MSQ Questions (MAJOR Spoilers)

So I recently finished up the MSQ, and there are some things I'm trying to wrap my head around. I figured I'd check with you guys to see if you could help my understand.

As far as I know, by near the end of the MSQ storyline the 3 leaders knew Ul'Dah was compromised one way or the other, and that people were plotting at least against the Sultanate.

Raubahn (may his arm RIP) had this whole little soliloquy about how he knew they could hear him, implying that he knew the Monetarists' ears were everywhere and that secrets rarely stay secret.

So with that in mind, why, why, WHY do the leaders insist on continuing to have all of their major meetings in Ul'Dah? It's like they're saying "Hey! People plotting against us! Here are our plans, take them pleeeeaaaase!"

It's a leap of logic that I'm struggling with. Sure Gridania and Limsa Lominsa have their own fair share of issues, but a lot of it seems more external than internal (i.e. troubles with beastmen).

And if the meetings were taking place in another locale, it would have made the Monetarists' plot at the end at least a little harder to pull off.

TLDR -- I don't get, plz halp T-T

Thanks for teaching me how to use the hidey box!

Limsa has enormous internal issues particularly considering the origin of the city-state. I'm really not sure what's holding that city-state together at this point considering it's just a bunch of pirates.

Gridania has its own share of problems including poachers and the like, on top of having to continually appease the elementals. We probably don't want another giant flood.

And use [hb] tags for the spoilers. You can also edit your post to go past the 1000 character limit.

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

I had to put my question in a separate box because of the character limit.

So I recently finished up the MSQ, and there are some things I'm trying to wrap my head around. I figured I'd check with you guys to see if you could help my understand.

Also, if someone can teach me how to do the Spoiler clicky thing, I'd really appreciate it.

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hb is the spoiler tag. I guess it stands for hidey-box? >_>

Also, you can bypass the 1k character limit by editing your post.

Also also, this is a pretty good question. I can't think of a very good justification off-hand, either.

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Originally Posted by gamesmart

Limsa has enormous internal issues particularly considering the origin of the city-state. I'm really not sure what's holding that city-state together at this point considering it's just a bunch of pirates.

Gridania has its own share of problems including poachers and the like, on top of having to continually appease the elementals. We probably don't want another giant flood.

And use [hb] tags for the spoilers. You can also edit your post to go past the 1000 character limit.

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But if you take the above and compare them to a highly compromised military, wouldn't that throw up more red flags for leaders? Why couldn't they have chosen a more neutral location?

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

... why, why, WHY do the leaders insist on continuing to have all of their major meetings in Ul'Dah? It's like they're saying "Hey! People plotting against us! Here are our plans, take them please!"

...And if the meetings were taking place in another locale, it would have made the Monetarists' plot at the end at least a little harder to pull off.

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No exact reason is ever given. I'd like to think it's because Limsa and Gridania just don't have a facility for something like the victory feast, but as to why Ul'dah is the seat of most 2.x meetings I couldn't say. I guess the Bismarck or Mih Khetto's Ampitheatre would work, but it was intended to be a sort of private event. (Also I'm making waffles if they ever hold such an event at the Bismarck - I'm sure Lynsgath would understand.)

That said, the victory feast was planned by Nanamo as her "abdicating the throne" event, so it makes more sense to hold it in Ul'dah. Makes more sense to do things that way, no?

From a non-story perspective, the Fragrant Chamber is just very easy to use for meetings and other official events. It already exists, so it doesn't require time and effort to put in the game (like a private dining hall in Limsa) and is large enough to accommodate groups of people; Merlwyb's office is rather small, and while the Lotus Stand is spacious it doesn't really have the facilities for something like a party.

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

But if you take the above and compare them to a highly compromised military, wouldn't that throw up more red flags for leaders? Why couldn't they have chosen a more neutral location?

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Since we're the only ones that can really teleport at will, arranging to meet in a more neutral location (such as Revenant's Toll) would be extremely time-consuming (and possibly even MORE dangerous) for everyone involved, particularly due to the lack of an airship landing in Mor Dhona.

Not to mention that it wouldn't matter considering the nature of the corrupt Braves

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Originally Posted by Cilia

That said, the victory feast was planned by Nanamo as her "abdicating the throne" event, so it makes more sense to hold it in Ul'dah. Makes more sense to do things that way, no?

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Party aside, however, they did also have a few leader meetings in Ul'Dah as well which are among some of the ones I didn't understand since they knew Ul'Dah was compromised. I do see what you mean about the victory feast, though, and that's a good point.

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

Raubahn <...> knew the Monetarists' ears were everywhere and that secrets rarely stay secret. So with that in mind, why, why, WHY do the leaders insist on continuing to have all of their major meetings in Ul'Dah? It's like they're saying "Hey! People plotting against us! Here are our plans, take them pleeeeaaaase!"

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I think it's mostly a matter of cost-benefit analysis and certain things were estimated poorly.

By having the meetings in Ul'dah, you find a certain number of conveniences. For one, the Gridanians and Lominsans travel roughly equal distance; it's a crossroads. A smaller point, but possibly just as relevant, the Fragrant Chamber (unlike the Lotus Stand or the Bridge), actually has enough seats for everyone (and their discussions tend to be quite lengthy, even if we only see the important bits). With Ul'dah being the Alliance's bankroller, the risk seems rather small (most of the time) considering that the Syndicate is unlikely to sabotage its own investments.

In the end, was any of the information potentially overheard in the Fragrant Chamber directly responsible for any of the outcomes?

I think its mostly due to Ul'dah being in between Limsa and Gridania that it eventually became the unofficial meeting ground for the GC leaders.

Since it's in the middle the GC leaders can have multiple ways of going there: Merlwyb can go via Vesper Bay then chocobo and Kan K Senna can go from Camp Tranquil if they wanna be more incognito. Or they can go via airship

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

By having the meetings in Ul'dah, you find a certain number of conveniences. For one, the Gridanians and Lominsans travel roughly equal distance; it's a crossroads. A smaller point, but possibly just as relevant, the Fragrant Chamber (unlike the Lotus Stand or the Bridge), actually has enough seats for everyone (and their discussions tend to be quite lengthy, even if we only see the important bits). With Ul'dah being the Alliance's bankroller, the risk seems rather small (most of the time) considering that the Syndicate is unlikely to sabotage its own investments.

In the end, was any of the information potentially overheard in the Fragrant Chamber directly responsible for any of the outcomes?

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Meh, the chairs are a non-point (if this weren't a video game, anyway). Both of the other cities have standing armies, have some of the privates put out some chairs, problem solved. I also assume that travel is mostly accomplished by airship, so one destination shouldn't be much more inconvenient than any other.

As for whether anything said in the Fragrant Chamber led to 2.55's events. . .we don't know. I wouldn't doubt it, though.

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

Party aside, however, they did also have a few leader meetings in Ul'Dah as well which are among some of the ones I didn't understand since they knew Ul'Dah was compromised. I do see what you mean about the victory feast, though, and that's a good point.

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Well, 5 minutes on the Ul'dahn streets will tell you the place is corrupt as all hell - but nobody, unless you were incredibly savvy or paranoid, was expecting the power play at the victory feast.

As to why they tend to use the Fragrant Chamber for meetings, well, it's the only facility that can comfortably accommodate the delegates necessary for a proper "Alliance" meeting. For one of those we need at least half a dozen seats or so (three for the Grand Company leaders, one for maybe Nanamo, and two or three for the Scions including us). Merlwyb's office has only one seat - hers - and the Lotus Stand doesn't seem to have any, so the only place available for extended discussion and planning is the Fragrant Chamber. Also makes sense since aside from the episodic Primal uprising, 2.1-2.5.5's overarching story was heavily invested in Ul'dahn politics.

... and as Moose pointed out, Ul'dah is roughly equidistant from Gridania and Limsa, so it makes the most logistical sense.

I guess I can see the arguments about seating/travel. Still, they seem like minor issues if you're talking about matters of national security being tapped into, don't they? I mean, wouldn't you go out of your way a bit to avoid compromised locations if the security of your nation could potentially be at risk? Wouldn't you just nab a random room lying around, post a couple guards outside and grab 3-4 chairs for people to sit in?

I guess that's why I don't really buy the logistics/seating bit -- The meetings aren't really big, they're only 3-6 people, and if these people care about their countries as much as they say they do, what's 2-6 more hours of travel time?

For the victory party, the explanations given here totally make sense, so that's a load off of my mind. Thanks!

The Sultana is probably the least mobile of all the cities' leaders. She had to don a disguise just to pray at a tree 60 yalms away from the city gate! I can't imagine the bureaucracy and huge entourage she'd need to muster to get permission to leave Ul'dah.

Also, the banquet was basically a fundraising event to get the rich people in Ul'dah to buy war bonds (think of it as equivalent to a modern day charity gala). Limsa and Gridania don't have enough rich people to hold such an event.

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

I guess I can see the arguments about seating/travel. Still, they seem like minor issues if you're talking about matters of national security being tapped into, don't they? I mean, wouldn't you go out of your way a bit to avoid compromised locations if the security of your nation could potentially be at risk? Wouldn't you just nab a random room lying around, post a couple guards outside and grab 3-4 chairs for people to sit in?

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For the most part nobody suspected foul play - before 2.5.5 Ul'dah was relatively secure, with the Immortal Flames policing the streets instead of the Brass Blades and the Crystal Braves having a much subdued presence in the city. Ul'dah doesn't have a general lack of security (though the rampant corruption doesn't help), but that 2.5.5's events set it up to be that way; by mobilizing the Flames to help with the Steps of Faith and having the Blades and Braves in their pocket, the Monetarists were able to effectively have free reign in Ul'dah and get away with much more than they should have been able to.

I do wonder if the Sultana is free to travel. Unlike the other leaders, she lacks independence, with the Syndicate keeping an eye on her seemly non stop. And sending Raubahn doesn't have the same cache. Considering the financing for the Eorzian Alliance comes mainly from Ul'dah, the Syndicate might demand the meetings take place in their home city.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

I do wonder if the Sultana is free to travel. Unlike the other leaders, she lacks independence

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I wouldn't be surprised if that's a big part of it, too; she skipped the declaration of the Seventh Astral Era, didn't she?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

one destination shouldn't be much more inconvenient than any other.

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Chairs are a definitely not a strong point, lol; I'm just that the Command Room isn't accommodating, the Lotus Stand is outdoors, and other venues lack the same security considerations as the leadership halls (which opens avenues to far more than the Syndicate, who usually have access to and utilize the Fragrant Chamber, anyway).

As for airshipping, Eorzea is huge; it's a continent. They shrug that off for game mechanics when it comes to players, but NPCs still have to live within the limitations of their own world, traveling what looks to be analogous to a sizable chunk of Africa to get from Abalathia's Spine to Cape Deadwind. Even if it's a difference of 12 hours versus 24 riding an open-carriage balloon, round trip travel plus meetings is a lot of a nation's leader to factor into a schedule. I wouldn't dismiss it as irrelevant.

Of all the points brought up so far, Nanamo's lack of mobility seems to weigh heaviest on the decision itself, though I still question what the Syndicate could overhear in a room they usually have access to, anyway, on matters that they themselves have coin invested in. It seems to be a bad place for Nanamo to speak freely about Ul'dahn matters, not a bad place for the Alliance to meet in general (unless someone on the Syndicate plans to allow Ul'dah to go under entirely in an Ascian or Galrean machination). In that vein, the only thing I can imagine them overhearing that's a threat would be when Nanamo spoke of Cartenau and Omega, expressing a desire to outmaneuver Teledji.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Even if it's a difference of 12 hours versus 24 riding an open-carriage balloon, round trip travel plus meetings is a lot of a nation's leader to factor into a schedule. I wouldn't dismiss it as irrelevant.

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Oh, it's definitely relevant. But in my experience operational security should almost always be the highest priority. Honestly, I think the Antecedent's Chamber in the Rising Stones is the only place in the game that I would discuss things without bringing in additional security to make sure there weren't spies (at least, of the places we've seen secrets discussed).

To be honest, I think a key issue is that no one expected such a dramatic play by the Monetarists. Its one thing being corrupt. It's another to stage a coup with so much at stake. The Monetarists aren't idiots. They got wealthy because they were smart. This is a high risk play they are doing. It holds the potential to blow up in there faces big time.

Alliance matters aren't something that could be hidden from the Monetarists anyway. They control Ul'dah's pursestrings so cutting them out would be out of the question.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Oh, it's definitely relevant. But in my experience operational security should almost always be the highest priority. Honestly, I think the Antecedent's Chamber in the Rising Stones is the only place in the game that I would discuss things without bringing in additional security to make sure there weren't spies (at least, of the places we've seen secrets discussed).

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Which actually wouldn't necessarily work either, since by the end of the storyline it becomes more than evident that the Crystal Braves (I still think that name is dumb) is in the Monetarists' back pocket too.

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

Which actually wouldn't necessarily work either, since by the end of the storyline it becomes more than evident that the Crystal Braves (I still think that name is dumb) is in the Monetarists' back pocket too.

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True, but people are more likely to notice a Crystal Brave standing at the door trying to eavesdrop. Just post your guards at the end of the hallway further from the door and tell them that no one goes past without being announced. It's not perfect, but it seems better than what they were doing. I mean, security in the Fragrant Chamber is so crappy that Alphinaud, the WoL, Minfilia, and Cid all burst in on a meeting of the nation's rulers with our weapons and completely unannounced. A place that would allow an entrance like that is not a place you want to discuss anything remotely secretive.

Not to mention everyone has a stake in those ruins that Teledji Adeledji wanted, and they all knew it... I figured it'd be bad to talk about national issues there too, since it would give him insight on when best to make his move.

Again, the Monetarists can't exactly be left out of national issues because they control the money. Nanamo's power was pretty limited so whatever she discussed involving international affairs would have to be approved by the Syndicate anyway. As for national issue, she could hardly hop over to Gridania whenever she wanted to have a private chat. The Syndicate had a great deal of influence over her movements too. It was Lolorito who set up the Nanamo visit to Limsa Lominsa in the CUL quests and solely just to try and embarrass the PC.

I never did any of the CUL quests; that's interesting to know.