selling coil runs and primals

The other night I was looking at pf and it was mainly ads selling runs through content. I'm sure I'll get slapped down for saying this, but is selling runs rather than joining and helping newer players only going to exacerbate the rmt problem?

Someone paid gil to get through content. This is a personal choice. Love or hate it, it's there. As for rmt? It can, no doubt about it.
I just find it funny that in most new content, SE has to make work arounds to keep Gil out of the equation with exceptions here and there.

You basically have 2 options here.. you either get the clears yourself with hard work or you pay for help. None of those people selling runs are going to do the content simply to help random new players. Friends or FC mates maybe but random people, not likely.

As for rmt I don't think you can place blame on the clear sellers since they're not the people buying gil. While I agree that it may give people a reason to buy gil in the first place, there are also a lot of legitimate players who buy clears, and the clear sellers themselves have no way to tell if the person buying a clear got their gil legitimately.

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Originally Posted by Aivi_lo

The other night I was looking at pf and it was mainly ads selling runs through content. I'm sure I'll get slapped down for saying this, but is selling runs rather than joining and helping newer players only going to exacerbate the rmt problem?

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I agree with you. I think it does add to the rmt problem. How much it adds? That I don't know but I'm fairly certain that it does add to it. After all, on some servers people really gouge the players who buy runs by asking for 1mil+ per run.

Then again, I am against players and FC's alike selling clears. I think all players should learn the fights before moving onto the next tier of difficulty.

I was pretty tempted to buy my Titan Ex clear - because I knew I was not the problem, everyone else was. (When you're the last one standing on the platform, you are not the problem. Clearly.) Fortunately, a group on Lamia started offering free clears of Titan Ex for players in exchange for the bonus and ponies, as they knew they could clear with 7 using their method even if the new scrub got knocked off.

Kill selling, the latest crafted gear and materia prices are the 3 major markets for RMT gil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. After all, those are the 3 primary things that actually cost any amount of gil. Given that 90% of a server population can't make that much gil from crafting or selling kills themselves, coming across players dropping 20mil, 30mil, 100mil on a kill, it's pretty clear where that gil has come from, even if I've not been told by those doing the selling, or friends of the buyer, that the gil was purchased.

Sometimes I help randoms, be it on DF, or by joining the last spot on a PF.

I helped quite a bunch of randoms with their clears on ramuh ex, shiva ex, mog ex, t5 and t9 for free.

I've also sold help for people who were willing to pay.
One of them paid a few millions to make sure he'd get his t9 weapon and body just for show off, but he didn't want to learn ow to clear t9. He was dead 100% of the time.

Their reactions (OMG WTF TY SO MUCH) is worth the trouble.




I felt touched when one day I joined some random's PF for t5... they were in TS (voice chat) and asked if I'd like to join... I did.

We cleared it on 2nd run and 6 people got their clears.
Some of them clearly had no clue about t5 mechanics, while others played perfectly.
Just right after we cleared it, one of the girls (real world girl), who didn't do any mistakes at all, started literally crying and sobbing on the voice chat.
She was just so thankful and mentioned she had been trying to clear t5 for over a year at that point and never managed to find a party who could beat it.
It really touched me. I tried to imagine how sad I'd feel if I had been trying and failing over and over something for a year, yet with the perseverance to keep trying...

How many more people are out there who, can play what still is a pretty difficult raid, who know exactly what they are doing, never do any mistakes, but can't get other 7 people with the same knowledge/experience ?





tl;dr
Some people deserve to get their clear and should not pay for it.
Some people are lazy and want to show-off gear that is not even that good anymore. This kind of people should definitely pay for their clears.

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Originally Posted by Darra

Given that 90% of a server population can't make that much gil from crafting or selling kills themselves, coming across players dropping 20mil, 30mil, 100mil on a kill, it's pretty clear where that gil has come from, even if I've not been told by those doing the selling, or friends of the buyer, that the gil was purchased.

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It's very easy to make large sums of gil via crafting or spiritbonding. I've made almost 4 mil from a single spiritbonding session (5 sets of gear) in less than 2 hours and that's only one example.

It's never clear where people get their gil, even if they don't have crafts leveled they can still spiritbond or if they're lucky enough have friends pay for their clear. Sure you can speculate but there is no way you can prove it.

I wouldn't think too much on it. Clear selling has been around in MMOs for ages and hasn't been the downfall of any of them. It'll be in future MMOs, too. While some of the buyers certainly do contribute to RMT, lots of people make their money legitimately.

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Originally Posted by Darra

Kill selling, the latest crafted gear and materia prices are the 3 major markets for RMT gil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. After all, those are the 3 primary things that actually cost any amount of gil. Given that 90% of a server population can't make that much gil from crafting or selling kills themselves, coming across players dropping 20mil, 30mil, 100mil on a kill, it's pretty clear where that gil has come from, even if I've not been told by those doing the selling, or friends of the buyer, that the gil was purchased.

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LOL.

Just because you have a lot of gil doesn't mean you buy it. You're insulting every crafter, spirit bonder, gardener, map grinder and run seller out there.

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Originally Posted by Darra

Kill selling, the latest crafted gear and materia prices are the 3 major markets for RMT gil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

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Agreed.

I made it a guiding principle in my FC to have no shadow of RMT over our FC. As a result we have actually kicked two players for run selling. They were confused by the action, but in our view not only is it exploiting other players (in a directly exploitative manner that goes beyond standard economic activity such as buying/selling items through the MB), but it's also a key driver in giving other players an incentive to buy gil.

With regard to kicking people out of my FC for this kind of thing, or any kind of cheating/RMT; all I can say is, I've done it before, and I surely will do it again if the need arises.

I should add that the reason we view run selling as exploitation of other players, is that our FC is based on respecting other players (FC member or not), being friendly and helping freely - just for the sake of helping. My FC leadership is unanimous in agreeing that selling runs (even selling quick queues to Ninja/Rogue when that was new) is not respecting other players, nor is it helping others for the sake of helping; it's taking advantage of another player for personal gain, when the help could be offered freely. It just does not fit the ethics or spirit of our FC.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

LOL.

Just because you have a lot of gil doesn't mean you buy it. You're insulting every crafter, spirit bonder, gardener, map grinder and run seller out there.

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I disagree, I am certain that there are plenty of players who do make their gil legitimately, however, there are players who buy runs, and they buy them because they can't (or do not want to) obtain their wins or gear any other way, it's the same reason they buy crafted gear and high tier materia (rather than spirit bonding it themself) - "aint nobody got time for that...stuff".

That's not to say that all transactions for crafted gear or materia are RMT related - clearly they are not. However consider that the RMT bots you can see are all wearing gear that was crafted/melded by someone. Sometimes it's their own craft-bots, but more often it's legitimate players who are 'unwittingly' selling items to RMT Bots. Combine that with the players who buy items with purchased gil, and you can see that actually a decent proportion of the gil in the pockets of high level crafters could be tainted - without out their knowledge or intent.

That doesn't mean that there is any ill intent from those crafters or spirit binders selling materia, they can't exactly govern who buys their gear, nor where the gil comes from. But simple logic and basic math quickly lead to the conclusion that a lot of the gil in circulation is comes through RMT, and is injected into the rest of the economy through the purchase of high ticket items and runs.

Yes run selling gives more value to gil and adds to the "Pay to win" market. Whether or not these run buyers are gil buyers? I can't say for sure. Are some of them gil buyers? Probably. If you want to clear difficult content you need to up your social game. I spent 5 months putting together a 70 person linkshell of some highly skilled players on my server who all have GOOD ATTITUDES. No epeens or anything like that.

How did I do it? I joined party finder groups, socialized with people, used my judgement after the interaction to determine if they are decent people I also looked out for people's potential to clear content and I would message them after the fight and just talk.

You clear content by getting to know people and finding the people who are actually capable of clearing things.

This, however, is too much work for some people I guess. But I'm in a situation where I can take my friends and do anything I want almost anytime I want while these run buyers gotta keep farming gil to buy their runs everytime they want to do something... or endure being called noob cuz they don't actually know the fight yet have no soldiery bonus.

I'm sorry I see no personal satisfaction to be gained from buying your runs. Even if you keep getting bad players on your teams (I used to have that problem) you can still solve that issue with some dedication and actually socializing and what not. Meh

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

LOL.

Just because you have a lot of gil doesn't mean you buy it. You're insulting every crafter, spirit bonder, gardener, map grinder and run seller out there.

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He's not, he's simply saying that many of the people with a lot of gil have got it through RMT.

Most of the "rich" players, are rich because of selling to RMT's, either directly or indirect, there is just so muhc RNT gil floating about, it's impossible to avoid.

I.e. If craft something "high end" and sell it on mb, there is a good chance the gil it's bought with will come from RMT, same for those who got their gil from SB'ing and kill selling.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

As for rmt I don't think you can place blame on the clear sellers since they're not the people buying gil. While I agree that it may give people a reason to buy gil in the first place, there are also a lot of legitimate players who buy clears, and the clear sellers themselves have no way to tell if the person buying a clear got their gil legitimately.

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Having come from games in the past that have had serious issues with RMT, I instead posit that a not insignificant number of the gil selling groups are likely either a) "subsidiaries" of some of the gil selling franchises or b) "independent contractors" who wholesale much of their gil to those franchises for real money.

It has all happened before, and it will happen again.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

LOL.

Just because you have a lot of gil doesn't mean you buy it. You're insulting every crafter, spirit bonder, gardener, map grinder...

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No, if you read what he said, he pointed out the vast majority (90%) of people won't have tons of money. And that's true.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

It's very easy to make large sums of gil via crafting or spiritbonding. I've made almost 4 mil from a single spiritbonding session (5 sets of gear) in less than 2 hours and that's only one example.

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Or you can be really unlucky and do dozens of spiritbond sets and NEVER see a tier4 other than elemental materia. I was doing 3-5 sets per day for weeks, and most days I barely broke even or lost gil with spiritbonding. Now prices have dropped so much on tier3s on my server that you are losing gil unless you land a good tier4 or farm all of the mats and craft stuff yourself. Maybe i70 spiritbonding is better these days, but not everyone has enough friends to spam t4 to make it worth the time investment nor wants to spend 20mins queueing for Castrum Meridianum and risk being kicked.

Spiritbonding is not some magical method of printing gil anymore. Maybe Cactuar server's tier3s are still worth tons of gil, though.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

If you want to clear difficult content you need to up your social game.
**snip**
You clear content by getting to know people and finding the people who are actually capable of clearing things.
**snip**
This, however, is too much work for some people I guess.
**snip**
I'm sorry I see no personal satisfaction to be gained from buying your runs.

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Indeed. I'd rather leave something on my yet to clear list than purchase a clear in any way, but that is me. Unfortunately, not everyone things that way.

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Originally Posted by Darra

Given that 90% of a server population can't make that much gil from crafting or selling kills themselves, coming across players dropping 20mil, 30mil, 100mil on a kill, it's pretty clear where that gil has come from, even if I've not been told by those doing the selling, or friends of the buyer, that the gil was purchased.

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I'm pretty sure you pulled that 90% figure straight out of your hind end. It's not hard to make the 500k-1mil that most people charge for the EX primal clears. Hell, Savage Might IV materia are 400k+ on my server. Spiritbond and get a single one of those and you're most of the way there. There's plenty of ways to make gil that don't involve RMT. People that don't have the gil either 1) don't know how to make it, 2) don't have the time to make it, or 3) don't have the inclination to make it. It's as simple as that. This game is easy to make money in.

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Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

Maybe i70 spiritbonding is better these days, but not everyone has enough friends to spam t4 to make it worth the time investment

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What? Solo queue T4. Even as a DPS it's almost never more than a 5 minute wait.

I get 50-60% tier IV from i70 items.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

What? Solo queue T4. Even as a DPS it's almost never more than a 5 minute wait.

I get 50-60% tier IV from i70 items.

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You're also on a different data center. Solo queues are generally much higher than 5 minutes for T4 for me unless it's nexus/zeta light bonus or I'm tank or healer. It's also way more capital investment if you have to buy the gear or any of the mats, and not everyone can craft their own i70 sets. I have had really awful luck with i70 spiritbonding too, so this is still not magic print gil button like a lot of people claim.

Not sure what prices are like on Sargatanas, but usually mining and botany for clusters and a few other odds and ends (with unmelded fresh 50 gear) is much higher gil per hour than spiritbonding unless you are really lucky with tier4s.

Anyway, we're off topic. D: Actually responding to OP: Anything that requires a lot of currency on an MMO will result in more RMT. People who sell wins are not the ones responsible for RMT, however. :/

The Kings of Sleaze

I want to clear t10, but can't join a group,cause they're all NO SOLLL...

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

I want to clear t10, but can't join a group,cause they're all NO SOLLL...

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Start a learning party. If there isn't a party to your liking in PF, then get one out there!

Many veterans actually join them fairly regularly to help.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Start a learning party. If there isn't a party to your liking in PF, then get one out there!

Many veterans actually join them fairly regularly to help.

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I hope this is joke , i was tried learning pt for T8 last week . 4 times i reupped PF (2 times as PLD , 2 as BRD) , so i waited 4 hours on Balmung @ NA primetime just to get no one . (Before say DF , i was in que as PLD & BRD 6 days in row (5~6 hours per day) got proc only 2 times as tank just to "abandon in 2 wipes" . So ye i just bought t8 for 900k which takes only 1~2h to make /sadface

No because making gil is independent of your ability to finish coils.. People can still make gil with the same effectiveness as any other without ever having stepped foot in coils.

Nobody's gonna buy gil just so they can buy a coil run.. If people do buy gil and pay for the coil runs with RMT gil, then those people would've bought the gil anyway for other things in game like housing and items.

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

I hope this is joke , i was tried learning pt for T8 last week . 4 times i reupped PF (2 times as PLD , 2 as BRD) , so i waited 4 hours on Balmung @ NA primetime just to get no one . (Before say DF , i was in que as PLD & BRD 6 days in row (5~6 hours per day) got proc only 2 times as tank just to "abandon in 2 wipes" . So ye i just bought t8 for 900k which takes only 1~2h to make /sadface

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Do people even do T8? I only see T5 and T9+..
Also.. you might wanna consider joining a coil LS, there are few of those around and that'll help you get the word out when you make a party in pf

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

I hope this is joke , i was tried learning pt for T8 last week . 4 times i reupped PF (2 times as PLD , 2 as BRD) , so i waited 4 hours on Balmung @ NA primetime just to get no one . (Before say DF , i was in que as PLD & BRD 6 days in row (5~6 hours per day) got proc only 2 times as tank just to "abandon in 2 wipes" . So ye i just bought t8 for 900k which takes only 1~2h to make /sadface

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T8 is sadly pretty outdated at this point, so yeah it'd be sort of hard to fill a learning party for it. :c

Why would you buy T8, though? Just for the achievements?

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

I hope this is joke , i was tried learning pt for T8 last week . 4 times i reupped PF (2 times as PLD , 2 as BRD) , so i waited 4 hours on Balmung @ NA primetime just to get no one . (Before say DF , i was in que as PLD & BRD 6 days in row (5~6 hours per day) got proc only 2 times as tank just to "abandon in 2 wipes" . So ye i just bought t8 for 900k which takes only 1~2h to make /sadface

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While I think buying runs is fine, did you just throw it up in PF and be done with it? If so, there's several things you could try before resorting to selling. Shout in the major cities for help (this usually helps a lot), see if any of your friends in the game want to learn the turn with you, instead of just clearing T8 try and make a new static for clearing SCoB (alternatively start the T8 party and then recruit from there), etc. etc. You have to be active and try to get people to join you otherwise no one will and you'll have to buy it. Which is fine as long as you can afford it, I just think that if you can do the content without buying, then you should.

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

I hope this is joke , i was tried learning pt for T8 last week . 4 times i reupped PF (2 times as PLD , 2 as BRD) , so i waited 4 hours on Balmung @ NA primetime just to get no one . (Before say DF , i was in que as PLD & BRD 6 days in row (5~6 hours per day) got proc only 2 times as tank just to "abandon in 2 wipes" . So ye i just bought t8 for 900k which takes only 1~2h to make /sadface

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You're not a qt catgirl in Balmung, that's why no one joined.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

T8 is sadly pretty outdated at this point, so yeah it'd be sort of hard to fill a learning party for it. :c

Why would you buy T8, though? Just for the achievements?

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Some people actually want to do every Turn, or want to get complete gear sets for Allagan and High Allagan gear. I see a lot of people ask this question and I don't see what's so confusing about it.

I blacklist every run seller i see in pf.

I do wish blisted players pf wouldnt show but at least they're greyed out.

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Originally Posted by SevenHeavens

I blacklist every run seller i see in pf

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Why? They're selling a service, do you also blacklist crafters who charge a crafting fee?

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Originally Posted by Darra

Kill selling, the latest crafted gear and materia prices are the 3 major markets for RMT gil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. After all, those are the 3 primary things that actually cost any amount of gil. Given that 90% of a server population can't make that much gil from crafting or selling kills themselves, coming across players dropping 20mil, 30mil, 100mil on a kill, it's pretty clear where that gil has come from, even if I've not been told by those doing the selling, or friends of the buyer, that the gil was purchased.

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Some of us just have a cute little lala Sugar Daddy. ^^

Somebody sell me a T8 clear, I'll pay you in bubblegum. c:

What's the point if buying clears again? False prestige? It's just so frustrating when "X content doesn't matter because someone bought their clear out of it".

Selling runs is not against the Code of Conduct though. We could argue that anything of worth increases the RMT; whether it's high-end items like Pentamelded Crafted Gear and Fat Cats or end-game raids like Coils. There will be RMT for as long as there's people to buy it - it's an endless cycle. I think SE should just try to figure out means to boot out the gold sellers faster in the game.

I will admit that I have bought runs before. I also earned all my gil legitimately. Did some of that gil likely come from RMT at some point in the currency chain? probably! do I care? Not really!

When it comes to crafting, gil is gil. If there were no RMT gold buyers, I suspect the market would likely crash from lack of circulation. Sometimes, gil buyers are the only thing keeping gil flowing from place to place. Am I inadvertently supporting RMT? yeah, probably. but I don't really care about the size of others Epeens, so RMT doesn't really affect me negatively.

My reasonings for buying clears? I cannot, and do not wish to, learn to clear the content myself. I spent months learning how to effectively make gil through crafting, and Enjoy that side of the game immensely. I DREAD using any of my battle classes, because I REALLY dislike the battle systems in this game. It just isn't enjoyable to me. But I still want to share in the storyline, and eventually get to access ishgard, and all the cool new crafting recipes within. So, I leverage something I'm good at (crafting) to supplement something I don't enjoy (battle).

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Agreed.

I made it a guiding principle in my FC to have no shadow of RMT over our FC. As a result we have actually kicked two players for run selling. They were confused by the action, but in our view not only is it exploiting other players (in a directly exploitative manner that goes beyond standard economic activity such as buying/selling items through the MB), but it's also a key driver in giving other players an incentive to buy gil.

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wow. Just, wow. I feel like those 2 players are better off for having been kicked. that's just... intolerant and unappealing. Do you guys kick 3 star or higher crafters for the same reasoning?

Edit: before people say "so you like spam?" I filter out my /tells, and make everyone who wants to contact me do so over mog mail. its a simple solution, and I haven't had an issue with it so far.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

As for rmt I don't think you can place blame on the clear sellers since they're not the people buying gil.

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But they willingly take the dirty money...

In real life terms, i also don´t want to get paid by a boss who earns his money by something illegal...

as i try to live by my moral standards, i have quite a bad feeling as well when i see ppl running around in fully melded 110 HQ Gear, but can´t get on the basic mechanic fights, or buying FCoB clears and loot for sums you clearly can´t have earned by that time they play.

sad but true, like the real world, eorzea is just what we make of it, ...

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Agreed.

I made it a guiding principle in my FC to have no shadow of RMT over our FC. As a result we have actually kicked two players for run selling. They were confused by the action, but in our view not only is it exploiting other players (in a directly exploitative manner that goes beyond standard economic activity such as buying/selling items through the MB), but it's also a key driver in giving other players an incentive to buy gil.

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So you kicked two actually good players from your FC out of some petty preconceptions.
All I can say, good job, they'll probably be better off without you.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

What's the point if buying clears again? False prestige? It's just so frustrating when "X content doesn't matter because someone bought their clear out of it".

Selling runs is not against the Code of Conduct though. We could argue that anything of worth increases the RMT; whether it's high-end items like Pentamelded Crafted Gear and Fat Cats or end-game raids like Coils. There will be RMT for as long as there's people to buy it - it's an endless cycle. I think SE should just try to figure out means to boot out the gold sellers faster in the game.

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Sometimes it's just to get through the content. T5 may be too unpopular on some servers to get a group for, and since the second coil is locked out, people often buy T5 to unlock it. Same goes for T9 and on as well depending on your server.

If SE wants to combat RMT, they should offer more services and items on their own Crysta market.. What was it, just 2 weeks ago that you can start gifting stuff from mog station? That's absurd.. Not to mention there's only like 5 items you can buy with Crysta.. If SE started to offer tradable items of value on their mog shop, we as the players will dictate the value of gil. and RMT will have little to stand on.

I.E. If SE introduced a very popular minion at 1000 crysta, then the playerbase will effectively judge how much gil 1000 crysta is worth, and the price of the minion and the $ price of gil will be matched. Since SE can produce infinite number of the said minion at no cost, and "RMT" is being taken care of between the players, gil selling companies will have a very hard time competing..


Of course, this would require some serious UI overhaul to actually allow people to trade things safely.. (1 million limit being lifted for example.. why is that limit in place anyway??) and make the mog shop items tradable..

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

there are also a lot of legitimate players who buy clears.

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These words do not belong in the same sentence. While I'm fairly sure there are people who have enough gil to buy a clear, it's not a "legitimate" clear in the sense that the player was carried, and in some cases had to actually turn over their account to such people to get it. That is no fun.

Any aspect of being carried makes me question why the person is playing the game at all. So "buying clears" just tells me that the person is wasting their money.

And yes it does encourage RMT, but I have a feeling that sellers wounld't touch gold buyers at all since Square Enix has nuked people's gil before.

Sometimes it's simply impossible to get a group together for a content that nobody wants to do.. All you can sell at that point is either your good will or gil. It's not being paid to carry you, rather more of a convenience fee.

T5 doesn't need a carry, with the gear we have it's easy peasy, but people just don't want to do T5.. So, if I have to pay a million or two (which only ends up being like 200-300k per person) I think it's a decent trade off.

I've personally never bought any runs because I'm not antsy to get to the end-game raids, but some people are.. To some, that's all they want to do once they hit lv 50.

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Originally Posted by Karen_Cerfrumos

So you kicked two actually good players from your FC out of some petty preconceptions.
All I can say, good job, they'll probably be better off without you.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

I feel like those 2 players are better off for having been kicked. that's just... intolerant and unappealing. Do you guys kick 3 star or higher crafters for the same reasoning?

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Since you know jack-shit about the situation, you would be far better off remaining silent instet they know they should not(and ad of proving yourself foolish. As for being better off, yes, my FC has beet better off, since we removed two sources of disruption from within.

Running a Free Company is not all cocktail parties and plaudits, sometimes people, even friends, do things they know they should not. That's when you have to put aside personal feelings and do what is right by everyone else. When people join a FC they accept the rules' and guidelines that FC lives by, if they break those, then there is a price to pay. No one, even long standing FC members who shaped those very rules and guidelines, is above the rules.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Since you know jack-shit about the situation, you would be far better off remaining silent instead of proving yourself foolish. As for being better off, yes, my FC has beet better off, since we removed two sources of disruption from within.

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Honestly, if you don't want people commenting on the situation, you shouldn't have brought it up.

Based on the information YOU gave us, and nothing else, it was a pretty mean-spirited thing to do. if there was more to the story, that would have changed that perception, you should have either brought it to the table, or left the entire situation out of it.

Based only on the information we have, two players were out trying to make an honest gil in the world (nothing illegal about selling runs), and they were kicked, because of witch hunting that they supported RMT by selling them. That's all the information we have. If there is more, we would be glad to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Running a Free Company is not all cocktail parties and plaudits, sometimes people, even friends, do things they know they should not. That's when you have to put aside personal feelings and do what is right by everyone else. When people join a FC they accept the rules' and guidelines that FC lives by, if they break those, then there is a price to pay. No one, even long standing FC members who shaped those very rules and guidelines, is above the rules.

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I'm the leader of an FC myself; I quite understand where you are coming from. Was "Do not sell runs" in any of the fc guidelines? if it was, then I retract my statement.