PLD any better than WAR?

Just so you know, I've quit my plans for endgaming for now and decided to switch to PLD instead and level that to 50 as well.

Is PLD better or worse at tanking than WAR? It will be my first time tanking with a sword and shield.

Overall they both stack up well, there might be some situation where one is better over the other (I haven't done all the coils so can't say for sure), and even then having both in one party when applicable works out well.

PLDs are a little more boring in comparison since they only have one combo, but it works fine. Stance changes are a little more involved since you have both Sword Oath (for DPS) and Shield Oath (for tanking). It also has the almighty Provoke, a must have for even your WAR (If you didn't get it yet).

This all said, if you aren't going to be doing end game, the differences are pretty much just appearance.

WAR's are great for add pickups. PLD's tend to be MT's due to their many defensive abilities and damage mitigation.

It's a matter of personal preference more than anything else. Paladins have fewer active skills and a much simpler rotation, but a larger variety of cooldowns to play with. Otherwise it's mostly just minor differences - like their AOE threat builder has a 360 degree radius but doesn't do damage, and their stun is on the GCD but spammable. Geared right and played decently there's very little between them in terms of tanking capability.

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Originally Posted by JimboTCB

It's a matter of personal preference more than anything else. Paladins have fewer active skills and a much simpler rotation, but a larger variety of cooldowns to play with. Otherwise it's mostly just minor differences - like their AOE threat builder has a 360 degree radius but doesn't do damage, and their stun is on the GCD but spammable. Geared right and played decently there's very little between them in terms of tanking capability.

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Well flash (and provoke) is available to warriors too.

There's a slight difference in advantage to both, but they both get the job done quite well. Play whichever one you have more fun with/like the look of the gear more. There are no wrong choices.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Well flash (and provoke) is available to warriors too.

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Flash is of limited use to warriors as they have much smaller MP pools and no way of regenerating it. Situationally useful I guess, if you want to sprint through a bunch of mobs and aggro them on the way through. Provoke, on the other hand, should probably be baseline for both tank classes and it seems bizarre that it isn't.

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Originally Posted by JimboTCB

It's a matter of personal preference more than anything else. Paladins have fewer active skills and a much simpler rotation, but a larger variety of cooldowns to play with. Otherwise it's mostly just minor differences - like their AOE threat builder has a 360 degree radius but doesn't do damage, and their stun is on the GCD but spammable. Geared right and played decently there's very little between them in terms of tanking capability.

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Pretty much this. The vast majority of raid parties take one of each because they both have their perks. Paladin is easier to go into a new encounter on because they have a wide array of defensive cooldowns and they're all off-GCD. Warrior cooldowns are a little more dependent on knowing what's coming up, mostly since Inner Beast is on the GCD.

The only reasonable answer is to take both. They each excel at one area while being mediocre in others; having both in a raid group composition will help each other fill in each other's short comings.

When it comes to 4 man or old content though, it doesn't make too much of a difference.

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Originally Posted by JimboTCB

Flash is of limited use to warriors as they have much smaller MP pools and no way of regenerating it. Situationally useful I guess, if you want to sprint through a bunch of mobs and aggro them on the way through. Provoke, on the other hand, should probably be baseline for both tank classes and it seems bizarre that it isn't.

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Ehm... flash is awesome for warrior. You have no use for mana so flash away, save TP, and if you flash a cced target it doesn't break CC. Bad warriors don't use flash.

It depends on what kind of Tank you wanna be. I find that PLD offers more supportive abilities for the party.
1. They can spam Stun and Silence (while WARs stun is on cool down)
2. Hallowed Ground is great
3. Cover is very useful to help protect a party members
3. Access to Stoneskin and Protect. Ideally you wont have to use either if your healers are good, but is sure is nice to help stoneskin either yourself or a party member. You won't be needing the MP anyways.

The only issue I have it that it's abit harder to keep aggro leveling up and even in endgame dungeons

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Ehm... flash is awesome for warrior. You have no use for mana so flash away, save TP, and if you flash a cced target it doesn't break CC. Bad warriors don't use flash.

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Paladin has pretty limited use for their mana too (stance dancing, casting stone skin). What they do have is a way to get mana back, though. Riot Blade all day! In any case, he didn't say Flash is useless for Warriors. He said it's of limited use, and I'd tend to agree since warriors can generally only cast around 3 Flashes with their limited mana pool. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by myahele

3. Access to Stoneskin and Protect. Ideally you want have to use either if your healer are good, but is sure is nice to help stoneskin either yourself or a party member. You won't be needing the MP anyways.

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Fun with Stone Skin: use it on yourself, Leeroy into Bahamut's face during divebombs! :D

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Ehm... flash is awesome for warrior. You have no use for mana so flash away, save TP, and if you flash a cced target it doesn't break CC. Bad warriors don't use flash.

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Also keep in mind that Warriors staple skill, "Berserk", gives Pacification. You can use Flash when you are Pacified and can't do anything else - it's extra enmity at that point.

It's also good if you get c aught off guard while in Pacification.

There are a number of times I'll choose to use flash on Warrior. When I need AoE pickups but want to conserve TP is the biggest of them. In t13, I use it to pick up the gusts as they come in, then overpower 3-4 times, then pick up my sin. It usually has me bottoming out of my TP when I'm low.

Though don't say that on Reddit. Those idiots think you don't use flash or Awareness for anything. lol.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Paladin has pretty limited use for their mana too (stance dancing, casting stone skin). What they do have is a way to get mana back, though. Riot Blade all day! In any case, he didn't say Flash is useless for Warriors. He said it's of limited use, and I'd tend to agree since warriors can generally only cast around 3 Flashes with their limited mana pool.

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I really nope that they give us a use for cure. Make shield oath give us some mind based on our strength so that we can use cure. It feels odd that the warrior is the self healer rather than the paladin.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

I really nope that they give us a use for cure. Make shield oath give us some mind based on our strength so that we can use cure. It feels odd that the warrior is the self healer rather than the paladin.

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Lol right? Granted Paladin has decent party utility with Cover and Stone Skin, I just wish our Cure wasn't a joke. xD

The upside to running a Paladin is you don't actually need a single cross-class skill. Most of the Warrior skills are mildly useful at best, almost meaningless at worst. Conversely, if you're running a Warrior you'll want most of Paladin's cross-class skills. I'm talking about Convalescence, Provoke and Flash.

Paladin has the best damage mitigation of the two jobs. The shield blocks an average 25% damage each time and kicks in fairly reliably at high levels. That's on top of your parry. Additionally they have Rampart and Sentinel, two skills which have a solid amount of damage reduction. They also have the best emergency skill out of the two - Hallowed Ground. Making them invulnerable to almost everything for 10 seconds. Sorry fellow WAR's, but Holmgang sucks.

The two-combo nature of WAR hurts as much as it helps in some cases. Since your DPS combo doesn't have aggro generation beyond the usual bonus granted by Defiance. That said, Warrior does at least have one DR skill which is on its own cooldown and doesn't deplete your wrath to activate called Vengeance. Also, bloodbath and overpower is a lot of fun to use.

As far as tanking goes, I think Paladin has a clear edge for most content. Warrior is still a very competent tank, but Paladin just has too much raw damage reduction to beat easily.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6ObniG4p_a...meme-5LvD.jpeg

Don't listen to anyone who tells you one is better than the other for whatever reasons. Both tanks, when in capable hands, are equally viable and totally capable for any situation. Take it from someone who specializes in tanking, there is no draw back to either tank. Paladin may have block, but since you can only either block or parry, never both at once, block causes a diminishing number of parries. It's the "Oh, I can also block" mind set of paladins that is misleading, as the number of times you block also decreases the number of times you will parry an attack, meaning that for Warriors, every point of parry is worth more benefit than a Paladin, since blocking an attack is calculated before parrying.

The toggle skills for both classes are not quite equal, with Warriors receiving approximately 3% less overall mitigation from theirs, a number that is easily made up for with proper cooldown usage and wrath useage.

I will say this much. I never recommend for someone who wants to tank to start with Warrior. I recommend beginning with Paladin, since even a bad Paladin amounts to a little bit of something, where a bad Warrior is sooo much worse. I consider Paladin to be a class that tanks should try to graduate first before beginning Warrior, especially since Flash and Convalescence are two must have skills. Paladin will teach you the basics of tanking: proper CD usage, positioning, AOE dodging, MP and TP balance, all things that you really should try to master before becoming a Warrior, especially the MP and TP usage. If you can understand that, you can actually be a warrior that doesn't beg for Army's Paeon or Goads. Learn how cooldowns interact with one another also. This can make a tremendous difference in survivability. Bloodbath, on the surface may seem straight forward, but it isn't. Try combining it with Vengence in a large mob pull. Convalescence + Second Wind. The cooldowns on a Warrior may not seem as strong as those on a Paladin, but they have a shorter cooldown than most of the ones Paladins use, and have more synchronization, allowing you to get more bang for your buck.

Many Paladin cooldowns actually have the opposite effect compared to Warrior cooldowns, due to their Shield Oath. The damage mitigation from Shield Oath is calculated first, followed by the mitigation from your cooldowns. This means that the true amount of damage you mitigate with a skill like Rampart compared to the initial amount of flat damage is actually less than 20%. It's only really 20% of the damage that has already been reduced by 20%. While it's still mitigation, it's still a case of diminishing returns. Compare that to Warriors, where their toggle buff is actually able to boost convalescence's effect. Sure, warrior only gets a 20% healing bonus from convalescence as opposed to Paladins getting a 30% boost. However, that 20% boost is actually closer to 24%, since the healing bonus from Defiance is calculated first, increasing the base healing that is then boosted again by Convalescence.

So, contrary to the post above me, the edge Paladin has is actually blunted by very very poor cooldown synchronization. About the only cooldowns that Paladins have that combines well is Bloodbath and Fight or Flight, and even that is nothing when compared to Warriors combining Bloodbath with such skills as Vengence, Unchained, and Berserk. Especially since the damage increase from Fight or Flight is actually stunted by Shield Oath, where Unchained completely negated the damage reduction from Defiance, then when combined with Berserk, increases damage output the full 50%. Coincidentally enough too, they both last 20 seconds, and Unchained has the same CD as Vengence, and Berserk has the same CD as Bloodbath. My normal cooldown usage for big trash pulls switches between Foresight, Convalescence+Second Wind, Awareness, on one, then Bloodbath+Vengence, 10 seconds into Bloodbath, Infuriate+Unchained (If I don't have full Wrath to begin with) and Berserk. By the time two large pulls are done, my first set of CDs are ready for use for a third pull, and I just switch back and forth.

Also, I am not a hypocrite. I followed my own advice and raised Paladin first. In fact, Paladin is my main class, and I have used it the most, and I know it the most. It is my most cherished class, and I only advanced into Warrior after mastering Paladin. I am still mastering Warrior myself, and still discovering its capabilities. I only recently realized how strong Bloodbath+Vengence is myself. I don't boast about Warrior's synchronization out of some biased love for Warriors, since I truly love Paladin more. I just simply recognize how strong Warrior really is in capable hands. Do not for a second consider one less than the other for any reason. The real difference between them is the player. Anyone who says one is better than the other simply doesn't know what they are talking about.

TLDR: Why not both?

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

The cooldowns on a Warrior may not seem as strong as those on a Paladin, but they have a shorter cooldown than most of the ones Paladins use

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A warrior 'cooldowns' consist of three major skills. Thrill of Battle, Bloodbath and Vengeance. The latter, a 30% DR skill actually has a longer recharge time than the equivalent Paladin skill, Rampart (90s for Rampart, 120s for Vengeance). Bloodbath is beneficial when tanking larger groups, but overall it's HP gain isn't making up much lost ground. ToB is essentially just a self-heal.

Unchained doesn't have any mitigation benefits, and Infuriate is just a means to regenerate wrath for GCD skills. Their other skills aren't really cooldowns since they're on the GCD and reliant on either Infuriate (such as Inner Beast) or mob HP (such as Mercy Stroke).

Other CDs are borrowed largely from Paladin and Monk. Let's also remember that Paladin has a permanent 20% DR from Shield Oath, so mitigation wise the PLD will always win. Further on the note of mitigation, Paladin can also mitigate damage dealt to party members by using Cover, giving it a significant edge over Warrior.

Warrior is not about preventing damage. It's about soaking it up and dishing it back out. It has a single DR skill (unless you count Holmgang, I don't since you'd need to be mostly dead before you'd see a benefit). Storms path would be a great skill if it was AoE, but since it's single target it's unwieldy to try and use it on trash.

I'm not saying it can't tank. Far from it. But from the perspective of a player, Paladin is simply better at it. It's a defender, and a protector. Warrior is just a meat shield with a big axe.

PLD more tanky, WAR faster aggro. So usually PLD is the better mt and war the better ot

http://memecrunch.com/meme/2IUYL/you-re-wrong/image.jpg

Let's go through the list here.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

A warrior 'cooldowns' consist of three major skills. Thrill of Battle, Bloodbath and Vengeance. The latter, a 30% DR skill actually has a longer recharge time than the equivalent Paladin skill, Rampart (90s for Rampart, 120s for Vengeance). Bloodbath is beneficial when tanking larger groups, but overall it's HP gain isn't making up much lost ground. ToB is essentially just a self-heal.

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You're missing Foresight in this list too, which has an equivalent CD as Rampart. Yes, it doesn't increase magic defense, but it also has the added benefit for scaling with your defense stat, meaning that its potency goes up as your stat increases. Rampart will always be a simple flat 20% damage reduction from damage you are taking. This means that its potency is calculated after your defense already reduces the damage, resulting in a diminishing return as defense increases. I would compare Vengeance more to Sentinel than Rampart, but for shits and giggles, let's compare it to both. Vengeance has a longer CD than Rampart, and a shorter duration, however, it also has a higher potency than Rampart (30%) so no, it's not an equivalent skill at all. Vengeance has a lower CD than Sentinel, and a lower Potency, but a longer Duration. The difference essentially is that neither Rampart nor Sentinel are actually significantly better than Vengeance. They really equal out with only minor differences between the skills. Vengeance is really more like the middle ground between Rampart and Sentinel. However, Vengeance has the added bonus of causing damage back to melee attackers. This is where Bloodbath comes in to make Vengeance shine above the rest. That damage caused by Vengeance also triggers Bloodbath, meaning that as you take melee damage, you also recover hp equal to 25% of the damage done by Vengeance. Then, we have Overpower for more AOE damage to recover more HP, then we have Steel Cyclone for even more AOE damage for even more HP recovery. Combine Unchained and Berserk with those AOE damaging skills under Bloodbath, and you have even more HP recovery, as the amount of HP you recover from Bloodbath is % based, not potency or flat. Also, you drastically underestimate the worth of Thrill of Battle. Again, effect is % based, so it scales higher with higher gear, and it even increases with Defiance, as the amount is based on your HP pool after Defiance. 20% hp on a 12k HP warrior is 2.4k, worth more than most cures.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Unchained doesn't have any mitigation benefits, and Infuriate is just a means to regenerate wrath for GCD skills. Their other skills aren't really cooldowns since they're on the GCD and reliant on either Infuriate (such as Inner Beast) or mob HP (such as Mercy Stroke).

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While not mitigating damage, HP recovery means less work on your healer to recover your hp. It means you are a more self sustaining system. Unchained and Berserk should not be used so liberally unless you are off tanking, and even then, they should be used in conjunction with skills like Bloodbath and Inner Beast for more bang.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Other CDs are borrowed largely from Paladin and Monk. Let's also remember that Paladin has a permanent 20% DR from Shield Oath, so mitigation wise the PLD will always win. Further on the note of mitigation, Paladin can also mitigate damage dealt to party members by using Cover, giving it a significant edge over Warrior.

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Paladin can mitigate Melee damage done to a party member, so the usage of Cover is very limited. While Holmgang won't mitigate damage to a party member, its capability to keep a mob on you, and away from your healer can not be ignored. Of the fights that come to mind, the Giant Bavarois in Wanderer's Palace is the most prevalent, as Cover and Holmgang here have the same desired effect. While Cover allows you to keep the target from taking damage from Flail, Holmgang will keep the boss from moving to the target, protecting them from Flail as well. I have also confirmed that this works. They both have varying degrees of application, of course, but in many cases, their effects are entirely similar. Also, to say that many of the CDs are drawn from cross class skills is like being a snotty kid saying "These are my toys and I don't like you playing with them". The fact is, Warriors take these cross class skills and can use them with other skills for better effect. (Convalescence+Second Wind, Second Wind if potency based, meaning it is effected by Convalescence. Convalescence is also boosted by Defiance) Also, that Shield Oath Paladins are so proud of is the central reason why their major cooldowns lose effectiveness. Stacking Damage Reduction skills results in loss of potency between the skills. It's a fundamental flaw. Defiance doesn't have this issue, and in fact, it has an opposite effect on skills such as Convalescence, increasing its effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Warrior is not about preventing damage. It's about soaking it up and dishing it back out. It has a single DR skill (unless you count Holmgang, I don't since you'd need to be mostly dead before you'd see a benefit). Storms path would be a great skill if it was AoE, but since it's single target it's unwieldy to try and use it on trash.

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Of course you wouldn't use Storm's Path on trash, to try to hit 9 or 10 mobs with it would be pointless. Warriors have plenty more much stronger and more potent cooldowns for this situation, which have quick recovery times. It's for boss fights. Paladin has Rage of Halone, sure, but Storm's Path is actually stronger, because instead of just 5% of strength, you're completely reducing the boss' damage out put by 10%. And no Warrior should have trouble with agro on a boss fight even throwing in Storm's Path in their rotation.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I'm not saying it can't tank. Far from it. But from the perspective of a player, Paladin is simply better at it. It's a defender, and a protector. Warrior is just a meat shield with a big axe.

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Neither class is actually better. Both have different capabilities which balance out. Paladin has Shield Oath, sure, but Shield Oath also causes many of its important cooldowns to become worth less. My biggest point was this. Warriors synergize much better than Paladins. None of their cooldowns or skills make any of their other cooldowns or skills weaker or worth less. Many of them infact make other cooldowns and skills worth exponentially more. Paladins on the other hand drastically fail in this concept, or fall short of what Warriors can do with these skills. Bloodbath is in fact, amazing, when used correctly. To knock it (as I have before in the past when I was a young, inexperienced Warrior) just shows a lack of understanding.

I'd like to add another thing. Warriors for the most part on boss battles try to stick to using their Wrath and Wrath generating skills on boss battles and try to save their big 'cooldowns' for large trash pulls where they will be most effective. Inner Beast is superb for reducing damage from big spike hits, and Storm's Path is excellent to keep up to both heal some damage and reduce the damage coming in.

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Originally Posted by DrOstler

PLD more tanky, WAR faster aggro. So usually PLD is the better mt and war the better ot

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Umm, no. Paladin generally gets placed in the MT role because as an OT, they bring very little worthwhile skills to the table compared to Warriors. As an OT warrior, keeping up Storm's Path and Storm's Eye (so Ninjas can focus more on straight out damage) is excellent. So Warriors get placed in the role of OT just because Paladins are lacking in that role, not because Paladins are simply better MTs. As an MT Warrior, keeping up Storm's Path for damage in reduction is excellent. In fact, to give a good comparison, Warriors are a lot like White Mages. In a majority of fights, having two White Mages is just fine, since their skills stack so well with one another, but having two scholars usually means one is constantly over writing the other's shields. With Warriors, having two in a fight causes no draw back in DPS and even has no draw back with survivability, and in fact, increases dps over a 1 Paladin, 1 Warrior set up. But a 2 Paladin party loses DPS without Storm's Eye. It is even easy to see how Warriors can bring the same durability to the table as a Paladin when MT. With a flat 10% damage reduction from the boss and a healing in increase of 20%, it's all too easy. If you want to get technical, sure, just using the toggle skills, Paladin's Shield Oath will always beat Defiance, but if a tank is just using their toggle skills, then they are a bad tank, no matter which class they are on. Warrior simply has more indepth and versatile combinations that work well together, where Paladins often lose effectiveness on their cooldowns because of Shield Oath.

Also, the whole Holmgang vs Hallowed Ground thing is pointless. If you come to the point where you must pop Hallowed Ground then chances are, things are screwing up. Holmgang in fact has more applications with a lower CD. Most notably is T10, where you can avoid having to tank swap when you are inflicted with Vuln Up by holmganging at the correct time for the Wild Charge. You can both eat the Charge and the Crackle Hiss with Vuln Up on you and still be sitting pretty. Word of advice for that situation, have Inner Beast ready as well as Convalescence and Second Wind combination and Thrill of Battle for after the Hiss to help with padding your HP for anything unforeseen and to keep your healers from having a heart attack.

Again, I love Paladin, it's my main, I'll never get rid of it or abandon it or tire of it, but I will also recognize its faults as well as the strengths of the other tank class, and ignorance towards either one's skills and capabilities is unbecoming of any tank.

Judging from your other threads, I highly suggest you leveling a healer or dps just to watch other people play tank and learn from the good ones.

From personal experience, I find WAR more fun than PLD, but as far as which is better? Impossible to say as they're very different in playstyle.

Both are able to effectively take anything equally, including endgame. They're balanced really well.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Both are able to effectively take anything equally, including endgame. They're balanced really well.

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Until you do double paladin for T11. That fite for aggro sob sob.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

Foresight

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A worthless ability. 5-6%~ lower damage against a boss chunking you for 4-6k a hit every minute and a half? k. You use it when you have nothing else, you don't rely on it. So basically we have Vengence/IB/Thrill (Doesn't even increase eHP much either) vs Sentinel/Rampart/Bulwark/Foresight(ha). That's fair.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

While not mitigating damage, HP recovery means less work on your healer to recover your hp.

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Your healer is not relying on your meager path/bloodbath skills to keep you alive against progression bosses. Cure/2 is still healing you for the thousands, self-heals or not. This is moot.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

Paladin can mitigate Melee damage done to a party member, so the usage of Cover is very limited. While Holmgang won't mitigate damage to a party member, its capability to keep a mob on you...

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Unless they are casters or are using an ability. Another moot point. Having to burn holmgang "to keep a mob on you" means you need to stop using it as a crutch (Which isn't even it's purpose) and get better at managing threat. Hollowed ground is an immunity with freedom of movement, Holmgang is a wannabe CD, no immunity, roots you, and heaven forbid if that mob is just out of range. It's flat out better.
Cover has way more utility in the form of heavy boss abilities such as MB on Titan EX.

Both tanks can do anything in the game, the difference is pretty small and it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. But to say PLD isn't better than WAR in that small gap (especially considering this argument has been done to death since the WAR rework back in 2.x) is just being ignorant to the numbers and the way the game works. There are few fights where IB is needed compared to the flat, passive (and using proper rotations in those CDs) reductions of PLD, most of the game is based around scripted heavy hits around the rotated cooldowns of PLD rather than the "Oh shit IB" of WAR. Plus they do way better OT damage as proven in this forum before.

Oh, and Ninja's bring slashing now. We can stop trying to argue that WAR using Eye is some kind of gamebreaking utility buff.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

A worthless ability. 5-6%~ lower damage against a boss chunking you for 4-6k a hit every minute and a half? k. You use it when you have nothing else, you don't rely on it. So basically we have Vengence/IB/Thrill (Doesn't even increase eHP much either) vs Sentinel/Rampart/Bulwark/Foresight(ha). That's fair.

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IDK where you're getting your calculations, but a 20% increase in your defense is not 5~6% reduction in damage. In fact the real reduction changes with gear, so already, you've popped a hole in your own statement. The more defense you have base, the higher the amount increased is.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Your healer is not relying on your meager path/bloodbath skills to keep you alive against progression bosses. Cure/2 is still healing you for the thousands, self-heals or not. This is moot.

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Did you not notice my point was against packs of mobs? No shit Bloodbath isn't going to do as much healing with only one target, never said it would.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Unless they are casters or are using an ability. Another moot point. Having to burn holmgang "to keep a mob on you" means you need to stop using it as a crutch (Which isn't even it's purpose) and get better at managing threat. Hollowed ground is an immunity with freedom of movement, Holmgang is a wannabe CD, no immunity, roots you, and heaven forbid if that mob is just out of range. It's flat out better.
Cover has way more utility in the form of heavy boss abilities such as MB on Titan EX.

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Didn't say I used it for threat, I said I used it for certain boss mechanics. Wild Charge + Crackle Hiss in T10, Giant Bavarois when he starts to chase down a party members for Flail. Of course Hallowed Ground is flat out better, never said it wasn't a great skill. However, compare it to the cooldown on Holmgang as well. I am usually able to eat four or five wild charges + Crackle Hiss in T10 because the cooldown is short enough. Each has their up sides and down sides, so saying that the skill is a wanna be CD shows you're ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Both tanks can do anything in the game, the difference is pretty small and it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. But to say PLD isn't better than WAR in that small gap (especially considering this argument has been done to death since the WAR rework back in 2.x) is just being ignorant to the numbers and the way the game works. There are few fights where IB is needed compared to the flat, passive (and using proper rotations in those CDs) reductions of PLD, most of the game is based around scripted heavy hits around the rotated cooldowns of PLD rather than the "Oh shit IB" of WAR. Plus they do way better OT damage as proven in this forum before.

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First, never said one was better than the other, but to assume that either is better is idiocy. Second, you'd have to be also an idiot to say IB is only needed in a few fights. Any and every fight in this game has a use for IB. IB isn't an oh shit button. It's on a GCD, making it something that should to be used on planned hits. If you're popping it just to throw it out there, then you're wasting it. For flat damage reduction which can be maintained on a boss, Storm's Path is great (10% damage reduction). And then on top of the 10% reduction in damage from Storm's Path, we also are getting 20% more HP from healing spells with Defiance. Both these aspects can be maintained through out a fight. Paladin gets 20% damage reduction, and can maintain a 5% strength reduction on the boss through the fight. So I ask, what's your point? Also, Storm's Path has a lot of strength behind it, since all the boss' damage is reduced by 10%, which includes magic damage as well, which I'd like to point out, Rage of Halone does not effect since it only lowers strength. It also means that Storm's Path reduces damage by 10% for the entire party, where Shield Oath only effects the Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Oh, and Ninja's bring slashing now. We can stop trying to argue that WAR using Eye is some kind of gamebreaking utility buff.

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Ninja brings a skill that Warrior has already, great. You obviously don't realize that Ninjas prefer it if the Warrior keeps up Storm's Eye instead, so that they can focus more on pure damage instead of having to keep up a debuff.

Also, all your quotes are snippets of what I said, leaving them lacking context. How about you actually read what I wrote instead of trying to make it seem like I am saying something that I'm not. Or maybe quote a point in its entirety instead of small bits.

In a way it's like choosing a heavy turtle with a sharp pointy object over a maniac with a big bloody axe. There's little difference beyond the sub job ability selection. With that in mind while both are about the same as tanks. They go about doing it differently as folks may have mentioned.

Here's a comparason

This was a good video I saw to help me under stand paladin agro better. It's a level 50 guide and may or not be a bit that outdated. It is still a good place to start.

This one is for lower level gladiators. Unfortunately I didn't see this one when I was learning the hard way.

Xeno's Paladin 2.38 (some notes on changes)

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Judging from your other threads, I highly suggest you leveling a healer or dps just to watch other people play tank and learn from the good ones.

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I'm willing to give tanking another go with pld, before leveling up a dps job, but thanks for the advice.

All these wrong and stupid comparisons.

Proper and any sensible comparisons on CD management for damage mitigation are as followed:
Defiance = Shield Oath
Inner Beast = Rampart
Vengeance = Sentinel
Vengeance+Inner Beast > Anything a PLD can do (besides Hallowed Ground)

When it comes to endgame tanking, people take PLD as MT because it takes less skill, less likely to screw up and lets WAR's keep up debuffs while doing full damage. But if a group really wanted to min/max on dps setups they would have a WAR MT and PLD OT because that's the most optimal dps for the two.

PLDs are better main tanks for their overall survivability. Shield Oath and the cooldowns make up for a better EHP. The PLD can also Stoneskin itself when needed.

WAR is generally a better off-tank. Warrior has better dps potential and also adds nice debuffs such as Storm's Eye and Path that help both the MT as the dps. War can also hold packs of mobs better with Overpower and Flashes; the PLD often has it hard keeping enmity on packs of mobs when they run low on mp.

On coils you ideally want to have both, at least on T13. On earlier coils a good group may run double warriors for increased damage and debuff uptime though.

At level 50 i find both equally fun and useful. But I got to admit, leveling a paladin was a pain in the rear. Warriors get good and easy to use quicker than paladin, defiance at 30 and overpower early as poop. I do however think you should level both up if you plan on tanking full time.
Just my thoughts on the matter.

In term of tanking potency, they are mostly the same.. However due to the nature of flash vers. overpower, paladin is harder to keep group enmity while warrior has it easier, but warrior has it harder tanking big hit due to the nature of obtaining 5 stacks wrath for inner beast while paladin's support is mostly off global cool down apart from stoneskin which usually fall to healer's doing..

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Originally Posted by Templeton_Leach

At level 50 i find both equally fun and useful. But I got to admit, leveling a paladin was a pain in the rear. Warriors get good and easy to use quicker than paladin, defiance at 30 and overpower early as poop. I do however think you should level both up if you plan on tanking full time.
Just my thoughts on the matter.

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I would definitely agree with this, 30-39 as a paladin was painful at times - Sword and Shield Oath could definitely do with being swapped around in what level they unlock to make the levelling experience a bit smoother.

They're both good, but it's situational. Are you planning on doing a lot of main tanking? PLD is (usually) superior. If you're planning on off-tanking or doing a lot of multiple-mob management, then WAR is the way to go. I'm biased, but as a career PLD I'd almost say our job is way easier than a WAR in general, since all we usually need to worry about is properly managing our defensive cooldowns (the bad PLDs will blow them all way too fast and not stagger them properly).

It's kind of fun as a personal challenge to see how you can try to up your DPS as a PLD while still maintaining good defense... toss on some STR accessories, go full 30 STR on your attributes if you're comfy, and definitely learn when to stance-dance.

I'm biased, but I hope Heavensward will re-introduce the 1.0 PLD skills we lost in ARR, mainly Sacred Oath (I think that was it's name) and Aegis boon.

Sacred Oath: Heals target giving the PLD a self heal of half the HP healed. EX: heal someone for 1000HP, get self-healed for 500HP.
Aegis Boon: 100% chance to block next attack, healing HP/MP for the value blocked (been so long, I forgot if AB heals HP or MP lol).

I wouldn't mind PLD getting more HP spells, like a stronger cure. That way, WARs can do more damage, but be more dependant on healers, whereas PLD do crap damage but they are more self-sufficient.

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Originally Posted by -DMR-

I'm willing to give tanking another go with pld, before leveling up a dps job, but thanks for the advice.

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Not asking you to quit tanking but to watch other people play tank, learn from them.
Hard to watch what other tanks do when you are the only tank in 4 man contents.

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Originally Posted by -DMR-

I'm willing to give tanking another go with pld, before leveling up a dps job, but thanks for the advice.

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Try tanking CT, ST, or WoD and watching the other tanks/asking for advice if needed, as someone just said. Or if you want even easier practice as a 50 tank with another tank you can watch with everyone being unsynced, try Praetorium and Castrum.

You may not be a perfect tank at them from the start (doubt you will be honestly, probably won't be for a while really as things get chaotic in raids at times and you seem inexperienced/nervous. There usually is less pressure on you though since there are 2 other tanks in raids, 5 other tanks for LoTA.), but as long as you're putting in effort, I'm sure people will appreciate you. Just let people know that you're newish. If they get mad if things don't go perfectly, that's on them.

I can't count the number of times I've seen ironworks/WoD geared tanks go into those, forget they're tanks, and just dps.

Your effort should be appreciated, and I can guarantee you will do a fine job compared to many more experienced and geared tanks that do what I just said. I know I'm personally much more patient with a newish/inexperienced/badly geared tank in there who is actually trying to tank than I am with experienced tanks who sit around and don't bother trying.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

IDK where you're getting your calculations, but a 20% increase in your defense is not 5~6% reduction in damage. In fact the real reduction changes with gear, so already, you've popped a hole in your own statement. The more defense you have base, the higher the amount increased is.

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You know that the defense stat scales like poop, right?
http://valk.dancing-mad.com/methodology/#PDEF

Defense on armor barely increases with ilvl too.
The difference between an ilvl 55 tank chest and an ilvl130 tank chest is 21 def.

Foresight as it is now, and in the foreseeable future, is a pretty trash skill that you pop when you have nothing better to pop.

It's ironic that paladins are maintanks while their dps is equal if not higher than warriors when as OT. My question is why people want PLD as MT and not warrior? Since warriors can maintain aggro easily - and can add Storms eye during their rotations as MT -> which increases the dps of Nin/PLD -> why not? True we have more defense buffs, however, warrior is a tank too with defense buffs that equals PLD when it comes to MT.

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Originally Posted by JimboTCB

I would definitely agree with this, 30-39 as a paladin was painful at times - Sword and Shield Oath could definitely do with being swapped around in what level they unlock to make the levelling experience a bit smoother.

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I found Paladin the easier of the two simply because their AoE aggro isn't positional. Trying to get a crowd of casters to group up for Overpower can be a nightmare, so I found myself relying on Flash in the end anyway. The other benefit of Flash is that you can cast it quickly while moving to dodge an AoE, for example. You can do the same for Overpower, but it's harder to aim properly if you're dodging.

Another side note is that overpower interrupts combos while Flash doesn't, so Flash is useful to have on both classes regardless since you might lose the odd mob to high DPS and need to quickly grab his attention.

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Originally Posted by Madepossible

My question is why people want PLD as MT and not warrior? ...
True we have more defense buffs, however, warrior is a tank too with defense buffs that equals PLD when it comes to MT.

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Hallowed Ground, simply put. As far as emergency skills go, it's a genuine life saver. Not merely for when you hit problems, but in general. Ten seconds of taking zero damage can be ten seconds of the most punishing damage dealing. As an example, it can reduce Titan's Mountain Buster to zero damage giving your healers some breathing room to heal party members from stomps.

If you know a big hit is coming, being able to cancel it out with one hundred percent DR is beyond powerful. Warrior just doesn't have anything close. Holmgang will save their life, but it won't save the healers much MP.