"Eureka, the Forbidden Land" thories [Crystal Tower SPOILERS]

(The entirety of this post operates on two assumptions: one, that the Crystal Tower storyline was intended to exist in complete isolation from the Main Scenario, except perhaps for some stand-alone sequel; and two, that the tower's future purpose, as described, is meant to be taken literally. Both are probatio diabolica.)

Also, unmarked spoilers for an old, out-of-print manga, but there's no way for me to discuss it if I [HB ] every spoiler, because what I've found is that the two stories overlap (and contradict) in a very interesting way.


I remembered something. Dangerous word choice, considering the topic, but I finally realized exactly what it was about that final scene (in the quest “The Light of Hope”) that set off the warning bells in my head and told me that everything about it was just plain wrong. Turns out there's a certain famous manga, by a certain internationally acclaimed Japanese animator, cited by Sakaguchi himself as influencing the Final Fantasy series, that covered a lot of the same ground. Too much, in my mind, to be entirely coincidental.

[Stop reading now if you know the manga I'm talking about and intend to read it any time soon. Sorry for your time.]

A highly advanced ancient civilization, responsible for destroying the world with their technology, sets in motion a plan, that the people of the future might use that same knowledge to rebuild the world when the time is right. After a thousand years, the sole remaining “light” in the “darkness” of the destroyed world is a vast repository of all the technology needed to create a peaceful new future for all of humanity. The avatar of said repository asks our protagonist, at the end of her journey, to become the guardian of this “light of hope” and see its vast knowledge put to use for the good of all mankind.

Naturally, she destroys it.

Wait, what?

Turns out, this ancient civilization, which was not above the use of artificially-created humanoids to do its dirty work, wanted very strongly to create a world with none of the despair and suffering of the old world, and had all of the tech ready to do just that. To create a new dawn for a peaceful new humanity, at the cost of all the things that, to our red-haired, red-eyed protagonist, allow us to experience life in the first place.


Not quite there yet?


“Oh, but the Crystal Tower is different: it only destroyed the world because it was misused. Surely there's nothing wrong with using it if we use it correctly, right?“

In spite of the overwhelming similarities in word choice between the two, I probably would not have thought to make a direct connection if not for one curious bit of dialogue from Unei:

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In that glorious age, the Crystal Tower stood tall as the symbol of Allagan pride. Parents took their children there, that they might learn how the nigh limitless energy it produced brought prosperity to the whole empire.
That prosperity, however, bred decadence, and the empire began to show signs of stagnation. This decline was made all the more rapid for want of strong leadership.
In a matter of generations, the Allagan civilization became a pale shadow of its former self. Its once gleaming cities fell into disrepair, and its frontier lands were given over to the wilderness.

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It seems like it should be a pretty big philosophical point, but while it should be a key part of the larger problem of what the tower represents, it's simply never mentioned again. If it represented hope to the people of Allag, it was their reliance on that same hope that started their decline, not Amon, Xande, or Dalamud.

Is this light of hope really something that must be given back to humanity? Can the tower still represent hope if the full extent of its capabilities cannot be relied on without repeating the downfall of Allag?

It's a complicated question with no easy answer, if we are to take G'raha's intent at face value and assume he hasn't jumped the gun at all in his interpretation of his ancestors' wish. The entire thing could easily be written off later as a metaphor for some simpler purpose, possibly even awakening G'raha himself as a beacon of hope. What follows are my thoughts in the event that it won't:

Ultimately, what struck me is exactly how close the Tower's current state now, with G'raha inside, is to the Crypt of Shuwa. For those who have kept up this far, the manga I'm referring to is Hayao Miyazaki's Nausicaä of the Valley of Wind, and while the entire seven-volume story is about clinging to hope in a world on the brink of ruin, when presented with a chance to guarantee world peace and a bright future for the whole of humanity, Nausicaa destroys it, choosing a future where the humans of today follow their own path to the end, even if that end is extinction.

It's a pretty powerful message, and this plot has been referenced in Final Fantasy before, most directly with Gaia and Terra in Final Fantasy IX. I don't think it would be a stretch to think it influenced the writers, even subconsciously.


All this lead me to a “what if?”:

We already know that the Allagans were not above the literal use of crushed dreams as a power source (as in, Dalamud), and while the Doga and Unei we met seemed to sacrifice their lives willingly, they were, essentially, clones not given a chance to define their own identities as separate from their originals. And what of G'raha Tia, who was living his own life in search of the truth behind a trait that gave him a pretty hard time as a kid, until the “wish” passed on in his blood awakened and required him to give up his place in the world he grew up in to fulfill it?

What if, whatever secrets lie within the “Forbidden Land” beneath the Crystal Tower become the tipping point in a conflict that has been teased but has yet to properly play out? What if Eureka, not Syrcus Tower, is the place where Cid will finally come to his own answer as to whether or not he should be working towards a future where mankind lives like the Allagans, or towards a different future entirely?

I may be totally grasping at straws, or it could be that the groundwork has been laid and we're simply waiting for the real payoff. Thoughts?

Tl;dr: It was possible to send a message about hope, in very similar circumstances, without ending it they way they did, so with the presence of Eureka teased by that certain cutscene, is there some deeper reason that they didn't?

Four "Like!"s tells me that not everyone thinks I'm crazy, at least. Which is a shame, actually, because I was hoping someone besides me would have some useful insight. Considering 2.55 treated us to FFXIV's new and improved stance on ambitious optimism (poor Alphinaud), the above is simply one highly probable question out of many I can see being raised in some future storyline involving Cid and more Allagan tech.

But that the entire thing simply happened as a way for the Allagans to "redeem" themselves, and G'raha Tia was simply a one-off legendary Pokemon who showed up to teach us about the responsible use of ancient doomsday machines and our role in shaping the future of humanity, seems to be an understanding that works for most people, so I dunno.

I also get the feeling that this is simply the one subject that nobody wants to play ball with me on, which may or may not be entirely my fault for having such strong convictions. /sigh

frankly, I don't understand what your asking. It got all rambly and referred to stuff I haven't read or watched, though I have heard of the series. The tower was sealed because it contained things that were deemed unsafe. The parallels to Valley of the Wind, if I understand correctly, don't really line up. Few people saw the Tower as the hope, it's an archeology interest. None of the city states seem that concerned, the world isn't on the brink of ruin, and we know that the garleans have been using thier own stores of Allagan lore for years, as told in the Fall of the White Raven.

As for hope, wel, the WoL is the hope of a lot of people, now, I guess.

That's just it, we didn't just seal it away, we sealed it with someone (arguably possessed) inside so that, in spite of the dangers, it could be used to power the entire world again, and become a symbol of hope like it was for the Allagans. Even though that was established before as having had really serious consequences the first time. The conditions for use were even given as "when mankind has reached the same heights as the Allagans." The notion of history repeating itself comes to mind.

Again, it's a totally crack theory, and comparing one story to another is really not the best way to go about analysis, but it was a useful lens to look through as I dug around. Their purpose served, I'll drop the comparisons from here on.


As it stands, the urgency of G'raha's action is weakened considerably by not establishing what it would cost Eorzea if he didn't seal himself inside, and just made the tower itself sleep permanently. We can't use it now either way, and there's only so much good it can do in a society as advanced as the people who built it in the first place. "Hope" can also exist just fine without it, as the WoL proves daily.

Assuming conservation of detail hasn't been thrown out the window, (I want to believe it hasn't) there are two paths I can see:

1) There's some other way to use it, and G'raha's waiting for someone who understands that other way, because it could have dire consequences if not used at that specific time. The tower is used as a one-off plot device later, for something, avoiding the issues of long-term dependence touched on before.

2) The writers use whatever unwritten story they have planned for the "forbidden land" to properly explore what it would mean to model Eorzea's future after the Allagan Empire. Eureka houses the Allagan Empire's dirty little secret, and learning that secret changes Cid's mind about a lot of things, including the Crystal Tower itself. Drama ensues.

They said that if they did Erureka, it would come after 3.0 launch if at all.

I don't know if the writers ever planned to use Eureka as a part of the Crystal Tower storyline. The Forbidden Land was never even mentioned as a part of the quest chain. I'm kind of sad they didn't, but it's not a huge deal.

I earnestly don't know what you're referencing, otherwise I might be more inclined to debate this with you.

As for finding "another way" to use the Crystal Tower, I don't know if there is one. It's stated it was used to gather solar energy (from Dalamud), but to what end? It's basically a highly advanced solar power station, nothing more as far as we know. G'raha sealed himself inside it so it would still be useful when people were able to harness its power without abuse as the Allagans did... but we know that's more than likely not going to happen during the course of our Warrior of Light's story.

On the other hand, the history of Eorzea (and greater Hydaelyn) is cyclical, going through Astral and Umbral eras. Someone is always going to get power-hungry and some calamity is going to cause an Umbral Era eventually. Just like the ending of both Dark Souls games, the choice (or rather, thinking you can break the cycle) is an illusion - what you do doesn't really matter, because the cycle of history and Astral and Umbral Eras will continue to spin regardless. You might be able to forestall it, but there's no preventing an Umbral Era from coming.

As far as I can tell as well, the Crystal Tower was meant to be a mostly self-contained storyline. Nothing has lasting implications for the main storyline except Nero casting aside his obsession with outshining Cid and possibly becoming more heroic.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Forbidden Land was never even mentioned as a part of the quest chain.

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Not by name, but if you follow what Nero's scanner was meant to find.... Its pretty obvious.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Not by name, but if you follow what Nero's scanner was meant to find.... Its pretty obvious.

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I don't know... the spatial relationship between Syrcus Tower and Eureka was never given in FF III. Not that I remember, but it's been a few years since I played it. Either way we'd need access to the foyer of Syrcus Tower to get to Eureka, and we don't have that... because G'raha sealed it up.

That's all assuming XIV's Syrcus Tower is identical to III's... which it mostly is aside from lore bits (which are adaptations from III to fit XIV's world), so I'm assuming this holds true as well.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I don't know... the spatial relationship between Syrcus Tower and Eureka was never given in FF III. Not that I remember, but it's been a few years since I played it. Either way we'd need access to the foyer of Syrcus Tower to get to Eureka, and we don't have that... because G'raha sealed it up.

That's all assuming XIV's Syrcus Tower is identical to III's... which it mostly is aside from lore bits (which are adaptations from III to fit XIV's world), so I'm assuming this holds true as well.

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FF3 Spatial relationship: you go to the door adjacent to the main entrance, go downstairs, BAM, Eureka.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

FF3 Spatial relationship: you go to the door adjacent to the main entrance, go downstairs, BAM, Eureka.

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Ah. It was a teleporter in the DS version if I remember right, which is the only version I played. My bad.

Either way we'd still need access to the interior of Syrcus Tower, which is sealed off. Still, something to maybe look forward to(?).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Either way we'd still need access to the interior of Syrcus Tower, which is sealed off. Still, something to maybe look forward to(?).

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As an additional point of reference, pulling a stinger like they did after a "we may never meet again" ending, only to end up ignoring that person, is appallingly bad form. Rather, I don't think it's ever been done. Even if they ultimately subvert it (looking at you, Digimon Tamers), it's still a possibility that needs to be addressed.

Again, for the entire run of FFXIV it will be impossible to prove that CT is an isolated story, but all-too-easy to disprove. I personally would like to believe that the last prince of Allag is too important a character to be simply written off for a message about hope (especially one that contradicts XIV's other messages on hope rather spectacularly), seeing as there's still so much Allag left to deal with.

It's also a point worth mentioning that Desch, the character G'raha was loosely modeled after, did seal himself in a tower because of his destiny (and presumably died), but was later let out by the ghosts of Doga and Unei so he could continue to help the Warriors of Light. So completely cheapening that sacrifice would actually be entirely appropriate FFIII fanservice, and could even be the real way for the tower to be a "beacon of hope."

I'm not expecting any sort of continuation any time soon, just felt like sharing my (completely batshit) findings while they were still relatively fresh.

Speaking of the FF3 Manga, did you think the Tank Body from World of Darkness is a revamp of the armor the main character wears from the Manga, Yuukyuu no Kaze Densetsu: Final Fantasy III Yori ? (much like the monk AF2 is a revamp of Yang's gear from FF4) Although a lot of things were changed from the orginal design, the Red Scarf, Shoulder pads and the chest "belt" remained.

http://i.imgur.com/aSZVBhn.jpg

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...er_Warrior.jpg

I'm afraid I don't see the resemblance.

I realized I never properly answered you on this:

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Originally Posted by Cilia

As for finding "another way" to use the Crystal Tower, I don't know if there is one. It's stated it was used to gather solar energy (from Dalamud), but to what end? It's basically a highly advanced solar power station, nothing more as far as we know.

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The energy channeled by the Crystal Tower is, at least in part, aetheric in nature (not unlike Ceruleum), as evidenced by multiple references of it being used to power "magic". Dalamud itself was an add-on built generations after the main tower was completed, in order to expand its generative capacity.

Using it as a green-energy alternative in the distant future is certainly possible, but we also need to remember that G'raha is not only the last living person capable of controlling the tower, but his ability to do so is on a very short timer. Whatever he does with it, he won't have control for very long. The "magic" G'raha used to freeze the tower in time was powered by the tower itself, so that's already evidence of a broader spectrum of uses than as a simple oversize battery. Anything past those established facts is ultimately guesswork, but long-term use doesn't sound too viable to me under those conditions, not to mention what I've brought up before about its consequences.

As for being a "beacon of hope"? The solar power station near my house is certainly neat, but it's not exactly a universal symbol of hope for all mankind. Also, every single other use of the phrase "beacon of hope" in the entire game has been to describe a person, not a thing. G'raha himself was called the "light of hope" a scant few minutes before he decided that the "light of hope" was the tower itself, but memories are funny things.

It is also certainly possible that we've left the tower in a state where it can be used in some future era as a light to combat some future great tide of darkness, ensuring that our actions in the present have a profound effect on the course of eras to come, but for all the pretensions in this game's lore about the cycle of eras, this is still a Final Fantasy game. Breaking cycles is kind of how Final Fantasy operates (as far back as FF1).

If a point comes where the choice is between "use this artifact that could maybe ambiguously be dangerous if misused" and "let the world be consumed by darkness," the choice is pretty obvious to me. It would be breaking tradition to try and avoid it.

Don't take it the wrong way, but I think you might be reading a bit much into this.

The Crystal Tower itself can't generate aether. I don't know if anything can. It might be able to augment the conversion of aether into effects in the same way more powerful gear boosts a Black Mage's damage output, but I don't know if it's possible for the tower to actually generate aether. Heck, even calling it a power generator is inaccurate; if it can generate aether, it's simply a converter from solar to aetheric energy. It's kind of similar to how magitek simply converts aether into electricity or fire; the Crystal Tower just does that, simply with solar energy and on a MUCH larger scale and with greater efficiency.

It was my understanding that G'raha put himself into stasis, much like Xande and the Doga / Unei clones, until people are able to open the Crystal Tower on their own. Presumably this would mean having tech as advanced as the ancient Allagans, and while Garlond Ironworks and the Garleans have some impressive stuff, it's still a far cry from Allagan tech. G'raha putting himself into stasis serves the long-time dilemma of the question as to what happens when he dies - he simply won't, so until people are truly capable of harnessing the Crystal Tower's capabilities (by replicating its tech, f'ex) nobody can enter or misuse it. That's also what I believe he meant when he called it a "beacon of hope;" it's something to work towards, something to aspire to (and, for the Warrior of Light and NOAH, a promise to keep).

This is rather off topic, but to break it down breaking the cycle of Astral and Umbral Eras (Eternal Recurrence, or "All of this has already happened and will happen again") will probably require killing both Hydaelyn and Zodiark, or otherwise the merging of them into one being. Light cannot exist without Dark or vice versa; if you destroy one (Zodiark) causality dictates the other (Hydaelyn) must fade as well. XIV's pretty idealistic, but in the wake of 2.5.5 I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. Twelve Paragons, twelve Archons... the cycle goes on eternally because neither can be stamped out forever. All of this has already happened and will happen again - the Archons give up their lives to kill the Paragons or vice versa, and whichever god has the most chosen servants left "wins." The Astral or Umbral Era goes on until the opposing god's servants grow strong enough to tip the scales in the other direction, and the samsara goes on.

But all of this has already happened - even if you try to do so, Zodiark cannot be truly destroyed since HE EXISTS BECAUSE OF HYDAELYN (and, by extension, YOU). So breaking the cycle means doing exactly what Middy says - rejecting your status as Hydaelyn's "pawn" and becoming "master of thy own fate." It means shaking off the shackles of the Goddess to truly write your own story, not simply continue the cycle of Astral and Umbral Eras.

The key, I think, is knowing what the world was like before and what truly caused the First Umbral Era... but that's been lost to the mists of time...

Well, whatever. Enough off-topic rambling.

My only real point about the cycle of eras is that the tower is still a massive unfired Chekhov's Gun. Seeing it left to later eras would be kind of a waste, but I'm trying to believe that the powers-that-be know that but are still working out the specifics. Moving back on topic...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Don't take it the wrong way, but I think you might be reading a bit much into this.

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Really? The thought had never occurred to me. :o

Reading too much into things and showing legitimate interest, even attempting to explain the validity of truly insane arguments, is how we show we care. Really, truly reading too much into things would be me explaining in detail how the entire thing can also work as a metaphor for suicide, but I'll spare you that one.

My prior arguments, for better or worse, are not completely insane. I've actually gone over the relevant event scripts in both English and Japanese (thank the Midgardsormr affair for that inspiration) to clarify the meaning on some of the more... embellished... points in the English. Aside from a few disconcerting added references to blood in relation to what G'raha "must do," and the astounding localization of "this time for sure" as "once more," the broad strokes basically check out. He intends to make the Tower ready for later use, with the specifics left pretty wide open (except that it's the destination, not the journey, that ultimately concerns him), and our expectation of "when" is left simply at "the future."

Of course you're supposed to think it could be left at that, because that's how that sort of ending works: a neat tidy resolution to most established plot points, but with a few final moments meant to show that it might not end there. It's how a season generally ends when a show isn't sure it'll be picked up for another. Considering the entire story was plotted out before the staff knew they'd be getting to do an expansion pack, that all makes perfect sense.

I understand pretty well what I was supposed to feel about that ending, but for a bunch of reasons I've already gone over, it failed to get me there. I'm not even remotely alone on that, either. Not to mention there were a lot of people who enjoyed it just fine, got the message well enough, but still ultimately came away from it expecting G'raha to show up again later, because otherwise why would the devs even bother?

So I choose to cling to the other sort of hope: the hope that it's not quite over yet. The belief is already there, as well as at least one deliberate clue, and the last major story update shot down a lot of previously untouchable claims about how FFXIV will handle its storytelling, so anything goes.

(If you choose to bow out after this, go ahead. I did appreciate having someone to bounce ideas off of, though, so thank you.)

Eureka seems like a good candidate to play a role in the new relic weapon questlines.

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Originally Posted by Torquil

Eureka seems like a good candidate to play a role in the new relic weapon questlines.

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I prefer to look at it a different way.

Eureka in Final Fantasy III was where the ultimate weapons were stored by the civilization that built Crystal Tower. That's where we're getting the idea for Relics to be there, but lets put a different spin on it;

In Final Fantasy XIV, Eureka is where the Allagan Civilization stored its Ultima Weapons. Ruby Weapon, Diamond Weapon, etc., all slumbering beneath. Ultima and Omega being elsewhere because reasons.

If they're all powered in a similar fashion to Ultima Weapon (taking from the Ophiuchus constellation), that could make for an interesting tie in to the main scenario as well...

@Nalien: Your Eureka theory uses the sort of depraved fanfic logic that I absolutely adore, so I hope the devs are taking notes.

I don't have much to say myself, so I'm going to drop a few pictures to get started:

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...a_Entrance.png

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...a_Entrance.png

http://i.imgur.com/dSDgk43.png

Somebody ask for a teleporter? The one in front of CT actually... doesn't look that much like the mirror used to enter Eureka in FFIII (there goes that theory), so while we may use it to access Eureka, the true entrance is likely still inside the tower proper.


Also, while on the FF Wiki page on Eureka, I noted what it said about the Eureka Key. In FFIII, it was given to the heroes by Doga and Unei in much the same way that they gave their blood to G'raha in the World of Darkness quest (same "body may perish" line, too). Doga had to travel to another world in order to find it, so if they try to stick to that at all, our favorite little Allagan clones could end up popping out of the Void somewhere with a very interesting key. That, or the Eureka Key is G'raha himself, and we (or they, or Koh "Archmagus Ex Machina" Rabntah) will need to release him from the tower in order to gain access. See above notes on Desch for how that works.

We've gotten a lot of "destiny" from the Crystal Tower storyline, but have yet to touch on "the power to change destiny," which was also pretty important to Final Fantasy III. Just a final something to think about.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

We've gotten a lot of "destiny" from the Crystal Tower storyline, but have yet to touch on "the power to change destiny," which was also pretty important to Final Fantasy III. Just a final something to think about.

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The thing is, I don't know if changing destiny is a good thing. In III, Xande was the villain for challenging his fate. Similarly, the problems that arose from XIV's Xande could be said to be the result of cheating fate - had he not been resurrected, the contract with the Cloud of Darkness probably wouldn't have been made and the entire Crystal Tower conflict would be nonexistent. The Allagans also resurrected Xande to stave off or stop the decline the Allagan Empire - a stratagem which clearly did not work. It's only when people discover and follow their destiny - the Onion Kids in III and G'raha in XIV - that the problems are resolved.

At the same time, merely accepting destiny seems to perpetuate the cycle of history, both in III and XIV. The Cloud of Darkness isn't destroyed in III, simply banished back to the void; while the cycle of Astral and Umbral Eras has been going on for the entirety of recorded history in XIV without a clear way to end it, and it's implied the same destined souls carry out the gods' conflict over and over as the wheel of fate turns. While this isn't Dark Souls II, I think this quote has some significance:

Emerald Herald: "Are you the next monarch? Or merely... a pawn of fate?"

Compare to Midgardsormr's question after you first tell the Scions you've lost your blessing:

Midgardsormr: "Art thou a pawn, or master of thy fate?"

It's the same question: "Are you here, doing what you're doing, because you choose to be or because you're forced to be?" Are you really the Warrior of Light or just a puppet? If you choose to be the Warrior of Light are you accepting the shackles of fate (and Hydaelyn)? What would it cost to deny fate and break the cycle of Eras? More importantly, can the cycle be broken at all?

Did G'raha (ostensibly) fight through the Crystal Tower with you because he was fated to, or because he chose to? If he chose to, did he fall into fate's flow?

Tough questions man, tough questions. Still, now that I know Eureka is underneath the Crystal Tower I look forward to it maybe being added in 3.x. I get the feeling we'll get some answers about our fates in 3.x anyway, given Elidibus called Urianger to talk to him about that specific subject.

As a side note, I still don't see the Crystal Tower being tied into the main storyline, if only because it'll largely be ignored due to the effort required to go through it and once 3.0 hits nobody will want to run it. They'll probably have NOAH NPCs greet us more warmly if we did complete CT assuming Eureka is added, but I don't see either being tied into the Main Scenario.

But that's just it: G'raha's destiny isn't to seal himself inside the tower and bring "the light of hope" to the future. That's just his vague interpretation of Salina's wish, and probably brought on by his feelings of powerlessness after the World of Darkness, prompting him to invoke his own Heroic Sacrifice as the only way he thinks he can even the score.

Unlike Desch's destined sacrifice, the urgency is an entirely artificial construct. The "danger" of the tower is completely undefined, since the Calamity itself was caused by a glitch in the Dalamud uplink, and the value of the "light" it can provide is never weighed against G'raha's own value as a human being to the people of today. Pardon me for thinking that the Encyclopedia Allaganica in his head (not to mention his own skills and knowledge) can be worth far more than cheap, clean solar 1000 years from now. But, again, G'raha simply forced the situation for reasons unknown.

Now let's look at Desch. He thought he was destined to die repairing the Tower of Owen to keep the Floating Continent from crashing, and said his final farewells to the party before throwing himself in the reactor. In reality, not only did it not prove fatal, his willingness to sacrifice himself was proof that he bears a soul of light, and because of that he was still needed as one of the five who could save the Onion Kids from Xande's trap in the Crystal Tower, one which was "destined" to succeed. Sounds like a pretty big difference between his perceived destiny and his true destiny.

For the FFXIV edition: think Archons. Aside from the keyest-of-key MS NPCs, G'raha is the only character to bear the marks of the Scions; a fact that has yet to be touched upon in any NPC dialogue, but with what we know shouldn't be a complete accident. Shouldn't. We still have no idea what those marks really mean either way, so while G'raha seems like a simple red herring for now, the coin is still in the air.

But "destiny" is merely the name characters in a story give to the almighty will of the authors who shape their world. There's a certain amount of hubris to playing along with what you think your destiny is, versus simply following your own chosen path and letting the world sort itself out. Rebelling against destiny is also a way of following along with it, and that G'raha at present is a fairly apt double for Serah Farron is perhaps a sign that we're going to end up with more of the latter.


(Also, while I don't like bringing it up, the devs can, at any time, make CT into a requirement for future quests, not unlike what happened with the Sunken Temple of Qarn in 2.1. It would be a long content gate, but up until now they've shown a commitment to keeping "old" casual content from becoming "obsolete" content. It's possible for it to become a gate, and also just as possible, with timeline conceits in place, that we see a continuation in the Main Scenario that simply assumes you've done it before then (looking at you, Estinien). We have no way of knowing either way until it happens, so there's no point in using "optional" as the sole crutch of an argument.)

Though G'raha doesn't give any specifics, I think his assessment that the tower was too dangerous to be left open was fair; aside from the Garleans who we know can and will abuse any advantage, the Monetarists could have easily used it as a clean power source for Omega if they were able to get the thing excavated and operational. Neither are pressing matters, but someone will always find a way to abuse power, whether that way is currently known and pertinent or otherwise. Sealing Syrcus Tower was a preemptive measure to prevent such abuse.

While this might just be G'raha's interpretation of Salina's vague wish, that vague wish was... vague. He did the best he could. He also states after receiving Doga and Unei's blood that he now "knows his purpose," or something to that effect... Allagan blood must be magic or something. Need to rewatch the cutscenes for the exact lines, too busy to do that right now.

Desch not being dead after his supposed Heroic Sacrifice in the Tower of Owen was a deus ex machina. Nothing said he wasn't dead until Doga's spirit found him to break the Curse of the Five Wyrms. I also don't recall Xande stating the curse was "destined" to succeed; only that breaking it was (supposedly) impossible. Been a while. Either way, Desch still met his "true" destiny by repairing the Tower of Owen - it just turns out doing so didn't involve dying and he had a little more to do he didn't know about. Destiny didn't change, he just didn't see the whole picture. It's possible this is true of G'raha as well, but we might never know.

While the tattoo exhibited by G'raha is also worn by many of the Scions, it's not worn by all of them, and there have been characters introduced from outside the Scions who bear it. Neither Minfilia nor Tataru are shown to have it, and in addition to G'raha there's another NPC from outside the Scions who exhibits it: Moenbryda. It's not explicitly stated, but from this information it can be inferred that the tattoo(s) are a mark of the Students of Baldesion; all of the Scions who bear the tattoos come from Sharlayan, as well as Moenbryda, and all of the Scions not from Sharlayan (you, Minfilia, Tataru, and Yugiri) don't have it. While I don't remember if G'raha ever stated where he was from, from the clues (the tattoo) and Rammbroes' words (that he's only supposed to be an "observer" in regards to Crystal Tower storyline) I assume he's one of the Students of Baldesion, and that's all the tattoos signify. Could be wrong.

Destiny is a fickle thing, especially in video games. Either way, some Final Fantasies paint following destiny as a good thing (III, VIII), while others suggest breaking fate's shackles and paving your own way is the "correct" option (I, IX, XIII for starters). Even some of the villains seem conflicted on the issue; Sephiroth starts his genocidal plan because it's his "destiny" as the "chosen one," while Ultimecia is doing everything in her power to change her fate but is doomed to fail. Neither way seems more prone to being "good" than the other.

CT would be a nearly-impassable content gate; 2.x is already going to be enough for new players. Something like Qarn is pretty small potatoes; go to this place, talk to this guy, and run this dungeon. CT requires a quest chain, 4 tough FATEs, and then doing 3 24-man instances, none of which (aside from the quest chain) can be done solo and most players probably won't care about once 3.0 hits. Running a half-hour dungeon, doing a long quest chain with FATEs and then corralling 24 players into working together for a few hours (already a chore in LoA, stop killing the Bone Dragon before all the Platinals are dead you idiots)... hmm...

Actually not all the Scions whit the tattoo come from Sharlayan. Thancred we know comes originally from Limsa Lominsa. I suspect the mark is more a link to a particular training or group as all the Scions with the mark were members of the Circle of Knowing. Minfilia founded the Path of the Twelve and I don't think was actually part of the Circle of Knowing. The Scions of the Seventh Dawn was born out of the merging of the two groups after the calamity.

While Thancred has been stated to be "from" Limsa, we don't know if he was actually born there, or if that was just where he was stationed as a member of the Circle before he went to Ul'dah and Y'shtola took his place in Limsa. It's also possible he was born in Limsa, moved to Sharlayan and became a member of the Circle, and then was stationed in Ul'dah.

What we do know however is that some Scions have the tattoos, some don't; some people outside the Scions (neé the Circle of Knowing) also have the tattoos, though most don't. The fact there are people outside the Scions with the tattoos suggests it's not emblematic of their organization, though.

The point is, the tattoos don't necessarily signify key Main Scenario NPCs. G'raha probably just had them because he was probably a Student of Baldesion like the former members of the Circle of Knowing; it doesn't mean he is, or ever will be, a key player in the Main Scenario.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

CT would be a nearly-impassable content gate;

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Except that they've already announced plans to reduce the party-size requirement for CT down to 8-man, and confirmed that the CT raids will be be added to the Challenge Log in the expansion. That doesn't sound like something they'd do for content that was intended to become obsolete. If anything, it sounds to me like they have a specific reason to want to keep it relevant. I could even see them requiring it for 3.0's new relics, if they're connected to Eureka at all.

Anyway...

G'raha is from the Students of Baldesion, but pretty much anything we can say about these tattoos themselves for the moment is pure speculation, because all of the possible interpretations still leave contradictions. His very existence can either prove or disprove the significance of those marks, depending on what happens going forward. We could start running into a bunch of people with the same neck tats and emblem, writing him off ex post facto as actually never a big deal, or we could find out that there is an actual link between him and the others. Whatever happens to G'raha himself, there is more to his story than what we've seen, and the only question is exactly how much.

On the current state of the ending, though, the idea that sealing the tower and simply waiting for mankind to be ready would already have been patronizing and dogmatic enough without the Christ-like symbolism, but the fact that our technological worthiness is the key to bringing about the Second Coming of G'raha and his beacon of hope for all mankind is more than a little ridiculous (and ironic, not to mention offensive) as a stand-alone ending. Before 2.5 hit, Yoshida himself was very noncommittal in how he described the ending to CT. They've basically thrown a bunch of really complex issues and potential plot points into the air and stopped the entire thing in time without allowing any sort conclusion to be reached. It's a decent season finale, but not a proper ending.

If anything, leaving him confirmed as alive, but with a specific way to release him, is a way of not making his eventual return a deus ex machina, by leaving an established possibility that he could. There are plenty of people out there who already believe it's pretty much guaranteed to happen, sooner or later. If a key NPC from a Job quest can become an important character in an expansion storyline, why not the last prince of Allag?

Thancred was a member of the Rogue's guild prior to him being recruited by Louisoix. So, if he was born in Limsa Lominsa or not doesn't matter because we know he was in Limsa before he joined the Scions/Sharlayans.

Y'sholta is also most likely Gridania born considering she's a conjurer and their are three other Y clan Miqo'te located in Gridania (maybe more I never checked). Papalymo having connections in the Thamuturges (as well as being a THM) imply he's Ul'dahn, and I'd wager that Yda is too. Though I do admit we don't have any basis in Yda's case to believe she's from anywhere in Eorzea.

Also, it doesn't make sense for Louisoix to recruit non-eorzeans to save eorzea especially when factoring in Alphinaud's father's reluctance to help out Eorzea in Tales from the Calamity.

Reducing the size to 8-man and adding it to the Challenge Log is probably just their way to provide incentive for still running the Crystal Tower instances, as well as a way to make sure people who do want to run them (for novelty's sake, to gear up a new class, to get Crystal Tower gear for glamours, or for nostalgia) don't have to wait an eternity to do it. Assuming they add Eureka or make the 3.x 24-man a sequel to the Crystal Tower this also helps new players get through it...

Either way you're right, there isn't enough information to definitively say what G'raha's tattoos mean. He clearly has connections to the Students of Baldesion, but beyond that we can't say much. We do know that there are people outside the former Circle of Knowing that have them, though, so stating his tattoos mark him as an important Main Scenario NPC is jumping to a conclusion.

While some people might be dissatisfied with the CT ending's vagaries, leaving things up to the players is not uncommon in JRPGs. Remember the ending to VII where people had no idea what the final outcome was until Advent Children cleared things up? Besides, I'm rather fine with them leaving a window for him to maybe come back instead of definitely saying he will; if he does, well, you get to see your friend again. If he doesn't, they've subverted an incredibly common cliché. I don't see what's offensive about the ending, either.

Is it possible G'raha will come back into the picture, maybe as a key player in the Main Scenario? Yes it is. However what allowed Estinen to become important was that Dragoons have a heavy importance in Ishgardian culture; if G'raha ever were to become important in the Main Scenario we'd probably be dealing heavily with Allag, which is something we do almost daily.

Eorzea is a much larger region than we currently have access to. The region is a peninsular subcontinent, and while we can access some of it we can't access Ishgard, Dravania, Sharlayan, Ala Mhigo, or most of the surrounding islands. Anyone from any of those places in addition to Ul'dah, Limsa Lominsa, and Gridania is also an Eorzean.

Well, aside from G'raha himself, the two links every other person with those brands definitively shares are Archon Louisoix and an active role in the Main Scenario. That the outlier just so happens (er, "happened," past tense) to represent the single playable race/gender option to not have a recurring, voiced representative in the entire 2.X Main Scenario cast (Au Ra isn't playable until 3.X) is something that would have been apparent to the devs from the start, as well as an exceedingly cruel and manipulative expectation to subvert. Naturally, this doesn't stop them from simply discarding him here as a way to be subversive, or perhaps he was only ever introduced for a temporary sense of inclusiveness, but either way one can't help but wonder what exactly they were thinking.

I'm really trying not to directly attack issues I had, and instead pointing out lingering doubts raised by the overall story, but if you must know, my issue is that, as an episode in the larger series that is FFXIV, the one thing currently not left entirely up to the imagination is the one thing I wanted most out of his story: seeing him again before the end of my own. For now I'm forced to content myself with the open possibility of Biggs and Wedge's promise to come back in a few years to mean we'll be opening the tower in Year 2 or Year 3 of the new calendar, but that, with current time constraints, means 2 to 3 years after the final resolution of XIV's main scenario (which takes place entirely in year 0). Better than nothing I suppose, but still a kick to the emotional nads.

While the only other people with G'raha's tattoos are linked together by the Main Scenario and Louisoix, we still don't know what exactly the tattoos mean. Clearly they mean something, but exactly what that is isn't defined. The most likely case is that it's simply a mark of Students of Baldesion who reach a certain rank, but none can say for sure.

Male miqo'te are rare NPCs, so having him show up at all was actually kind of surprising. Anyway, male miqo'te aren't the only race / sex combination underrepresented in the story; there are no major female elezen, much less one in the Scions and/or voiced (unless you count Alisae, and the Binding Coil is for most intents and purposes optional)... oh, wait, Iceheart is a female elezen. There is exactly one voiced Roegadyn male: Merlwyb's aide what's-his-name, implied to have been Mistbeard. He showed up in and hasn't been seen since 2.2. The only other recurring non-Merlwyb Roegadyn NPCs are comic relief (Hoary Boulder, Trachtoum), Rammbroes, or Slafborn; none of them are voiced or play a significant role.

So one antagonistic voiced female Elezen who showed up in 2.4 and 2.5, and one benevolent voiced male Roegadyn who showed up in 2.2.

If you want to get into clans it's even worse... forget their sex, there are zero Hellsguard, Keepers of the Moon, or Duskwight in the Main Scenario PERIOD. There are also no important female Highlanders or Plainsfolk, at all, and the only recurring Plainsfolk male (Teledji) was an utter douchebag... well, OK, Wedge is a male Plainsfolk, but he's mostly fallen by the wayside and never was voiced, and the same could be said to be true of Rammbroes (I forget if we ever visited St. Coinach's Find during the Main Scenario).

Maybe Pipin will do better.

... so male miqo'te aren't the only ones who got the short end of the stick as far as Main Scenario representation goes.

While most people can agree seeing G'raha seal himself inside Syrcus Tower was pretty sad... don't succumb to despair. Lament not losing him, but instead fight for a future he would be proud of... isn't that what he wanted to you do? If you can't accept your sorrow, how can you build a better future and honor G'raha's memory and wishes? It's not easy... but we all have our part to play.

Unless you want to reject your part, but we've already gone over that...

There are feels from good, well-plotted storytelling, and then there are feels that someone tries to force on you at the last second to give their story more "meaning." It's more that he was written off before we understood him at all that gets me, like we were led to believe he was one thing, just so they could pull the rug out from under us. There's really no point in you trying to cheer me up over it, but thanks anyway. I have a basic understanding of what I was meant to feel (rather, what emotions I was being force-fed), but what got most people about G'raha, myself included, was the unfortunate timing of the World of Darkness storyline happening in the same patch as The Chrysalis. There's no unseeing him as just another cheap plant for a manipulative emotional payoff after that, especially since most players were expecting him to, at worst, take Alisaie's "I'll come back to you" route.

To tell the truth, I'm usually a huge fan of stories where the main character literally exits the narrative at the end, but the difference is: those stories always end like that, final credits roll and all, and you're meant to fill in whatever happens after yourself. Seeing a (relatively) newly-introduced supporting character do that, at what amounts to the very beginning of the story, is just self-defeating, because you're left to deal with the rest of the story knowing you have no actual agency to influence the outcome towards the goal you've been given, and also knowing that you would be doing the exact same thing even if he hadn't. That's usually where you start cursing destiny, right?

(Not to mention that I went into it with too much literary baggage to ever be able to appreciate the message at the end, but I explained that in my first post.)

It's a different perspective than I was expected to have, but how did we end up on this subject, anyway?


Eureka! It's a real thing! Maybe. And what exactly about it makes it a "Forbidden Land," when we know the Allagans were already into some creepy stuff?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

(snipped the first part as I'm not replying to it)...

Male miqo'te are rare NPCs, so having him show up at all was actually kind of surprising. Anyway, male miqo'te aren't the only race / sex combination underrepresented in the story; there are no major female elezen, much less one in the Scions and/or voiced (unless you count Alisae, and the Binding Coil is for most intents and purposes optional)... oh, wait, Iceheart is a female elezen. There is exactly one voiced Roegadyn male: Merlwyb's aide what's-his-name, implied to have been Mistbeard. He showed up in and hasn't been seen since 2.2. The only other recurring non-Merlwyb Roegadyn NPCs are comic relief (Hoary Boulder, Trachtoum), Rammbroes, or Slafborn; none of them are voiced or play a significant role.[/quote

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SE can't have all races/genders/clans represented, especially as major NPCs, at all times it's just unfeasible and at least in some of these cases (like Highlander and Hellsquard) we'll most likely see more when we go to Ala Mhigo where they are much more common.

(Also, I did the math and that'd be 20 major NPCs without Au Ra.)

Eynzahr wasn't just implied to Mistbeard he was outright stated to be in the Hullbreaker Side-quest.

Also, Biggs was voiced in the MS.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

So one antagonistic voiced female Elezen who showed up in 2.4 and 2.5, and one benevolent voiced male Roegadyn who showed up in 2.2.

If you want to get into clans it's even worse... forget their sex, there are zero Hellsguard...

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Hoary Boulder. 2.55 has even set up for him to have a much bigger & serious role in the future.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

...Keepers of the Moon, or Duskwight in the Main Scenario PERIOD. There are also no important female Highlanders or Plainsfolk, at all, and the only recurring Plainsfolk male (Teledji) was an utter douchebag... well, OK, Wedge is a male Plainsfolk, but he's mostly fallen by the wayside and never was voiced, and the same could be said to be true of Rammbroes (I forget if we ever visited St. Coinach's Find during the Main Scenario).

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Amandine was Duskwright. As is Miounne. And judging by their grey skin Shiva & Iceheart are/were both Duskwright.

I'd say Teledji is an important NPC even if he's pushing up weeds now. Wedge (but I don't recall him being confirmed one way or another) was voiced during the main scenario. We don't know what Lolorito is so we can't count him as anything. Also, you forgot Papalymo.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Maybe Pipin will do better.

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He's a dunesfolk.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

... so male miqo'te aren't the only ones who got the short end of the stick as far as Main Scenario representation goes.

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I wouldn't count the Main Scenario as the be all and end all for representation though. Because as I said it's just not realistic for SE to be expected to have an NPC from every race/gender/clan in the main scenario and be a major NPC. If you look towards side quests; even if they be Hildibrand, the Job/Class quests, Event quests or Post Moogle they try to spread out the representation as much as possible.

Edit: Oh right, I can't believe you forgot Moenbryda! For shame! For shame!

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Originally Posted by lilirulu

snip

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I only ever meant to point out that, as far as simple race/gender representation in MS, "they can't represent everyone" only excludes male Miqo'te for the moment (and the "rarity" argument can only go so far for so long). If they manage to go all of Heavensward without a voiced male Miqo'te or male Au Ra, though, I suppose that will make it a list of two.

But this is a rather silly tangent, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by lilirulu

Stuff!

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I'm not the one unhappy with MS underrepresentin', and I'm sorry I don't remember the minutiae. Wasn't counting side stories either.

Didn't remember Biggs being voiced; have to comb over cutscenes now.

Did not forget Hoary Boulder but thus far he's just been unvoiced comic relief; did not see him being set up to be more serious later.

Didn't know Amandine was Duskwight; irrelevant now that she's a demon / dead, isn't voiced anyway. Have not seen definitive proof Mother Miounne is Duskwight; same for Iceheart, their pale skin tones are available to both clans. Mother Miounne isn't voiced anyway.

Did forget Papalymo. Apologies.

Did not forget Teledji, but was listing "under-represented" sex / race / clan combinations, and forgot about Papalymo.

Pipin is Plainsfolk; lacks the glassy, pupil-less iris of a Dunesfolk, and name fits Plainsfolk conventions.

Did not forget Moenbryda; considering her name fits Sea Wolf traditions she's probably of that clan, same as Merlwyb (was accounting the underrepresented female Hellsguard). She's the Moon Bride, yo!

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Originally Posted by lilirulu

Y'sholta is also most likely Gridania born considering she's a conjurer and their are three other Y clan Miqo'te located in Gridania.

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And her sister is in Gridania.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

That's usually where you start cursing destiny, right?

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Here's the thing though; you can't really change the outcome of any event in the game. Just like people throwing hissy fits over how "control of their character's persona" was taken away (etc.) in the 2.5.5. ending, you don't really have the power to change the outcome of anything in the story. It progresses if you complete the required MSQs. Everything else is optional.

It's just like the Binding Coil: an optional side-story. Whether you complete the Coil and Crystal Tower or not, the story spins on either way. They're both side stories exploring the past; while we do need to learn from the past, creating the future is more important.

'sides, I started cursing destiny at the end of 2.5.5 anyway. I never asked for this.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Eureka! It's a real thing! Maybe. And what exactly about it makes it a "Forbidden Land," when we know the Allagans were already into some creepy stuff?

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Well considering it was the location of the most powerful weapons in III (excepting the Legendary Smith ones) and it won't be released until 3.1 at the earliest, it's theorized Eureka might have something to do with the new Relic Weapon questline. The quest for said Relics isn't supposed to start until 3.1, so it kind of lines up? Either way, no way to know what they got down there assuming we get to go there.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

'sides, I started cursing destiny at the end of 2.5.5 anyway. I never asked for this.

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The only real difference between our views is that I started a couple patches earlier. My objective was never to inspire G'raha pull a stupid stunt that he can never take back for a cause I could never believe in, but it happened. I never meant to discuss it in this thread, because that dead horsebird has already been beaten. It's done, it happened, but they left "something" open. That "something" is all I was trying to discuss here, free from any prejudices about "rules" unrelated to the story itself.

"Oh, well, it's optional," and "nothing said people with those marks are important NPCs" are both justifications people came up with after 2.5 revealed that G'raha was actually never going to be able to leave the tower, as a way to rationalize the rather disappointingly abrupt ending given to a promising new character. It's one thing going into a movie theater and sitting through an entire isolated story in one go (knowing from the start it's going to be a stand-alone thing), and quite another to see that movie split into three episodes bundled in with the main story, with deep involvement from characters from that main story, with nothing besides the ending itself to indicate it was never meant to impact other events, or even introduce one new character for a later appearance. There was nothing to indicate it would end like it did, until it did, and while you can argue that that's the "twist," for a lot of us it just felt like a cruel lie.

But we don't actually know where the lie lies, yet, and a lot of unbreakable side-story-related "rules" were mercilessly slaughtered in 2.55, so can we please stop talking about it?



EDIT: Ick, that makes me sound like one of those fans. I'm not, I swear (mostly). Better way I can put it: if someone is going to remove themselves from the flow of time itself, especially at the end of a major storyline, I want to be allowed to feel it properly, and to know that that loss has had a defined impact on the world (especially if we will, in fact, never meet again). Instead, we went through the entire mourning process with him still on screen, and nothing (at present) indicates it is a loss that will be felt by anyone besides me and poor, stationary Rambroes, and even then only if you ask directly. I'm even sadder for Doga and especially Unei, because, since it potentially won't have happened for some players, Nero could easily never mention her again after his inevitable return. It's wishy-washy, when you get right down to it. But they wanted to leave us expecting more, so we'll see what actually happens.

Well no worries; I suppose it is kind of my fault for bringing up mechanics when that wasn't the subject.

That said, I'm not trying to be mean but assuming G'raha would be important in the Main Scenario was jumping to a conclusion. Think of it this way... in the Iron Man movies (and greater MCU), you'd expect War Machine to have a greater role than he does, being equipped in a similar fashion to the titular hero. That said, we all know how Rhodey's been treated in the MCU: he didn't appear in The Avengers, had a very downplayed role in Iron Man III, and without spoiling much while he does show up in Age of Ultron and gets to do some stuff... he's the butt of a lot of jokes. The point is that, regrettably, our favorite characters don't always get to take center stage.

It is totally possible G'raha will show up in the Main Scenario. Considering how 2.5.5 breaks a lot of the rules in regards to optional characters showing up in the Main Scenario and vice versa (the acting ACN Guildmaster who speaks to Tataru and trusts you with her exam if you're an accomplished ACN, Estinien showing up and treating you like an old buddy if you've finished the DRG quests, and the infamous CUL Zombie Nanamo paradox) it's not impossible. Estinien even seems like he'll be a major character in 3.0. Anything's possible... how probable it is, on the other hand, nobody can say. With Eureka maybe coming into the picture chances might go up... but then again, they might not. If (when) Nero shows back up he could just use a few different / extra lines of dialogue, a la Estinien, if you've cleared the World of Darkness.

The Crystal Tower ending was a bit abrupt, but I kind of saw it coming. As side content they had to wrap it up, and that was one of the few ways I saw it ending especially after G'raha's "Now I know my purpose" line. Storytelling in 2.5.x was all kind of... off, a little... but even if nobody ever mentions G'raha, Doga, or Unei again, never forget their sacrifices.

To answer the original question:

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Tl;dr: It was possible to send a message about hope, in very similar circumstances, without ending it they way they did, so with the presence of Eureka teased by that certain cutscene, is there some deeper reason that they didn't?

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Maybe. Considering how power-hungry the Garleans are and how willing the Monetarists are to seize power regardless of the cost, I'd say G'raha sealing it was rather justified... but that's just me.

No way no how we should live like the Allagans. They were incredibly cruel, and their tech bred stagnation. I think Cid knows this but it's not what you have, it's how you use it that's important. Kind of why he opposes Garlemald, since their "way" is essentially recreating Allag.

I... really can't comment on Eureka. It has no plotline significance and no backstory in III, so as far as content or it's importance to the lore of the XIV's world is concerned anything goes if it's added.

Yshtola's sister isn't from Gridania. Her dialog says she came to Eorzea partly due to her sisters stories of the place. Id say her and Yshtola are Shalayan.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Considering how power-hungry the Garleans are and how willing the Monetarists are to seize power regardless of the cost, I'd say G'raha sealing it was rather justified... but that's just me.

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Sealing it? Yes. Sealing himself inside? Not convinced that was for the best. Nothing stopping the Garleans, or worse, from opening it themselves later, and we won't always be around to protect it. "Faith in humanity" (yeah, that) is all we have to say it won't be misused (or just overused) 1000 years from now, anyway. Unless it can actually be used to save the world from imminent peril in our near future, we don't need it. Naturally I had no way of saying that at the time, but still.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The point is that, regrettably, our favorite characters don't always get to take center stage.

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But New Avengers. Come on. With the MCU, at least, you generally know the less prominent characters have good things on the way. Generally. But yeah, Age of Ultron... I'm so used to that kind of disappointment by now I didn't even feel it when it happened. Part of being me. Noting the quote your sig, you'll understand if I say Leon was my first-impression favorite, too. Sigh.

I know we aren't supposed to expect our favorites to take center stage, but my two favorites were G'raha and Moenbryda, in that order, and I did WoD and the 2.5 MS, in that order, on patch day. It's one thing watching your favorites go, it's entirely another for them to be the first ones sacrificed for the genre shift, because you have no way of knowing they'll commit until it happens. But it did.

It's especially bad for me with G'raha, because while he'd been waving the tragic destiny flag like a fiend since 2.3, my innate assumption (thanks, Final Fantasy) was that he would have some sort of internal conflict when it happened, even if we might not get to save him until later. Die his hair blond and his vest blue and he even turns into Zidane, so really? Just gonna take it like that? But nope, not tragic (apparently), and no internal conflict needed, even considering what he "remembered" wasn't actually something he had ever "forgotten." Okay, cool. Thanks for the friendly reminder that we actually have no way of predicting anything your characters will do, FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It is totally possible G'raha will show up in the Main Scenario.

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I honestly never meant to say that be would, just that it wasn't entirely impossible (much more so had he not done that, though, but who knows). If he does come back, he'll probably die. The entire thing is so incredibly Doctor Who that I can't see him coming back except to die for real, or meet some even worse fate. Far too soon to say if he will or won't, and I'm still ambivalent on the whole thing, honestly. For all we know, though, the Eureka story (if it even has one) will just be about protecting Sleeping Beauty, and he may only appear at the end to thank us and replay the message from the end of the CT story before going away for good.

He did leave a lot of potentially important questions unanswered (so, also potentially irrelevant) when he left, though, and the writers can't very well introduce another Royal Allagan after Doga and Unei searched the world for them for 5 years. The whole thing feels like a loaded gun left onstage just to sit around for a while. Doesn't ever have to get fired, but it is there.

"Accept it and move on," has been played a whole lot these days, and we're all already sure we're just going to be a different sort of passive in Heavensward. Obviously I'm still playing, but I'm hoping that at least some of that passive will involve intervening in destiny. G'raha's, too? Hopefully, some day, but I'll be happy if I can at least save Yda. Given my track record, though...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Sealing it? Yes. Sealing himself inside? Not convinced that was for the best.

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It's not explicitly stated, but implicitly it's only possible to seal the tower from the inside. Either that or G'raha's magical Allagan blood told him to do it cuz it was his fate or whatever... and, well, people don't seem keen on questioning or rejecting fate in XIV.

Astral and Umbral turn ever on, heedless of the wishes or efforts of mortals. Light will fade to Dark, and Dark be burned away by Light. We can do naught but accept this and play our part in turning the wheel of fate.

Only... Is this our only choice?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

It's one thing watching your favorites go, it's entirely another for them to be the first ones sacrificed for the genre shift, because you have no way of knowing they'll commit until it happens.

Thanks for the friendly reminder that we actually have no way of predicting anything your characters will do, FFXIV.

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Personal favorite characters aside, it does kind of suck when they kill off or otherwise get rid of popular characters to advance the story. I assume that's the point of killing them off, though - it shows that even though they're popular anyone can die. Poorly written and handled? Kinda maybe.

Having the characters act in unpredictable ways is actually kind of nice. It shows they aren't totally logical or cliché; they decide things for themselves and act independently, just like real people would. If you could predict every event and intervene to change the one whose outcomes you don't like it'd just be another power fantasy, and being unable to get a "perfect outcome" where everything you want happens or is true just isn't going to happen when you have a large number of players on the stage. I much prefer stories where getting the perfect ending full of sugar and rainbows isn't possible; less idealistic, maybe, but more realistic.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

... The whole thing feels like a loaded gun left onstage just to sit around for a while. Doesn't ever have to get fired, but it is there.

"Accept it and move on," has been played a whole lot these days, and we're all already sure we're just going to be a different sort of passive in Heavensward. Obviously I'm still playing, but I'm hoping that at least some of that passive will involve intervening in destiny. G'raha's, too? Hopefully, some day, but I'll be happy if I can at least save Yda. Given my track record, though...

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I think the point of teasing Eureka was to leave it open-ended; that way if the storyline was popular enough and/or there was enough demand they could revisit it, if not they could drop it without upsetting too many people. Some people are always going to be upset, but that's the nature of the world... you can't please everyone.

Passivity? Big time, and in light of 2.5.5's rather depressing ending it's pissing me off. Can we intervene in the flow of fate and create our own future? I sincerely hope so, because by the look of things we're just going to perpetuate the fated Astral and Umbral cycle.

As an aside, I'm +99.9% sure none of the Scions actually bit the big one. They're too popular and integral to the story. How they survived, and why nobody could find them... look for the answers in 3.x.