Yoshi P, is this what you wanted? (Terra Branford Blues)

Welp, it happened. After 3 weeks, a ballpark 650-700 kills, and 145 Ultros cards, Terra dropped for me tonight.

http://i.imgur.com/ZsZolG4.png
(Only 134 shown since I didn't start keeping my cards until after my first farm session.)

I made many friends, and even some enemies along the way. I mostly stayed patient but sometimes lost my cool. I questioned my sanity, my faith, my life choices, and at one point I even submitted a bug report.

This wasn't a totally new phenomenon. It took me something like 25 windows to catch a Bombardfish of all fishes. I lost 34 Neptos before I finally caught one. Bahamut took me 18 hours of Elmer and one zodiac item took me 42 runs of Stone Vigil.

I know I don't need the card, I just wanted it. But to see a hundred Terras drop in the very same fights I was in, to see person after person join my party to get Terra within a couple kills, it ate away at me. Most people just laughed or cried with me, but some teased and taunted. And what was I getting through all of this? Feeble light and 15 soldiery per kill.

The thing is, I don't believe this should happen. Is this what Yoshi P wants? For some people to suffer while achieving their in-game goals? Nobody should have to play for hundreds of hours to accomplish the very same thing that was accomplished by thousands of others after only a few minutes. This game needs a safety net for their RNG. I wouldn't be mad if I knew Terra had an abysmal drop rate, but she doesn't. I was just abysmally unlucky.

FWIW, in my experience, Terra seemed to be roughly a 5-10% drop rate and Ultros is about 20-25%. The actual chance of not getting her in my first 650 kills at 5% drop rate was 3.3x10^-15, or .0000000000033%.

In conclusion, the horror stories are true, and you don't want to wish them on your worst enemy. If you don't believe it, then it simply hasn't happened to you... yet.

Took me 48 Ultros cards before i got Terra was over 300 runs I was doing my nexus lights on ninja though so wasn't so bad in the end but 134+... :(

If the card exchange MGP was worth more then it would of been alot better but 10 MGP per Ultros is a little low you can't even buy a gold pack with all those Ultros.

Terra felt more like 1-2% though I only ever saw 1 other person say they got it in all the runs I did.

I totally feel your pain, after all my pony farming. I haven't gotten round to farming Bartz' and Terra's cards yet, but congratulations.

Holy crap.

I saw you several times during my first 30 or so runs. I have largely given up on the drops from trials myself, but this alone should stand to show that this needs to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by thendcomes

Is this what Yoshi P wants? For some people to suffer while achieving their in-game goals? Nobody should have to play for hundreds of hours to accomplish the very same thing that was accomplished by thousands of others after only a few minutes.

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I 100% agree with you. With that said, where do you draw the line? This experience is apart of almost every faucet of the game. I've spent 23 hours farming atma right now & have only had 2 drop. Took me 64 wins against Elmer to get Bahamut card & nearly 1500 for Gaius. I still have yet to win a 3,600 or 10,000 MGP mini-cacpot simply because the cards I receive do not allot me the opportunity. I do believe there should be a safety net, but the 1% will be vehemently opposed to it & thus it will not happen.

I saw you a few times in there lol, had to cheese it a several times because the other dps couldn't do the imp thing. I was a bit luckier with mine but honestly after the 10th run through I was already hating it and would watch a movies while barely paying attention. I already posted in your reddit thread, but just to voice myself here too, I also agree that the RNG in this game is ridiculous. It's supposed to be a game, and it's supposed to be fun. Running 1k runs while someone gets the drop on their first run is not fun, it's extremely frustrating. All this does is make people hate the content they are running, hate the new people they are running with, and hate the game in general.

And people who say that it's just RNG or optional content need to get it through their heads that it's supposed to be a game and it's supposed to be fun. Some people have fun collecting cards, especially ones that are needed in tourneys. The one and done vs 1k runs thing needs to stop. They need to clamp the standard deviation (like drops only happen in runs 25-50, and 50+ it's guaranteed), or use a token system or something.

I loved the game, but that's past tense. I'm a pretty loyal player, but when I was farming Gaius after probably 15+h of game time and seeing people get their cards in under an hour, I seriously started to think about quitting for a few months.

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Originally Posted by Zanarken

I 100% agree with you. With that said, where do you draw the line? This experience is apart of almost every faucet of the game. I've spent 23 hours farming atma right now & have only had 2 drop. Took me 64 wins against Elmer to get Bahamut card & nearly 1500 for Gaius. I still have yet to win a 3,600 or 10,000 MGP mini-cacpot simply because the cards I receive do not allot me the opportunity. I do believe there should be a safety net, but the 1% will be vehemently opposed to it & thus it will not happen.

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That's a really good question, and not one I have an answer to. Square on occasion has said that when they planned the RNG steps of the relic, they had in mind a certain amount of time that they felt was sufficient for players to spend on each step. Individual steps may take longer than others, but overall the length of time would approach a mean that they were comfortable with.

So if they know what the mean will be for the overall experience, maybe just chop it off based on standard deviations. If the process is involved over many steps (dungeon atmas, relic atmas, card atmas), maybe once your total farm time or your total win/kills/victories reaches a critical mass, make everything after that 100%. Maybe just cutting off individual steps after one standard deviation is the answer. I don't know if that's a viable solution for this game, and it could even present more problems than it solves.

I agree, I was one of the lucky ones I suppose. I didn't even know about this Terra card. I went into the fight looking for the Typhoon/Ultros card. First win I hear the click and it was Terra. I was like da fuq...I got some grats and some FU's. The RNG or drop rate on it is stupid on all cards. It took me another 40ish runs to get the duo card, in which time I received a few more Terras.

Drop rates on some of these need to be fixed for sure. Gaius, Imperial has funded me well and gotten my MGP up there, but he has never given me the card. I run two Praetoriums, get card on second run....after hours of farming imperial.

/confused

Got it on first run, its popped up in the roulettes 3times i got both cards and minion

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

I loved the game, but that's past tense. I'm a pretty loyal player, but when I was farming Gaius after probably 15+h of game time and seeing people get their cards in under an hour, I seriously started to think about quitting for a few months.

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Momoko, I know you've been playing since the beginning, so this is especially meaningful. I really wonder about the lengths to which they will test our passion for, and our loyalty to, the game. This recent trial combined with how the RNG has ramped up over the patches, I've put serious thought into quitting as well, but I've bitched out every time. Maybe we're just suckers and SE knows we'll always come crawling back in the end.

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Originally Posted by thendcomes

So if they know what the mean will be for the overall experience, maybe just chop it off based on standard deviations.

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Here is the problem:

From the programmer's perspective it is a consistent random formula because when you look at ALL PLAYERS drop rates, there is a clear pattern and enough drops are happening per hour (or whatever criteria they are using as the barometer) that the devs feel the system is balanced. Programmers however... tend to be the absolute worst people at designing any kind of content involving randomness because they look at it purely from a mathematical perspective, not from the individual user experience level. This is because of the unique way engineers think about problems; they tend to take a top-down approach rather than a bottom-up approach. They tend to start with "this is how our numbers will work" rather than "this is how the user experience should be".

As such, you have individuals like yourself who get completely screwed in the process. I'm in a similar predicament. Meanwhile, there are those who are blessed by the RNG gods, who have everything imaginable showered down upon them. It has become so commonplace they believe they are entitled to it & that everything is working as intended. The mere mention of a safety net, or any mechanism that might curb this disparity is quickly struck down by these individuals.

Feeling the OP. Farming Swift for the 5 star card (countless windows played), Terra (40~ish Dragon's Neck fights) and Gaius (1k+ matches won and a few Praetorium's thrown in) and I'm feeling some serious burn right now.

It just wouldn't be FFXIV without RNG. The game's motto should really be changed to "Progression is for the lucky." They can't even stop themselves in press conferences. They had to throw RNG into their PAX audiences.

Personally, I'm having a similar problem with Moggle Mog XII card. I have been running nothing but Thornmarch HM and Thornmarch EX since I got my Zodiac (though far, far fewer of the latter), because I thought, "Well, this will be nice. The Mahatma are easy to fill, and I can run whatever I'd like for them, so I can do my Zeta while I farm for cards." A week later, I've never had HM in bonus window, I've only made two "successful" (read: running once or twice) EX "farm" parties, the card has never dropped for me, yet I'm almost done with my 8th Mahatma.

MEX might be a higher drop rate, but every time I get a MEX party going, it takes 2+ hours for it to fill because everyone hates the fight, they only want to farm it for two runs, then everyone who gets their card (sometimes in both runs) drops after the second time because they're so sick of running Thornmarch from spamming HM that they want to be done with it forever. Meanwhile, I, who didn't get my card, am now faced with the option of grinding MHM for another unproductive week (or more) or wasting my entire available gameplay time trying to find more people who A) watch the enemy HP bars/can control their urge to kill every moogle they touch before all of them are weakened; B) actually want to do the fight; and C) will hopefully stick around for longer than it takes for them and them alone to get their card, because when one-two people leave the party, everyone else drops out like they're abandoning the Titanic.

I genuinely consider leaving this game over this card. It might sound like an overreaction to some, but when you only have so much time to play the game, spending all of it grinding your wheels and getting nowhere on content that is meaningful to you is extremely demoralizing. Yoshi, it's really time to take RNG off your friend list. It's a toxic relationship that's starting to affect people around you.

A lot of people would say that the RNG grind is just a part of playing an MMO, but it is a little ridiculous at this stage. The whole premise of "We don't want you to collect all the legendary cards too quickly" is completely moronic. You can't even use them, so holding them behind low drop rates just artificially extends playtime. In order to actually collect all the cards is looking to be a monolithic waste of your life for something that literally has no effect and can't even be used for fun. If this method of item acquisition continues I foresee a lot of people jumping ship.

It consumes so much time to gather the over-expensive MGP to buy the packs that only give the same 3 cards that have terrible trade in values in order to get that stupid card that only comes from the packs, I have to ask why? I've dropped over 75k on card packs, and I haven't got anything higher than two stars (all gold packs). Why is playtime being valued so much higher than fun content?

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

I loved the game, but that's past tense. I'm a pretty loyal player, but when I was farming Gaius after probably 15+h of game time and seeing people get their cards in under an hour, I seriously started to think about quitting for a few months.

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dont beat the garlean for the gaius card, beat him for the mgp
you'll get plenty of them on your way to the 1mil

I got my first card after 1.5k wins, but I didnt care because I knew I had to beat him 10k times anyway
I just got my 6th gaius card and I'm not even half way to the cloud card =/

same with kan-e-senna, I'd to beat the npc several 100 times for my first senna card, yesterday I got my 21th and it just became some free mgp, nothing else

theres no point in hurrying with all these cards, you still have months of time until new ones get released

The problem isn't getting gaius card or terra's card, it's the way you are supposed to get them. Potentially 1000 Ultros & Typhoon battles? Thank you, but I think I'm gonna have to pass. It's the same damn old thing, they release new content with ridiculous rate drops (not even 1%, probably 0.5% etc. we are getting to sick levels), and then, they trash it out a few months later. Wanna bet something that Terra's Branford card will be almost given for free in a few months once it goes onto the "outdated content shelf"?
I'm honestly starting to get tired of the same thing over and over again, they have millions of ways to keep people busy without forcing them to get through these brutally horrendous drop rates which involve spamming a boss hundreds of times. As much as I like this game, and as much as I think Yoshi is such a cool person, I'm at the verge of cancelling my sub, I strongly feel they are making a brutal abuse of the RNG.

Congrats Octopus. Finally you got it.

Completely agree - pure RNG is disgusting. Anything that you can't influence at all should have a safeguard implemented so people can't get heavily screwed over. Grind is fine - but grind should be fair and proper, you should be inching closer to your goal if you are dedicated, no matter how unlucky you are. What should be rewarded is work and dedication - not just random luck.

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Originally Posted by thendcomes

Momoko, I know you've been playing since the beginning, so this is especially meaningful. I really wonder about the lengths to which they will test our passion for, and our loyalty to, the game. This recent trial combined with how the RNG has ramped up over the patches, I've put serious thought into quitting as well, but I've bitched out every time. Maybe we're just suckers and SE knows we'll always come crawling back in the end.

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I feel you pain i stopped doing dragons neck after 200 runs, if it wasnt for my friends in game i would have been gone a long time ago :) Good friend make the RNG drops not so bad!

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Originally Posted by QuinceTaru

Good friend make the RNG drops not so bad!

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The problem is that the nature of RNG makes playing with friends a pain in the long run. If one friend gets their drop after a while, and the other still didn't get it after ages of trying, the former friend will eventually get tired of rerunning the RNG content over and over after they got what they needed, and would instead like to focus on RNG grind of something they didn't get yet.

Zodiac is a good example of that. The fastest way to complete it is to run solo - because if you run it with friends, and you get your drop before your friend, you're stuck re-running a dungeon that has become worthless to you until your friend gets the drop as well. Rather than promoting playing together with people, it promotes selfishness.

I completely feel the OP's pain. Pure RNG is just awful. We need a change to the Drop System:

A Weighted Random Number Generator System. A bunch of people brought this up a while ago, when Atma were first introduced (and the % was even lower than today). Specifically:

1. RNG Drop Rate + Increase Percentage(%) Chance for [Item] drop for Every Successful Clear (FATE, Dungeon, etc.), Until it Finally Drops.

For example, let's say the starting Drop Rate is 1% for an Atma. If you do a FATE and nothing drops, Square should add, say, +2% to your chance, so the NEXT FATE you do now has 3% (Base 1%+2%) chance. So at the most, you'd have to do 50 FATEs in the zone (+2% x 50 tries) to finally get your Atma Stone (if you had the worst luck).

This allows Yoshi P to keep that "Random Number Generator" / "Lottery" feel and grind (ugh), while providing a safety (and sanity) net for Players. So if you have bad luck, at least eventually you'll get the Item to drop within a reasonable amount of time. The Actual Bonus Percentage per Win/Clear can be balanced to whatever feels fair (+2%, +5%, etc.).

This Hybrid approach is the best of both worlds. It's frustrating that Yoshi P and the Dev Team refuse to consider something like this; and just stick with a simple, archaic "Pure RNG Only" system (just keep banging your head against the wall, "rolling the dice" and hope one day it drops). It's awful.

Examples like yours of repeating the Ultros fight HUNDREDS of times before you finally got the Terra Triple Triad Card to drop is absurd. Seriously SE?!

This needs to change in 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Zanarken

[B]H
As such, you have individuals like yourself who get completely screwed in the process. I'm in a similar predicament. Meanwhile, there are those who are blessed by the RNG gods, who have everything imaginable showered down upon them. It has become so commonplace they believe they are entitled to it & that everything is working as intended. The mere mention of a safety net, or any mechanism that might curb this disparity is quickly struck down by these individuals.

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There are many ways for workarounds. You could even make it an active one. Some kind of personal "Luck Limit Break", slowly building up or just a safety net inside the code (like the one above this post), to smoothen this brutal differences a bit.

People gotta make their own safety nets by telling themselves "I don't need this optional item in my life." If I get lucky, great, but if I don't, just move on to something else and accept that it's meant to be rare.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

People gotta make their own safety nets by telling themselves "I don't need this optional item in my life." If I get lucky, great, but if I don't, just move on to something else and accept that it's meant to be rare.

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Or by telling themselves "I don't need this ***** RNG/grind game.", maybe? Because any single computer game is as optional as every item in it. People try to help here, by telling, what they dislike, giving Square a chance to fix it. To just tell them, that they should accept it means to tell them, that they should just leave this game. Pretty sure not the dream solution of Square.

Darn, and I thought that I was having bad luck, but you guys really have it bad. I did my fair share of farming for the Terra card too, but I didn't came close to more than 20 fights for it, and the Onion Knight dropped in less than 10 runs, so I guess I got really lucky.

I'm glad that you where able to obtain your card OP and wish the best of luck to anyone out there still trying to get theirs.

For those in this situation, I'd recommend against trading in your stack of cards for MGP until after 2.55. MGP rewards are being "adjusted" in 2.55, and cards may yield more after the changes. They certainly won't yield less!

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

People try to help here, by telling, what they dislike, giving Square a chance to fix it. To just tell them, that they should accept it means to tell them, that they should just leave this game.

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I don't mean to dissuade people from giving constructive feedback. Some feedback is not realistic, and people hurt themselves by unnecessarily going to extremes in a futile effort to beat RNG.

It's unrealistic to expect that all players should be entitled to all items. Some things are deliberately made to be rare. If you go in with a mentality that because one person won a lottery, I have a right to win too, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Now if main scenario progress was gated by the Terra card, it would be a problem, but since that is not the case, it should be seen as a rare bonus that is not intended to be handed out to 100% of players, and nobody should make themselves ill by spending too long trying to get it.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

The problem isn't getting gaius card or terra's card, it's the way you are supposed to get them. Potentially 1000 Ultros & Typhoon battles? Thank you, but I think I'm gonna have to pass. It's the same damn old thing, they release new content with ridiculous rate drops (not even 1%, probably 0.5% etc. we are getting to sick levels), and then, they trash it out a few months later. Wanna bet something that Terra's Branford card will be almost given for free in a few months once it goes onto the "outdated content shelf"?
I'm honestly starting to get tired of the same thing over and over again, they have millions of ways to keep people busy without forcing them to get through these brutally horrendous drop rates which involve spamming a boss hundreds of times. As much as I like this game, and as much as I think Yoshi is such a cool person, I'm at the verge of cancelling my sub, I strongly feel they are making a brutal abuse of the RNG.

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What's wrong with the harsh beginning payout then flood of goods later method? I'd also like to know what the millions of ways to keep people busy (in an MMORPG) is without utilizing RNG and keeping the playerbase from being bored with nothing to do. I'm serious on the inquiry, because I agree about the ridiculous RNG bit being over the top (given how poor the majority base is at pacing themselves lol), but I don't agree that you think there are so many options available realistically doable for their 1-3 month content windows lol.

That's really unfortunate :/

I gave up on triad simply because I just found chocobo racing way more fun (it has its own fair bit of annoying rng, but nothing like this).

Just hearing about all the farming some people need to do to get their cards then thinking back on all the rng drop rate crap I dealt with during my relic and I just nope'd out of triad.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

It's unrealistic to expect that all players should be entitled to all items. Some things are deliberately made to be rare. If you go in with a mentality that because one person won a lottery, I have a right to win too, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

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Nobody expects that, and nobody has that mentality. I hate to be the "straw man guy" (really I do), but... straw man!

The thing about Terra is that it's not very rare. Like my OP said, if it was very rare, I wouldn't have cared. I'd have known what I'm getting into, and if it took 1000 runs to get a 0.1% drop, then that would be satisfying. It's because it's not rare that I got all worked up and put myself through all of that. More than anything, I just wanted to get my story out for visibility of a broken (IMO) system and support for others who are going or have gone through the same stuff.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

snip

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What Kiara has proposed is a very good idea. Read what he posted. Also, I'm not saying they should completely remove the RNG factor out of the game, what I'm saying is that it is not right that 90% of the relevant things in this game are heavily RNG based. Think about it:

1 - Relic quest? Brutal amounts of RNG.
2 - Raiding? Fair amounts of RNG (you know, loot).
3 - Master crafting? Fair amounts of RNG (basically, hasty touch, tricks of the trade and rapid synthesis).
4 - Big Fishing? LoL.
5 - Triple Triad? Random rule, chaos rule and horrendous drop rates from both NPCs and battles.
6 - Vanity items such as ponies? RNG again.
7 - Chocobo racing? A pokemon + laggy mario kart mix. RNG as its finest.
8 - Even freaking gardening has a slight aomunt of RNG involved.

Mining and botany are the only two relevant things of the top of my head that do not involve RNG.

MY LIEGE.

Glad you finally got it, at least. I know I ran with you a few dozen times and still haven't gotten mine.

But then again I'm starting to login every day and not get any of my goals done. especially when it comes to card drops and zodiac drops. I don't mind RNG, I usually love it, but I'm feeling severely overwhelmed by it lately.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

That's really unfortunate :/

I gave up on triad simply because I just found chocobo racing way more fun (it has its own fair bit of annoying rng, but nothing like this).

Just hearing about all the farming some people need to do to get their cards then thinking back on all the rng drop rate crap I dealt with during my relic and I just nope'd out of triad.

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I'm far from one of those people that need to do things immediately. That is, if it involves a lot of raids/DF to get said thing lol. I gave the Terra/Bartz attempts a few days (maybe a combined total run of 50 times), then just said **** it. I know how this stuff works, so I'll eventually see it from potential nerfs or an ease of access to the RNG (e.g. being high enough level to solo, assuming such a thing were possible). Likewise, I really don't care that much to bother. My only long term goal for Triad was to hit the 60 card limit and obtain certain cards for use (like Scions cards). I'm perfectly fine with solo grinds, which is exactly how I got all of my cards (besides Onion Knight, Sahagin, and Greg), just really don't care for group ones in the case of the cards lol.

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

For those in this situation, I'd recommend against trading in your stack of cards for MGP until after 2.55. MGP rewards are being "adjusted" in 2.55, and cards may yield more after the changes. They certainly won't yield less!

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Heh,

I have about 400 Livia/Rhit cards combined ~190 Nero cards, 1 Gaius, 6 Odin cards (helped some friends with the run), and ~3 Ultros/Typhon cards (because I'm sadistic and actually like that Trial even though I got Terra after about 60 runs....I like saving the run when DPS doesn't do it right).

I shared the exact same thoughts as you as soon as I heard about the adjustments. If they don't increase, they absolutely won't be worse. MGP either way :D

Grats OP, I definitely encountered you a few times during your trek to Terra. Glad you can put that nonsense behind you. May you inherit the luck I had for Bartz if you don't have it yet. Only needed to run Big Keep about 20 times.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Mining and botany are the only two relevant things of the top of my head that do not involve RNG.

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88% chance for unspoiled node landing, 0/6 items gained :D

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Originally Posted by Gallus

What Kiara has proposed is a very good idea. Read what he posted. Also, I'm not saying they should completely remove the RNG factor out of the game, what I'm saying is that it is not right that 90% of the relevant things in this game are heavily RNG based. Think about it:

1 - Relic quest? Brutal amounts of RNG.
2 - Raiding? Fair amounts of RNG (you know, loot).
3 - Master crafting? Fair amounts of RNG (basically, hasty touch, tricks of the trade and rapid synthesis).
4 - Big Fishing? LoL.
5 - Triple Triad? Random rule, chaos rule and horrendous drop rates from both NPCs and battles.
6 - Vanity items such as ponies? RNG again.
7 - Chocobo racing? A pokemon + laggy mario kart mix. RNG as its finest.
8 - Even freaking gardening has a slight aomunt of RNG involved.

Mining and botany are the only two relevant things of the top of my head that do not involve RNG.

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While too much RNG can be bad, and what Kiara posted is going in the right direction to alleviate some stress of RNG (though the % adjustments might be high in what was suggested), pure RNG formats are necessary for an MMORPG. Players, including you it seems, don't understand the relevance behind it. If every single thing about the game can be planned ahead, any sense of "random" or "RNG" becomes irrelevant. Imagine if you had to do things like the books for Animus on every single facet of the game. You know how boring that is? LOL.

Do you really believe people would enjoy the grind more if they knew they would get said item at this exact moment latest? It's literally no different than saving up gil, MGP, tomes, etc to buy something, besides the fact there's multiple ways to obtain currency. Yay I bought this thing... now to just completely ignore the fact there was very minimal joy in obtaining it. During, at least, the earlier onsets of content, RNG plays the role of prestige and value. Do you really think people would care if Fenrir were an easy to obtain mount? It'd be treated no different than the Behemoth mount (or any other easily obtainable thing). Winning that lotto (or putting in the absurd amount of dedication to get 1mil in such a short span of time so far) is purely for the sense of being unique. RNG (or that diehard dedication) makes you stand out above the rest for a little while.

Again, RNG is pointless if you can predict a way to beat it (e.g. being guaranteed a reward after X amount of time). Thus saying, if it's pointless, then there's no need for it... which means it's no longer an MMORPG (or an RPG in general). They could always remove the boredom of the books by making it faster to complete (i.e. less of a grind), but then things become faster to obtain. Then what? Bored to death due to nothing to accomplish. Not to mention that you'd be raging if you did have the worst of luck in getting to your guaranteed reward (which means you're raging in a similar fashion to how it is now). Think about how it is with people bitching about speed runs or instances taking too long to finish. You already anticipate how long something should take... but oops, a wipe or group aren't moving as fast as you like, so /ragequit. Trust me, it doesn't matter what system they choose to go with... the same problems will still be there. It happens Every. Single. Time. It's just a different target to complain about.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

5 - Triple Triad? Random rule, chaos rule and horrendous drop rates from both NPCs and battles.

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Don't forget the Bronze, Silver and Gold packs. What a freaking waste of MGP.

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Originally Posted by Madigari

It just wouldn't be FFXIV without RNG.

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Just because something bad exists doesn't mean it should. Pure RNG based gaming can and usually will destroy the player's desire to play the game instead of finding something else to play which lowers your overall profit from losing subscribers. Zanarken hit the nail on the head.

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Originally Posted by Zanarken

From the programmer's perspective it is a consistent random formula because when you look at ALL PLAYERS drop rates, there is a clear pattern and enough drops are happening per hour (or whatever criteria they are using as the barometer) that the devs feel the system is balanced.

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A pure RNG sytem relies heavily on the law of large numbers where when thousands or millions of players are grinding something the overall drop rate for the item falls in line with the intended drop rate averaged across all players. This however causes a problem where you end up with a decent sized group of players who fall outside the standard deviation and have a drop rate of 0%. This is where safety nets and timers come in where if the RNG doesn't pay out as expected within the time determined to be fair the rate steadily should increase until reaching 100% and providing you with your item. FFXIV has none of that and you are completely capable of never getting a drop ever if the game just doesn't like you.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Do you really believe people would enjoy the grind more if they knew they would get said item at this exact moment latest?

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Absolutely. I've never seen anyone complain about books, light grind, or mahatma anywhere near as much as Atma and dungeon "atma". What I actually heard instead as a huge sigh of relief on both parts that the next phase was quantifiable and plannable. Pure RNG is absolute crap and defending it is just as dumb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

Just because something bad exists doesn't mean it should. Pure RNG based gaming can and usually will destroy the player's desire to play the game instead of finding something else to play which lowers your overall profit from losing subscribers.

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Well, I think I said just that in the rest of my post, but, just to clarify, I agree. I might not have started farming Terra yet, but I have my own RNG headache with the Moggle Mog XII card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

Absolutely. I've never seen anyone complain about books, light grind, or mahatma anywhere near as much as Atma and dungeon "atma". What I actually heard instead as a huge sigh of relief on both parts that the next phase was quantifiable and plannable. Pure RNG is absolute crap and defending it is just as dumb.

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They're not complaining about it because it's the oddball of the process. You're really not looking at how the process itself is because you're comparing it to things that are approached differently. You have to compare it to maybe tome gear or acquiring gil. Trackable resources that are used to getting these things. Then apply how you get them. Believing people enjoy the books for what they are in general is really ignorant and very biased. Even your mention of the lights falls into this perspective. How many people ENJOY (keyword there and one that you apparently replied to) the process? Your happiness while you grind to the goal is no different than it is while you grind through RNG. Enjoying something is not the same as thinking something is easier. Huge difference there. The only defining factors is that you know there is an end when there is no RNG... doesn't mean you're enjoying your time to it though (again, no different).

Again, as I pointed out in the earlier reply, just look at dungeon runs and how ridiculous people become about negatively looking at an instance taking 1 minute longer. About how long it takes to get MGP, a trackable resource. About the cost of housing, a trackable goal and resource (gil). The complaints/boredom/anger/etc that sparked RNG hate is still there, it's just redirected. I guess there's honestly no point to convincing people why a system exists when all they care about is their own satisfaction and how their own impatience is causing a clear sense of bias. One could argue defending the existence of RNG as being selfish, but those arguments aren't ignoring what category/genre of game we're talking about here. Nor is it ignoring the business side of things (the sole reason the game even exists). Mind you, again, as I said, there can be too much RNG involved, but that depends on the time allotted for the content to exist and the future prospect of nerfs in an MMORPG.

I don't think the point was ever that the grinding content such as the Atma->Animus books was enjoyable, just that it and the other quantifiable steps were more enjoyable than the purely RNG elements to the quest in comparison, such as the dungeon drops Nexus->Zodiac steps.

But either of those are really beside the point. The sheer fact of the matter is that there's ways to make people enjoy a game, even an MMO, without over-reliance on RNG. I mean, I was looking forward to Triple Triad as a relaxing, minimal RNG way to enjoy the game, the minimal being restricted to the randomness of the card packs and the rules. But they couldn't even do that right. They had to inject artificial methods of making people grind old content, and I mean grind. I got my Zodiac with far less hassle compared to the Moggle Mog XII card. That makes absolutely no sense, especially for something that's supposed to be a fun, enjoyable minigame.