[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

Sure it's not unique in the MMO world, but it still provided cross-job skills with balance.
Anyone else want the FFXI system back?

I like the current system, it just needs some limitations, like only being able to draw from 2-3 different classes on top of your main. Mix that with a few other changes, like making more spells worthwhile and affinity balancing, and you've got yourself a solid way to do things.

I think there should be some sort of UI to select 1-2 specific classes that you may choose skills from.. and the combination chosen should change your class name. For example gladiator + conjurer would yield the class name Paladin.

That would be great!

I like the idea of being able to choose 2 classes that makes a completely new one, this i would really vote for, but i dont know about others.

I think to many like the current system

It could possibly work like advanced classes in FFXI.. Quest for the ability to combine 2 of the classes to make the new one (given that both classes met a level requirement)

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Originally Posted by Esoteric

I think there should be some sort of UI to select 1-2 specific classes that you may choose skills from.. and the combination chosen should change your class name. For example gladiator + conjurer would yield the class name Paladin.

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I am for this.

Maybe. The only problem is that leads to very few avenues for creating a new job. The only time you'll see a difference is when you combine a DoW with a DoM. I don't really see a Marauder & Pugilist, Gladiator & Lancer, and Archer & Thaumaturge making any new job what so ever. It's best and far less complicated to just introduce a new job in future expansions like they did previously.

The concept is there as for class names and specific - those seem to be changing regardless. And whats wrong with an archer/caster hybrid? (archer/thamauture) I'm sure we cold make up a name for that ;). Marauder + Pugilist could use staves a la Monk

I would love sub job system, that was fantastic

sub job = balance and 'win'


for anyone who wants to argue about 'being a different mmo, and not following it's predecessor'

Yoshi-p had an interview just a couple days ago and a clear excerpt read:

"Then once you get past that first step of getting into the world, you realize that there is just so much to do. There's a lot of content, it's not ending, there's all this stuff do to. And also, it's a real Final Fantasy game--it's not just some game--it has that Final Fantasy Flavor."

If you all want to hear a really good concept, go to General Disscussion Forum's and read about "[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes"

Kuroki has a really good suggestion about how to create a class system. It has some potential.

Just in case you're too lazy to scroll back I've included the webpage below.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...sic-FF-Classes

I love the current system. FFXI no more, please!

People is like a bird that born in a cage here. FFXIV gave players freedom to play the way they want, and still they prefer to be under tremendous gameplay restrictions like was in FFXI. This is not FFXI-2 (and hopefully never will be)...accept the freedom the game give to players, try and have fun! ^^

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Originally Posted by Lienn

I love the current system. FFXI no more, please!

People is like a bird that born in a cage here. FFXIV gave players freedom to play the way they want, and still they prefer to be under tremendous gameplay restrictions like was in FFXI. This is not FFXI-2 (and hopefully never will be)...accept the freedom the game give to players, try and have fun! ^^

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A lot of us have tried to enjoy this "freedom" and find it bland and tasteless. Thats why you see posts about wanting to change it.

I agree with MysteryG. The system is fine. It just need limitations. Sure there are a few abilities here and there that are class specific, but not enough to make classes unique.

I personally, as stated in a previous post, think that only certain buffs should be cross classed and no Weaponskills at all. It really makes no sense for a Gladiator to be able to use Archer Weaponskills unless its with throwing daggers... and who uses those? :P

No thanks, I like the ability to mix and match as I see fit. No need to go the Rift route. Armoury system is fine, just needs some twicks

I would like to see job/sub job system again, but lots of things may be changed too.

In another way, I don't dislike the current system, but it need A LOT of changes too.

I made a comment last night about this.

I love the armory system and don't want to see it pigeon-holed into strict class roles again.

What I would like to see though is a FF: Tactics style system added. The big problem right now is that you can equip any skill on any class, taking away part of the uniqueness. In Tactics, you could learn any skill you wanted, but certain classes could only equip certain types of skills (with the exception of Squire I believe). They should do this with FFXIV.

For example: Cure could be equipped by any class. However, Cure II+ could only be equipped by Mage classes and Gladiator (to make a Paladin-type class or similar).

The point of the main job / sub job system was that the main job had a defined set of abilities that gradually got better / more defining. Having a singular sub job added enough in way of customization, without breaking the game. Players had to pick and choose what abilities would be best suited for certain events.

Example: /war was better at over all DoT. /thf was better at threat control.

This system was great. It made each class feel unique, and then made them feel even better by just switching how the role was played. I simply don't understand why people like being able to take every ability from every job to make one character. If we don't have to give anything up, then it isn't really customizing. It's just adding another toy to the box.

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Originally Posted by Heartfire

I simply don't understand why people like being able to take every ability from every job to make one character. If we don't have to give anything up, then it isn't really customizing. It's just adding another toy to the box.

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No offense, but this just isn't the case. Even with the current system, you still are limited by your Ability points. You have to "give up" something and pick and choose, so it is customizing.

Though I do a agree that the uniqueness is a little lost. That's why I suggest using the system from Tactics that limits what skills can be applied to which classes.

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Originally Posted by Blitz0309

A lot of us have tried to enjoy this "freedom" and find it bland and tasteless. Thats why you see posts about wanting to change it.

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Posts asking to change aren't what people is doing. They're just asking to change...they are asking to change to FFXI or FFT or any other known game...its part of human nature always chosing the old, known option instead of learning about the new one.

Basically there's 2 ways for someone learning something: By accident (you happen to learn part of something and it catch your attention enough for you to search knowledge about that) or when forced to do so.

Its exactly the same here...but due the terrible release players just prefered to utterly reject the game systems instead of giving it a chance of showing its strenght.

I'll be honest...the only point i really think will never work properly in this game is the battle regimen. I believe battle regimen will need a real revamp before it can be used properly in this game....but all the rest is perfectly fine...they just need a few tweaks, that are exactly what dev team is doing.

This game don't need skillchains, subjobs, AH or any other system from FFXI, FFT or any other FF. It does have a very good core system that can support a brand new and unique gameplay. Just give dev team time to finish adjusting it.

And meanwhile, have fun with it ^^ Its a game after all! ^^

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Posts asking to change aren't what people is doing. They're just asking to change...they are asking to change to FFXI or FFT or any other known game...its part of human nature always chosing the old, known option instead of learning about the new one.

Basically there's 2 ways for someone learning something: By accident (you happen to learn part of something and it catch your attention enough for you to search knowledge about that) or when forced to do so.

Its exactly the same here...but due the terrible release players just prefered to utterly reject the game systems instead of giving it a chance of showing its strenght.

I'll be honest...the only point i really think will never work properly in this game is the battle regimen. I believe battle regimen will need a real revamp before it can be used properly in this game....but all the rest is perfectly fine...they just need a few tweaks, that are exactly what dev team is doing.

This game don't need skillchains, subjobs, AH or any other system from FFXI, FFT or any other FF. It does have a very good core system that can support a brand new and unique gameplay. Just give dev team time to finish adjusting it.

And meanwhile, have fun with it ^^ Its a game after all! ^^

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I wasn't saying we should change it to FFT's system. But I was using FFT as an example of how you could change the system to bring out more uniqueness in characters.

For the most part I love the armory system. I'm happy with it as is, but I could see how it could be improved. And one of those ways would be to limit which skills can be equipped on which classes.

Though I think also adding Advanced jobs and Class-only skills would go a long way as well.

As much as I like the current system for the sake of balance and class definition I would prefer going back to the sub job system. People think that in FFXI you got pigeon-holed into certain sub jobs for classes, well it was only really one thing that broke the system for the most part and the was Utsusemi as in a lot of cases people went /NIN and expected you to as well.

With the current system yes you have lot's of choices for now but down the line when the game has developed and people have figured out the optimal builds for each class, how will you feel about having to level lot's of classes to all different ranks to gain those certain abilities that will create that optimal build that people expect you to have. There will not be so much freedom in choices then and you will be back to being pigeon-holed, only now you will have to do even more work to not be considered gimp.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

As much as I like the current system for the sake of balance and class definition I would prefer going back to the sub job system. People think that in FFXI you got pigeon-holed into certain sub jobs for classes, well it was only really one thing that broke the system for the most part and the was Utsusemi as in a lot of cases people went /NIN and expected you to as well.

With the current system yes you have lot's of choices for now but down the line when the game has developed and people have figured out the optimal builds for each class, how will you feel about having to level lot's of classes to all different ranks to gain those certain abilities that will create that optimal build that people expect you to have. There will not be so much freedom in choices then and you will be back to being pigeon-holed, only now you will have to do even more work to not be considered gimp.

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You're not thinking broadly enough.

Even though FFXI had probably the least pigeon-holing out of all the MMOs, it still has much more than FFXIV does.

If you were a WHM, you were a healer.
If you were a BLM, you were a DD.
If you were a PLD, you were a Tank.

No one's arguing that there won't be "optimal builds" for classes in this game. But the point is that there will be more of them. You have a choice between many optimal combinations, or at least more than in FFXI.

I like being able to switch from a heal spec to a DD spec as a Conjurer as we need it. I like being able to switch from a Tank spec to a DD spec as a Glad. I like being able to switch from a DD spec to a Support spec. And that's the beauty of the system. Sure, there will only be a few "optimal specs" within each of those, but each class can change spec, allowing for a lot of flexibility.

the current system is the sub job system from xi to the nth degree. pick and choose the best skills and abilities from other classes to augment what you are doing with out having to take on the other useless baggage that comes with it.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You're not thinking broadly enough.

Even though FFXI had probably the least pigeon-holing out of all the MMOs, it still has much more than FFXIV does.

If you were a WHM, you were a healer.
If you were a BLM, you were a DD.
If you were a PLD, you were a Tank.

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Funny thing is that when they introduced Ninja as an advanced job, it was originally intended to be a DD through the elemental wheel of ninjitsu.

I have not read the entire thread but I am only answering the OP.

No I would not like the job/subjob system back.

I like being able to pull abilities from more than two jobs and creating a unique character, to fit a unique situation, out of all of the abilities that I have rightfully earned. Tweaking ability affinities and action point allotments is all that is needed to "balance" the current system to be as restrictive as XI.

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Originally Posted by Blitz0309

A lot of us have tried to enjoy this "freedom" and find it bland and tasteless. Thats why you see posts about wanting to change it.

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Speak for yourself, the current system is fine, each job just needs more exclusive abilities, that give them a niche to fullfill within party play. There's no need to do away with the armory system just to give each job a specialized role. For example, speed surge and life surge are polearm-exclusive abilities, meaning that only lancers can use those skills. Likewise, arc has Quick nock, gla has heavy slash/stab, etc. you can make certain weapon skills job exclusives, i.e. skull sunder being able to be used by any job, but skull sunder II being mrd only, you could also add new job-exclusive traits, using mrd again as an example, you could have a trait that enhances steadfast, allowing it to activate faster, or a gla-exclusive trait that minimizes emnity loss when guarding. (think shield mastery)

i much prefer this system. i do not want the sub job system at all.

The job/sub job system was limited to two jobs (I say WAS because this is a FFXI concept). The current class skill system is greater than the job/sub job system.

The Job/sub job did not create unique characters at all. "a paladin is a paladin is a paladin" is how that old job went. If you werent Pld/War you were crap. You really want that old "Bland" system back.

I say bland because people are calling this newer system bland, even though you can fully customize your character with various skills and spells, to create something far beyond your basic jobs. You can turn your gladiator into a paladin, or turn your gladiator into a dark knight (still 1-h but the spells are still there).

I suggest those who are complaining about the class skill system try ranking up more than 1 or 2 jobs and you will see.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I say bland because people are calling this newer system bland, even though you can fully customize your character with various skills and spells, to create something far beyond your basic jobs. You can turn your gladiator into a paladin, or turn your gladiator into a dark knight (still 1-h but the spells are still there).

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Sounds great till it actually gets played. All you have now are ARC because range can defeat AOE. Nothing else matters.

It's like the a sad comparison, because no matter what FF11 is, FF14 is infinitely more broken. Pot-kettle would need to be a incredibly nuked one in this case.

More fixing, less finger pointing.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Sounds great till it actually gets played. All you have now are ARC because range can defeat AOE. Nothing else matters.

It's like the a sad comparison, because no matter what FF11 is, FF14 is infinitely more broken. Pot-kettle would need to be a incredibly nuked one in this case.

More fixing, less finger pointing.

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People will play the game how they want. If people are going to start and ARC bandwagon cuz they are scared of an AOE attack, so be it. Some people acually like punching or chopping things up close.

And like I always say, the door to FFXI and other MMO's is always open.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

I love the current system. FFXI no more, please!

People is like a bird that born in a cage here. FFXIV gave players freedom to play the way they want, and still they prefer to be under tremendous gameplay restrictions like was in FFXI. This is not FFXI-2 (and hopefully never will be)...accept the freedom the game give to players, try and have fun! ^^

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^this Without this freedom to play, FF has nothing to offer. Sadly, but if I search an old concept game, I can point my finger over 100 or more games.

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Originally Posted by Reika

The Job/sub job did not create unique characters at all. "a paladin is a paladin is a paladin" is how that old job went. If you werent Pld/War you were crap. You really want that old "Bland" system back.

I say bland because people are calling this newer system bland, even though you can fully customize your character with various skills and spells, to create something far beyond your basic jobs. You can turn your gladiator into a paladin, or turn your gladiator into a dark knight (still 1-h but the spells are still there).

I suggest those who are complaining about the class skill system try ranking up more than 1 or 2 jobs and you will see.

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So how exactly will this system be any different as far as being unique from FFXI? Down the road you're still going to have people who desire certain abilities to be used for the classes and shun those who don't cope with the norm. Your view on FFXI & FFXIV is irrelevent at best with your topics. Like someone said up above. "If this game's class system was perfect, why would people be complaining about it?"

And just so you know. Look down at my card down below this. If you'll notice, I've leveled every job. So far? Boring. The only reason why I like Lancer over the rest right now is because of Speed Surge being a class specific(Really it's weapon specific) trait that really shakes it apart from the others in my opinion.

What needs to happen is that abilities need to be turned into class specific rather than you being able to use it on whatever class you want.

Fact: A Marauder shouldn't have MP to use for Cure, Protect, Shell, etc.

Fact: A Pugilist shouldn't be able to use weaponskill's from another class whose weaponskills base off being slashing or piercing when their weapons are blunt based.

Fact: The current system needs drastic changes to improve upon so a much more pleased crowd can be obtained. (I believe ~80% approved in the questionaire?)

False: This game is better than FFXI in terms of being unique to a certain degree.

You can not be unique if you have a hall pass to every ability with minimal consequences.

of all the good things, subjobs aren't a thing i wanna see in a new game. It's a pretty much rigid structure, where you need to have a certain subjob to be good. Obliusly everybody should exp their jobs for a certain ability, but at least now you have some much customization

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Originally Posted by Lienn

I love the current system. FFXI no more, please!

People is like a bird that born in a cage here. FFXIV gave players freedom to play the way they want, and still they prefer to be under tremendous gameplay restrictions like was in FFXI. This is not FFXI-2 (and hopefully never will be)...accept the freedom the game give to players, try and have fun! ^^

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Yeah I agree with this one, sorry I havn't had a chance to read through all the posts, will do in second. To me, having this sort of freedom to customize your character to what you will it, is awesome. Have any of you never played The Elder Scrolls? I mean, being able to have a healer type, wielding a bow and arrow was awesome! I love that sort of freedom, and I am glad there is now an MMO that gives you that type of game play. Why would anyone want to change it? Just me I guess...and mybe a few others :P

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

So how exactly will this system be any different as far as being unique from FFXI? Down the road you're still going to have people who desire certain abilities to be used for the classes and shun those who don't cope with the norm. Your view on FFXI & FFXIV is irrelevent at best with your topics. Like someone said up above. "If this game's class system was perfect, why would people be complaining about it?"

And just so you know. Look down at my card down below this. If you'll notice, I've leveled every job. So far? Boring. The only reason why I like Lancer over the rest right now is because of Speed Surge being a class specific(Really it's weapon specific) trait that really shakes it apart from the others in my opinion.

What needs to happen is that abilities need to be turned into class specific rather than you being able to use it on whatever class you want.

Fact: A Marauder shouldn't have MP to use for Cure, Protect, Shell, etc.

Fact: A Pugilist shouldn't be able to use weaponskill's from another class whose weaponskills base off being slashing or piercing when their weapons are blunt based.

Fact: The current system needs drastic changes to improve upon so a much more pleased crowd can be obtained. (I believe ~80% approved in the questionaire?)

False: This game is better than FFXI in terms of being unique to a certain degree.

You can not be unique if you have a hall pass to every ability with minimal consequences.

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Who says a MRD shouldn't have MP? Or a PUG can't use other WS? Who died and left you in charge of what is right or not? I like having my melee character having MP. I turn my PUG into a lovely tank :) I like being able to have taunt, and cure, and pro :) It's fun :) I don't want someone telling me how I should spend my points to make my character. I went through the time to level it, I want it the way I want it. And if you chose to have your abilities limited, no one is stopping you from doing so. You want your MRD to not have magic, then don't spend points to put magic on it. Plain and simple. Restrict yourself, and let those who enjoy mixing it up, mix it up. Yeesh! >_<

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i much prefer this system. i do not want the sub job system at all.

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Quoted for truthiness.

I prefer the current system but like others have said, it could use some restrictions. I think a fair limitation to impose would be you can only equip abilities from your own discipline, like DoW is one category, DoM would be another. Or maybe since some might be in between (DRK if it ever makes it to XIV) put a trait on the guild marks vendor for rank 50 that allows you to "buy" a slot or two for another discipline.

All hail super cheat characters. Where there's no weaknesses and losing once means being able to immediately adapt on the fly.

We are the Borg, resistance is futile.

In the end it's opposing theories. You can't have a magical change character and still retain the dignity of fighting "fair"