about the positionals, I'm more upset that we get pretty much nothing. Sure not having to recast huton is nice, but all that gives us is an extra raiton, woooo much damage. We get no shiny buff ability that lets us go awesome mode. I am trying to figure out how our damage will go up to meet these others who get all these cool buffs that strengthen their rotation.

The aggro skill is pretty meh, if the tanks are doing bad this won't help much. Nin won't even get to play with it outside party's so it sits rusting along with goad for solo play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiroh

??? The positional bonus on Sneak/Trick attack (which is already in the game) is 200/160 respectively. It is entirely plausible that the bonus could be 200+ given what we already have.

---

Monk positional bonus is 40-50. IIRC, sneak/trick attack are not on the global cooldown. Skills on GCD I doubt will have that large of a bonus.

As a monk main, I always aim to hit positionals. I never say I'm not going to hit positional just because I don't have to. Only time I miss on a positional is when it's a matter of losing greased lightning. If I have the time for ideal positioning, I will.

I'm also mixed on positional. Yeah, they are a pain, but without them, monk could be too boring. I just got done light farming on my warrior and most of the time I just dps as an off tank during HM primal farms. It was kind of boring with not having to worry about positional.