Why are Mundra's the only thing that suffer from lag?

Everything else works without issue. Mundra's it seems is the only set of skills that have issues if theres even the slightest issue with the network.

Because it is the only skill people try to hit three times in the duration of one global cool down. If you rush it, of course it is going to fuck up. I just wait a little more than half a second per mudra to accommodate for the lag and I nearly never have a server side problem.

Because mudras are the only skills on 0.5 sec back-to-back timer. Other skills run on 2.0-2.5 sec GCD or are weaved between them. That gives them 4-5 times the room for latency that mudras have.

I'd like to say, on good days, I can literally press the buttons I have assigned to mudras immediately with no lag at all and all of them will register in the right order and immediately. So you can rush it without screwing it up when lag isn't a problem.

Unfortunately, most of the time they do lag. But you can tell they are designed to be used as fast as humanly possible.

Only skill that depends on ping. you'd have to live nearish the datacentre to experience nin how it was intended.

Nin wont get changed sadly, if it's not broke for the JP players it's just not broke. Lets just hope future classes don't have issues like this.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I'd like to say, on good days, I can literally press the buttons I have assigned to mudras immediately with no lag at all and all of them will register in the right order and immediately. So you can rush it without screwing it up when lag isn't a problem.

Unfortunately, most of the time they do lag. But you can tell they are designed to be used as fast as humanly possible.

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Makes me wonder they have the CD anyway. Why not just remove the CD? Theres a character in Dota who has a similar mechanic to the Mundra. Except his orbs have no cooldown and you can spam them as fast as humanly possible.

The problem is, you can't use anything "as fast as humanly possible", only as fast as your connection allows you to. If you want to have an equal experience for a wide range of players, you'd make the timers longer, so that latency becomes a non-issue. If you took the CD away altogether, it'd make things worse.

That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying you can push buttons "as fast as humanly possible". I'm not referring to connection lag here. Connection has nothing to do with how fast you can press buttons.

Put simply, mudras on a good day react as fast as I can push buttons, without any delay. This is ideally how they are supposed to function as intended by SE. The intermittent lag is demonstrating the frailness of this design and how sensitive it is to even the smallest amount of latency.

They are designed to be used as fast as you can press the buttons, i.e. as fast as humanly possible. Good in theory, badly implemented.

They should not have all 3 signs on the same timer, it would make for no lag.

I mean, you can't button mash mudras even on JP servers. I live in Japan, and even I have to do mudras carefully. They are incredibly easy to mess up. Sometimes it feels like I pressed it but it didn't register, so I "skip" a step even though I did actually press it and so get a bunny or unwanted skill.

So the lag must be really horrible for others.... but yeah, can't do them that fast even with no lag.

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They are designed to be used as fast as you can press the buttons, i.e. as fast as humanly possible.

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No, they really aren't. They have a cd, albeit a fast one, but it's very easy to press them faster than that and screw it up.

Again, not talking about the CD at all.

Everyone using mudras should know there is a very short cd on them and take that into account. I'm only talking about AFTER the CD is over. Pressing them as fast as humanly possible taking into account only the CD.

Besides that fact, when I'm experiencing no delay, I can get all 3 mudras finished for a Huton before the global CD is off on other skills. They were designed to be this way. To be able to be pressed as fast as humanly possible while global CD is up, which is possible when there is no delay.

They were meant to be able to be pressed fast enough to be able to be weaved in while global CD is up.

I don't know about you, but Hallowed Ground does too still.

Crafting macros can easily break due to lag. So much so in fact that I have two copy's of each of my crafting macros, one with "perfect" wait times and one with "perfect +1" wait... Seriously need timing client side for a lot of this stuff to work as intended.

Anything you can do in queue'd quick succession is prone to screwing up because the game doesn't handle rollbacks/trust with the client very well at all.

I get it the odd time on BLM when I swiftcast Flare and the game decides I get to hardcast the Flare instead, despite the swiftcast buff clearing being up and ticking away. It's just more punishing for NIN because they can't correct the mistake, they're stuck getting the bunny or the wrong Mudra going out instead.

Titan Extreme says hi

It's extremely difficult to get the timing right, even with no lag. With other skills, I will press the button 2 or 3 times in order to queue the skill as soon as it becomes available, and I'm sure others do the same. Obviously you CANNOT do this with mudras or you're going to mostly likely double up by accident and either get bunny or a different ninjutsu. Pressing when you "think" the CD is over is dangerous. I always press, wait a split second to see if it goes through, if yes press the next one if not re-do. It's kind of annoying but that's mudra, you cannot rush even at optimal no lag.

As stated above, it happens with other stuff too (see benediction) it's just really really noticeable with mudras.

It's not really that difficult. The sound a mudra makes when it's successfully casted is what I go by before using the next one. That's how you can guarantee you don't mess up (unless you hit the wrong mudra entirely by accident or feel like lag is slowing you down too much and press them impulsively like I do occasionally). When I'm not lagging, the first mudra has casted by the time I use the second one and I don't even have to intentionally wait.

If your fingers are prepared, you can pretty much match the half second CD almost flawlessly and weave it in perfectly between the global CD (minus animations of course), assuming there's no lag. I'd like to think I have fast fingers, and when there's no delay, the CD really almost matches how fast I can press the buttons.

Mudras have a 0.5 second cooldown. If someone was able to reliably get the right mudra consistently in their play much faster than this without computer assistance such as with macros, I'd be genuinely surprised.

Mudra is not the only thing that suffers from lag, mudra just makes the issue a lot more apparent, sadly.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

Everything else works without issue. Mundra's it seems is the only set of skills that have issues if theres even the slightest issue with the network.

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Its called bad and lazy design. For me, with summoner, it is the worst job could ever be done. Starting using another class, rogue (thief), that, even if similar and both have some common trait, are 2 different jobs with their own skills, they tried to design this mudras system to give as many ninjutsu as possible given only the 5 jobs skills and not stay in line with other jobs. I would like to see Ninja and Summoner reworked with good design instead of having those trash jobs

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Titan Extreme says hi

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Oddly enough, Titan HM and EX never gave me lag issues. But NM? Lag harder than a tomato powered modem.

mudra suffer from packet loss in this game because of the super short timer they have, you might notice it on other classes when just lagging in general
your mudra's are lagging even though you pressed the combination right and they don't come out right or they skip the middle mudra of the 3 your pressed?
its packet loss, and its a problem on your end

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Originally Posted by LudvicStone

its packet loss, and its a problem on your end

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It is not packet loss, and it is not a problem on our end.

What I hate the most is when I've the mudras I wanted put in, cast Ninjutsu, the animation starts as it should and I queue my next skill, and then suddenly the animation aborts, the next skill executes instead and I have a bunny although I did everything right, just because lag decides to be a bitch. Showing us animations before the skill's actually through is what makes mudras such a pain to deal with. If it didn't PRETEND to work when it isn't working, we could properly adjust to the delay, but this fake-execution of skills leads to messed up mudras.

It's not the only skill that suffers from lag. Everything does. It's just the most noticeable with mudras because of the tight timing.

Benediction/hallowed ground suffer from the same bad coding.

Sacred soil suffers from the the same bad coding.

Virus suffers from the same bad coding.

There is a delay with everything in this game.

I'd prefer if they actually show you what you're attempting to use or have used. Most of the time when I try to input the second mudra and it lags out on me, the Ninjutsu icon stays in "Fuma Shuriken" and I have to guess which one registered first. Sometimes it's the former and sometimes it's the latter. Maybe some sort of display that shows you which one of the three you pressed actually registered?

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Originally Posted by reality_check

It's not the only skill that suffers from lag. Everything does. It's just the most noticeable with mudras because of the tight timing.

Benediction/hallowed ground suffer from the same bad coding.

Sacred soil suffers from the the same bad coding.

Virus suffers from the same bad coding.

There is a delay with everything in this game.

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It's not bad coding, it's intentional.

Animation is everything. Nothing happens until the animation is complete. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrAM

It's not bad coding, it's intentional.

Animation is everything. Nothing happens until the animation is complete. Simple as that.

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This is the dumbest rumour people have been perpetuating since beginning of ARR. It is sloppy coding. SE has never said that the delay on instant abilities is intended. If it is intended:

1. How come benediction/hallowed ground go on cooldown often when your target/yourself ended up dying? If it were intended to have a "delay" then one of two things should happen when you use hallowed ground. A: your survive and hallowed ground is on cooldown or B: you die and hallowed ground is still ready. This whole "I died and hallowed ground is on cooldown" is sloppy coding.

2. There is no "animation" for stepping into sacred soil. It takes a full 1-2 seconds often when you place a sacred soil for the buff to take effect.

3. Same with Stoneskin and Adloquium and Succor. There are instants where you can cast succor, the heal will be overheal, but the shield won't mitigate any of the incoming damage.

The combat in this game is riddled with bad coding. Mudras are just the most noticeable right now.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

1. How come benediction/hallowed ground go on cooldown often when your target/yourself ended up dying?

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CDs apply immediately, and the skill waits for the animation to complete, then applies the effect. It's why you see people getting healed for full HP after having died, since the animation was still playing out as the player died. They can tweak this on a per-skill basis though as evidenced by them making HG take around half a second less than it used to before the effect was applied.

Same rules go for the enemies too. It's why you can kill bombs at the tail-end of their self-destruct animation and no one receives damage, or the Mega Flare in T9 not dealing you damage until the animation finishes, even though the damage for the attack was queue'd at the start of it which you see by the LB bar shooting up immediately.

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2. There is no "animation" for stepping into sacred soil. It takes a full 1-2 seconds often when you place a sacred soil for the buff to take effect.

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Soil relies on the universal server tic for buff/debuffs before applying.

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

CDs apply immediately, and the skill waits for the animation to complete, then applies the effect. It's why you see people getting healed for full HP after having died, since the animation was still playing out as the player died.

Soil relies on the universal server tic for buff/debuffs before applying.

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Lol, exactly what I'm saying. You've explained how it works, now if you think those are smart coding designs to have in an action based MMORPG where you are punished for split second decisions, we are very much in disagreement. Especially where the standard in the industry is to have fidelity towards making the game seem like you're playing in real time.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

Makes me wonder they have the CD anyway. Why not just remove the CD? Theres a character in Dota who has a similar mechanic to the Mundra. Except his orbs have no cooldown and you can spam them as fast as humanly possible.

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Invoker ftw :O And i agree with this. Idk why this hasn't been looked at/changed to become more fluid in the game. Right now it feels like I'm losing dps due to having to wait extra times just to perform mudras properly.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Only skill that depends on ping. you'd have to live nearish the datacentre to experience nin how it was intended.

Nin wont get changed sadly, if it's not broke for the JP players it's just not broke. Lets just hope future classes don't have issues like this.

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Or for canadian players

I guess one way they can fix this is to not allow global cds disrupt your mudra combination. I know its meant to be weaved into a single gcd but some people cant attain that because of their lag. By doing this people can build their ninjutsu while going into their aeolian edge/shadow fang/dancing edge combo.

It's not going to be the optimized dps rotation but it can still be forgiving for people experiencing that lag.

Short answer is that it's not the only thing effected. I can think of a few other scenarios where activating certain abilities too quickly can screw you the same way. For example, it is possible to transpose on a blm and have it not function at all.

Hallowed Ground.

Benediction.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

it is possible to transpose on a blm and have it not function at all.

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Yeah, I've done that a few times too...

I have bad latency issues from time to time so I resorted to forking over some cash and using one of those ping lowering programs. It really helps when you're out in the world and you experience virtually no lag. My mudras come off without a hitch even when I think I might be spamming a tad bit too fast. However, when you go through the Duty Finder, it seems that the latency becomes a serious issue with or without any ping lowering programs. This could be a result in which dungeon environments are structurally crafted differently than the normal game world, so that it can accommodate various players from every corner of the earth. I wish ISPs would stop throttling (packet shaping), as this is the leading cause of latency.

Bane after third dot to only spread two anyone?

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Originally Posted by Chambers

Hallowed Ground.

Benediction.

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Those are just slow animation skills. It would be trivial to make them both act like lustrate, but I assume they keep them like that because they are both a form of "god mode" in a way. Also not sure if you have been playing since back then, but they were patched to activate faster. Before they were suuuuuuuuuper slow.

Mudras are actually affected by lag in the exact same way Benediction, Hallowed Ground, and Holmgang are, and in the same way all AOE is. All of these actions are tied to animations that play client-side, but need time to register serverside, so the animation can desync from what the server decides you're doing.

If you have a poor ping, this is a consistent delay; but when you deal with packet drops (the most common issue) it's random and unpredictable. HG/Bene actually *do* become slower-firing if your ping is higher or you lose packets, because the game client doesn't send the skill effect until it's done playing the animation. (Lots of skills work like this for the sake of both balance and visual flair - for instance, chaos thrust doesn't deal any damage until its animation completes.)

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Originally Posted by Krr

Mudras are actually affected by lag in the exact same way Benediction, Hallowed Ground, and Holmgang are, and in the same way all AOE is. All of these actions are tied to animations that play client-side, but need time to register serverside, so the animation can desync from what the server decides you're doing.

If you have a poor ping, this is a consistent delay; but when you deal with packet drops (the most common issue) it's random and unpredictable. HG/Bene actually *do* become slower-firing if your ping is higher or you lose packets, because the game client doesn't send the skill effect until it's done playing the animation. (Lots of skills work like this for the sake of both balance and visual flair - for instance, chaos thrust doesn't deal any damage until its animation completes.)

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As several people have stated in other post, does not matter if you are next to the server with 20 ping, or far away with 100+, the issue will still occur. People have tried to use WTFast (which does its job) to remedy the issue but it still cannot cure the problem. I do not get packet loss, especially not when I have wtfast running, and I still deal with the issue. Any skill in this game is delayed when one experiences packet loss, but its not just skills, EVERYTHING on your screen will be delayed. That is not what we are dealing with. Our problem is particularly with mudras. My main issue is the inconsistency based upon area. My mudras are actually slower in housing areas than they are in Mor Dhona. Some dungeons they are fast and fluid, other dungeons they are sluggish. My ping does not fluxuate so the only thing I can point at is the mudra. I have tried just about anything you can think of to mess with router, ethernet card and internal internet settings on my computer, I can not get it to be smooth.

a few things

wtfast does not completely eliminate packet loss. you will see a mitigation of packet loss, a significant one, but you will not have zero packet loss. while it is an effective program you should definitely not trust any of its numerical statistics as they're largely marketing points

packet loss to the server has nothing to do with ping

some game servers are proven to be laggier than others regardless of what your 'ping' to them is. aurum vale is regularly a hellhouse of lag when the rest of the game is fine. this isn't just a nin-specific problem - some zone instance servers are just inefficient pieces of trash and minor deviations are more apparent when you're trying to do sub-1s inputs in rapid succession

the problem is NOT specific to ninjas. i can tell you this as someone who raids, someone who's used 3 different vpn tunnelers, someone who mains the job and regularly uses like 3 different zones' dummies to do rotation experiments. it APPEARS specific to ninjas because deviations in server lag are more apparent with mudras, which, again, are half-second input windows that the NA servers do not handle correctly