Question about FFXIV v1.x - Hamlets

Can someone who played before ARR arrived please explain a bit about how the Hamlet defense system worked?

Thanks.

It was an instance that was pretty much like tower defense, it's been so long so I don't remember exactly what the setup was and completely how it worked.

There would be mobs that pour through the gate that would try to destroy the carts which you pretty much defended the entire time. You had a bunch of friendly NPCs that would attack them that were placed in between them and the various carts. The carts were basically defenseless. One strat would be to turtle with a bunch of WHMs to heal the NPCs so they didn't die (they do most of the DPS), a tank and I think a couple of gatherers and crafters. Gatherer jobs could pick up potions from objects around the field and turn them in to debuff the mobs. If you matched certain combinations of colors you would cause an effect to occur. IIRC, attack down was 3 reds. The crafters would make items to turn in to buff the NPCs I believe.

The tank would wait at the gate and grab the boss that would come through, and bring it to some empty location and kite it around for the rest of the time.

The reason for all this defense is to easily get a good amount of points which increased the loot you got at the end. There was a scoreboard at the end which determined what score you got and how good the loot could be. Stuff like keeping all the NPCs alive, killing all the mobs. killing limited time mobs that would spawn in some out of place location for a little while and would despawn if you didn't kill it. If you killed the boss, it would end, hence the kiting it around and killing it at the end so you could kill more waves of trash mobs to get more points, turn in more potion combinations, etc.

Before you even entered, there was a little turn in mini-game period that the entire server could participate in where you would turn in crafted items to increase the defense level of the hamlet being attacked. If someone in your group was in the top 3 places, you would get a higher chance at getting a seal from the hamlet. Not sure if it affected drops (maybe crafter offhands/personal loot to the person who is on the board only). Once this period ended, you could enter and actually do the Hamlet Defense. The seals were used for the relic in 1.0.

Might be forgetting a bunch of stuff but that was the gist of it from what I remember. There were certain other ways you could approach this but was one of the ones I took part in a lot.

The three hamlets were Hyrstmill, Aleport and Gold Bazaar. The locations still exist in 2.0, though. Most if not all the green crafted i55 militia gear in 2.0 were drops from hamlet defense.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

It was an instance that was pretty much like tower defense, it's been so long so I don't remember exactly what the setup was and completely how it worked.
**snip**
The three hamlets were Hyrstmill, Aleport and Gold Bazaar. The locations still exist in 2.0, though. Most if not all the green crafted i55 militia gear in 2.0 were drops from hamlet defense.

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Thanks! I thought it might be a survival mode type of defense play where you defend your base against a stream of attackers. Sounds like it could be a fun addition to the mix.

Any idea why it was omitted from ARR?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Thanks! I thought it might be a survival mode type of defense play where you defend your base against a stream of attackers. Sounds like it could be a fun addition to the mix.

Any idea why it was omitted from ARR?

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No idea, but there are a couple of FATEs that resemble something like it just without the gatherers/crafters and the point system. There is a FATE at Golden Bazaar in Eastern Thanalan where it gets attacked by waves of Amaljaa, (It also has similar music to what played during Hamlet Defense IIRC) and the other one is a FATE in Upper La Noscea where Poor Maid's Mill gets attacked by a bunch of kobolds. Not sure if there are any more than that.

It wasn't a very popular event in 1.0. In order to get a seal and therefore your relic, you had to grind THOUSANDS of items just to get enough points just so you would even have the SMALLEST chance at a seal. And other crafters could come in an knock you down a peg pretty much screwing you out of a seal after all that work. And you needed like 3 seals from each of the 3 hamlets. Basically it was too much work for little to no payoff. The militia gear was probably the most valuable items because they had the legendary +Enmity stat for tanks (there were no enmity combos back in the day).

So, if the Hamlets had not been a gate to the relic, would they have been more fun, and less annoying? I'm thinking more in the sense of this being something else to do that is different from other content. Something people do for fun, and not because they have to in order to obtain their relic.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Thanks! I thought it might be a survival mode type of defense play where you defend your base against a stream of attackers. Sounds like it could be a fun addition to the mix.

Any idea why it was omitted from ARR?

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Because it was horrible. It sounds like a good idea, but this is what it really boiled down to:

Pre-invasion: Everyone sits around by the NPC, waiting for the last second in an attempt to snipe first place so that they get the guaranteed drops. If you didn't have the backup of all your FC crafters (or tons of money to purchase items yourself), you would never place. At the last second, everyone would dump all their items and pray to God that they had the most.

Invasion Phase 1: While you could mix it up and do fun things like all DoW or all crafters, it rarely happened. Generally, it looked like this: Your party was comprised of 1 tank, 2-3 healers, 2-3 DoL and 2-3 DoH. DPS? Those were the NPCs. The tank would taunt mobs off the DoL and DoH whenever they pulled aggro (which was a lot) and pull enemies closer to the middle of the NPC archers so that you wouldn't have archers standing around doing nothing. The healers would stoneskin/regen the archers (SS/regen was extremely powerful in 1.x, nowadays you'd just heal like normal, probably plant a fairy in the middle of them). DoL would run around, picking up flasks and turning them in to cause debuffs. DoH would sit around, crafting stuff and turning it in for specific buffs.

Invasion Phase 2: The boss shows up. This is where things get...well, even more boring. The tank goes and picks up the boss and immediately pulls him far away from the archers, because as soon as the boss dies, the Hamlet is over, and to maximize points (and rewards), you need to let ALL the enemies die first. This generally meant the tank would run around a tree for 20 minutes, or run up and down a cave for, or just run around. Whatever. With the exception of the cave, he didn't even need heals, because the boss would never reach him. Everyone else just continued as usual. Finally, you finished off the other enemies, pulled the boss into the archers, and won. Hurray.

TLDR: It was boring as all heck. It would have to be completely redone. The idea was good, the implementation was not.

I miss my militia gig.

What people aren't mentioning so far is that, other than increasing the final rewards for when the "defence" part started, the "stock-up" part would also reward you. In 1.0 teleports were paid for with anima, which was a self-refreshing currency. You'd cap out at 100 anima and use a certain amount based on how far away the port was. Originally the system was absolutely atrocious but with later fixes and the addition of favourite points and the ability to set both an aetheryte return and an inn room return, it became an excellent system.

Handing in items at the hamlets before the actual event started would give you back anima. It wasn't a lot if you only handed in a few things, but all of the items you could craft or gather could be gathered or crafted in large amounts with little effort. For instance, fishers would hand in Young Indigo Herring, but back then different fish had different catch "caps," so you could catch up to a maximum of 10 young indigo herring from a single reel. It took around 80 to go from 0 anima to 100 anima, so near the end I was able to keep my entire linkshell's anima at maximum for very little effort.

I still have around 55 stacks of young indigo herring. I'm hoping they'll be used for something in the future.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

Because it was horrible.
**snip**
TLDR: It was boring as all heck. It would have to be completely redone. The idea was good, the implementation was not.

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I'm trying to read into the replies to understand, but it sounds like the battles were essentially a passive experience with the NPCs doing the fighting and crafters/gatherers feeding them with supplies, a healer to keep people from dying and a tank to corral the enemies. Sound about right?

Hmm...based on the replies in this topic it sounds like it could be an excellent addition to the game - if implemented differently. In other words, not as a gate to the relic, but with a lot more direct action from DoW/DoM instead of the passive NPCs do the work aspect.

I guess it was a way to get crafters and gatherers involved in a combat event. I can't help thinking that most combat biased players would rather be doing the combat, and most crafter/gatherer players would rather be working on their latest attempt to corner the market.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

snip because CHARACTER LIMITS OMG

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Yep. Like I said, it was a good idea, but badly implemented. I think it could be really fun if improved and added in the future. Like, if they did a 24-man raid hamlet, with DoW/M/L/H all having to do their jobs, and without a horrible "twiddle your thumbs for 20 more minutes while all the enemies die" system, it could be a lot more fun.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

Yep. Like I said, it was a good idea, but badly implemented. I think it could be really fun if improved and added in the future. Like, if they did a 24-man raid hamlet, with DoW/M/L/H all having to do their jobs, and without a horrible "twiddle your thumbs for 20 more minutes while all the enemies die" system, it could be a lot more fun.

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Indeed. There's an idea rolling around in my head that would fit well with this, I'll have to put pen to paper, or rather finger to keyboard and write it up before long.

Besieged style would be more interesting in my opinion.
Need a penalty for loosing the battle, like in beseiged NPCs could be kidnapped so you no longer had a free warp between expansion area and the main continent, and if the enemy got the Astral Candesence the teleport system in the expansion area no longer worked till it was returned.

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Originally Posted by Kisshu

Besieged style would be more interesting in my opinion.
Need a penalty for loosing the battle, like in beseiged NPCs could be kidnapped so you no longer had a free warp between expansion area and the main continent, and if the enemy got the Astral Candesence the teleport system in the expansion area no longer worked till it was returned.

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A beseiged-style thing could be cool - but bear in mind, I think one of the core concepts here is getting an event where crafters and gatherers are active participants, whereas Besieged is basically pure combat. That, in my mind, is one of the things that made Hamlet unique - it had DoM/DoW working alongside DoL and DoH to save the day. It's a shame that it was implemented so poorly in 1.0, but 1.0 had a lot of cool ideas that wound up being implemented badly.

Although, here's an idea... You know how Beseiged had all kinds of powerful and unique temporary consumable items players could get? Perhaps that's how it could work: Besieged at its core, but to get these powerful items, DoW and DoM need to stock up at a vendor - a vendor who starts off with no goods. Crafters have to create the items, gathering materials from a stock - which ALSO starts off empty, and needs to be filled by gatherers.

Perhaps there are other things crafters and gatherers could do as well; Miners and Botanists could tear down / chop through enemy fortifications and siege weapons while being defended by DoW and DoM. Crafters could produce and/or repair allied siege weapons. That kind of thing. Fishers could, I dunno, stand on a balcony and fish foes' helmets off. XD

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I think one of the core concepts here is getting an event where crafters and gatherers are active participants, whereas Besieged is basically pure combat.

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"Besieged" in FFXI isn't limited to the battle (even if it is the main event) : the power of beastmen are determined by some factors influenced by players (beastmen killed, astral mirror destroyed, etc.) and it's easy to imagine what crafters could do in this system (repair buildings, repair weapons, make medicine, etc.)
And it's actually what happens in "Campaign", which is the better system.

Btw, we need a campaign-like system in FFXIV, because it's one of the few concepts that can actually legitimise the "MMO" appellation.

The old Lodestone article is still up for it for folks interested.
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...mletdef01.html

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Originally Posted by Genz

Snip.

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Battle for zones, if the players hold the zones they function as normal.
If the enemy holds the zones they main push against the city (Besieged style event with hero cutscenes)
The zones looses a lot of functions, like no camp(alternate teleport point), no vendor&mender, no guild leve turnins, make it so players care to hold zones.
Gatherers supply wood and stone to build defences along with fish for food(keep up strength) while crafters supply armor(+npc def), weapons(+npc att) and potions(which players get a supply of in battle)
Fight along side NPC units(both basic and special heroes)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm trying to read into the replies to understand, but it sounds like the battles were essentially a passive experience with the NPCs doing the fighting and crafters/gatherers feeding them with supplies, a healer to keep people from dying and a tank to corral the enemies. Sound about right?

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Not quite. Well, you could go in with any class combination, so you could go in with all battle jobs, or all crafter jobs, for example, but generally folks did this:

1 tank
2 healers
2 dps
1 crafter
2 gatherer

Or something like that. People definitely brought dps to this and killed the monsters. If you let the monsters kill certain objectives, you were going to have a bad time. People only brought crafter/gatherers because the buffs they put up were pretty crazy. I think the content was more fun than it's given credit for. It's interesting that this, along with choco escorts and old school behests, were stripped entirely (as well as making levequests even close to viable past using them to level up).

Hamlet Defence guide for White Mages: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qOc...o&spfreload=10

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Originally Posted by Vaer

It was an instance that was pretty much like tower defense, it's been so long so I don't remember exactly what the setup was and completely how it worked.

There would be mobs that pour through the gate that would try to destroy the carts which you pretty much defended the entire time. You had a bunch of friendly NPCs that would attack them that were placed in between them and the various carts. The carts were basically defenseless. One strat would be to turtle with a bunch of WHMs to heal the NPCs so they didn't die (they do most of the DPS), a tank and I think a couple of gatherers and crafters. Gatherer jobs could pick up potions from objects around the field and turn them in to debuff the mobs. If you matched certain combinations of colors you would cause an effect to occur. IIRC, attack down was 3 reds. The crafters would make items to turn in to buff the NPCs I believe.

The tank would wait at the gate and grab the boss that would come through, and bring it to some empty location and kite it around for the rest of the time.

*snip*

Before you even entered, there was a little turn in mini-game period that the entire server could participate in where you would turn in crafted items to increase the defense level of the hamlet being attacked. If someone in your group was in the top 3 places, you would get a higher chance at getting a seal from the hamlet. Not sure if it affected drops (maybe crafter offhands/personal loot to the person who is on the board only). Once this period ended, you could enter and actually do the Hamlet Defense. The seals were used for the relic in 1.0.

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More info:

Hamlet Defense - Final Fantasy Wiki

Wow, content in the game that actually is INCLUSIVE of crafters and gatherers? That gave you points for stuff like using emotes and specific party/equipment setups?

THIS is how you innovate in MMOs. It's sad that everything else was so broken (and the fact that modern MMO players don't like 'different') that the game failed, because stuff like this is awesome.

Square-Enix: Bring back this sort of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Hmm...based on the replies in this topic it sounds like it could be an excellent addition to the game - if implemented differently. In other words, not as a gate to the relic, but with a lot more direct action from DoW/DoM instead of the passive NPCs do the work aspect. .

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HAVE YOU NOT BEEN READING PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF THE WARDEN DO NOT SUGGEST THEY BRING THIS BACK Unless they take away the point system.

You need to understand that there was a lot more lag back then in 1.0 and yes the tank did get hit and it was for a lot of damage not to mention you can't be hitting it because everything else had to die first for the full credit if they get rid or the point system then sure could be fun but having it as a gate for stuff noo

I'd like to bring it back. My proposed changes:

General:
Enemies attack. They will have random objectives you have to figure out in battle. They include: destroying a structure, kidnapping an NPC, sabotaging defenses, etc.
Each archtype would be involved in some way.

DoW/M:
These guys jobs are obvious, find out what the enemies objectives are by watching where they go and what they attack and prevent them from doing so.

DoH:
Craft special items to give to the Hamlet quartermaster. The item handed in will give different benefits depending on the crafter class. These act as buffs/abilities the DoW/M can use. Example: A BSM makes a special sword and hands it in to the quartermaster. All DoW now have an ability called "Sharp Sword" with increases dmg by x% for n seconds. But it only has as many charges as the BSM handed in items. If the BSM only handed in one item, "Sharp Sword" only has one charge per DoW. The BSM would need to hand in more items for the DoW to get more charges. ALC can make potions that the defenders can use, ARMs can give the tanks a DEF ability, etc.

Crafters also build and maintain structures around the camp. They build walls and towers that can help keep mobs out. As they get damaged, the crafters will have to decide what's more important: feeding the defenders ability charges, or keeping the defenses active.

DoL:
Gather mats for the crafters. Fed to the quartermaster to be given to the crafters.

That's all I can think of up the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

There would be mobs that pour through the gate that would try to destroy the carts which you pretty much defended the entire time. You had a bunch of friendly NPCs that would attack them that were placed in between them and the various carts. The carts were basically defenseless..

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Sounds a lot like that Quirin fate on that bridge near dry bone

I remember enjoying hamlet defence at the start, it only got boring and annoying after running it hundreds of times. If it was brought back it could easily be fixed by removing the terrible drop rates and server group point system, couple that with some new and interesting things for DoL/DoH to do and I think it would be very fun.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

It was an instance that was pretty much like tower defense, it's been so long so I don't remember exactly what the setup was and completely how it worked.

There would be mobs that pour through the gate that would try to destroy the carts which you pretty much defended the entire time.

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Sounds like the wings of the goddess tower defense in FFXI.
Monsters would attack from different angles till you defeated them or they ran away.

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Originally Posted by Genz

Btw, we need a campaign-like system in FFXIV, because it's one of the few concepts that can actually legitimise the "MMO" appellation.

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Going forwards with 3.0 it would fit into the general theme of the xpansion of being a war between Ishgard and Dravania. Which could expand into 4.0 if they take us towards Ala Mhigo and progress the conflict with Garleans. As l;ong as, what happened many times in FFXI, you aren't waiting for ages (like upto an hour) for another wave of mobs to appear XD

Also if they did it the same as FFXI where you had to flag, unflagged meant no mob aggro, they could add them to all zones. Also to not turn it into a hunt type zerg fest some changes would need to be done too. Maybe having mutliple pop at the same time to spread the population around with some form of limits so you couldnt mass zerg one, go to next, mass zerg that, rinse repeat.

Had another thought. How would you stop it turning into a matter of stacking BLMs and just AEing them all down in seconds?

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Sounds like the wings of the goddess tower defense in FFXI.
Monsters would attack from different angles till you defeated them or they ran away.

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When they decided to turn up XD

You could be waiting upwards of an hour between waves for them to actually make an appearance :S

I enjoyed it, as a healer :) Much movement, more team play and discussion.

Can see nothing wrong with adding it.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Which could expand into 4.0 if they take us towards Ala Mhigo and progress the conflict with Garleans.

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Since we're going into the unexplored northwest section of the continent, going into the unexplored northeast (and final) section of the continent makes so much sense, that I absolutely believe that this will NOT happen for the second expansion. We will go somewhere else entirely, and come back to this for the 3rd or 4th expansion.