Dragging last-to-be-killed mob to next pull

As FFXIV grows, it's starting to really gather a lot of players from that other MMO that shall not be named.

FFXIV is my first MMO ever, so I don't have previous experience.

I've encountered a few tanks who hold agro very well, but when the last mob is at 3/4 or 1/2 health or so they pull it with them to the next group.

On questioning a rather talkative fellow about this, I've learned that the tactic comes from a certain overly popular (but less fun) MMO where this tactic is used to "keep the group moving along" and it's just normally how things are done.

Just wondering what the thoughts are on this.

I can see the upside of keeping a flow going, and that way people are always doing something without little action-pauses of simply running between groups.

I've never done this myself as a tank, though, for the following reasons:
-Less time (sometimes no time) for Healer MP to regenerate between pulls
-Some DPS can't move-and-attack at the same time, so it's not helpful to them
-If healer stays with DPS to kill last mob, tank can end up alone taking on a fresh 3-4+ mob group

So, what are the Pros and Cons of this tactic in FFXIV?
In the end, is this something tanks in FFXIV should do more often? Or only when party make-up allows for it? (Thinking... SCH and BRD and maybe a melee DPS too)

I've actually noticed this as well, but had no idea the tanks were doing it on purpose! I just assumed the tank was moving on a little early and expected us DPS to finish off the last mob. Not that it's ever really bothered me or anything, as to date it hasn't caused any problems for me or any group I've been in. I just find it sort of interesting to know they are doing it on purpose and evidently there's some tactic at work there haha.

Why not?
You either kill it while moving and save time.
Or, if you've got AOE in your dps, moving a lone mob to a bigger pack lets them do AOE for more efficiency.

I don't tend to do it myself but I don't see it as a problem, unless they don't think it through.

This is called chain pulling.

You do it primarily to keep the pace up, which is more fun than stop and go.
Heals/DPS should no tbe running low on MP on chain-pulling (as opposed to a speedrun) so that is not a problem.

Little Pros could also be:
-Monk can keep up his stacks
-Sometimes SMN/SCH may be able to bane dots off the last mob to the new ones
-Let that last mob die in the AoE instead of focussing on it

Cons only exist if the tank is not watching the healers MP for the exceptional situation that the healer is running low on chainpulls (but thats really a exception)

It's a pretty normal tactic, it helps out some dps to keep up their stacks, only time it's annoying is when they decide to press-on just before you're about to land a buffed combo-finisher >.<

I've never played any other MMO, but i "developed" this "technique" pretty early on. It just seems to make sense. As a PLD, I usually stun it for 6 secs before leaving it.

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Originally Posted by Anubis_Nephthys

As a PLD, I usually stun it for 6 secs before leaving it.

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I was going to post this but was beat to it.

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Originally Posted by Anubis_Nephthys

I've never played any other MMO, but i "developed" this "technique" pretty early on. It just seems to make sense. As a PLD, I usually stun it for 6 secs before leaving it.

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Not going to work if you have a good whm, however then it's back to "do you have dps that can kill it on the move?" If so, why not do this? Pretty sure whichever MMO OP is referring to isn't the first MMO to have people do this kind of strat. It evolved from common sense; it's going to reappear in a number of games.

I never realized FFIV was a MMO, my Super Nintendo didn't have internet access.

I do this in most of my dungoens, and have done so as far back as I can remember... Dont know why you dont want to name the other MMO as it has been a pioneer in the genre, and really defined or at least made the holy trinty of tank/healer/dps mainstream...

Anyway, my reasons for doing this are simple:
1. It keeps the pace flowing, the run seems more fluent and speedrunners and non speedrunners alike most often dont complain because its not too fast, nor is it too slow...


2. if you are lower geared than the rest of the group(eg dps) and you have problems holding emnity at the start of fights, this is a good way to get ahead... Once the last mob(s) are low on hp(I start at aprox 10-20%), you will get a headstart on the next pack of mobs by the time the rest of the group catches up... If you are equally or better geared than your group this isn't that relevant but still, point nr 1 stands...

There are different ways to chainpull, all depends on the dungeon and mobs, to be effective in this you really need to know the dungoen.... You can add patrols in the mix, you can semi speedrun using this tactics by gathering several packs of mobs, then go get new packs of mobs when your initial pack is thinned out....

Its all what you feel you and your group can handle really... The better you know the instance, the better you can do this(as with speedrunning in general except that with speedrunning you would benefit having the gear to back you up).

So if I'm to mention cons as a tank for this:
-You should know the instance(where mobs are/how many)
-You will have to watch your healers mp, if he's low you will need to ease up
-You will have to watch your own tp/mp, you will eventually run out
(not really cons, but things you need to be on top of to master this technique, although I know it can and should be applied to tanking in general...)

Other than that there isnt really that much to it.... Its probably "less stressful" than speedrunning and can be done without overgearing content or giving your healer heartattacks.... It makes runs feel smooth and although maybe not as fast as speedrunning it usually doesnt take that much longer, especially if you are good at it...

Just my 2 cents!

I always do this if the DPS aren't AoEing them all down together.

Most mobs will die from DoT damage and caster jobs can DPS while moving.

I always thrown in a shield bash to keep them in place as i move on... but only do it when i know the dps will burn it down before the stun wears off.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I never realized FFIV was a MMO, my Super Nintendo didn't have internet access.

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Haha!

Thanks, fixed.

Melees need tp. Having that monster lock you in combat means I run out of tp on the next aoe pull. We need that time to regeneration tp. If you got 2 blms and you healer mp is fine sure whatever. But for the love of cake stop doing this with tp based DPS.

There's a reason only plds do this. They don't need tP to tank. Invig only goes so far when I'm on nin or drg, and if I ever did this on war I'd be throwing away overpowers. Pld and 2 blm go to town. Anything else kill before you run.

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Originally Posted by Heleth

Dont know why you dont want to name the other MMO as it has been a pioneer in the genre, and really defined or at least made the holy trinty of tank/healer/dps mainstream...

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Just trying to by funny and I didn't know if there was a forum-regulation against it or anything.

But yeah, I don't have anything against it. Was actually thinking of getting into it instead of FFXIV. But then I didn't want to start something when everyone else was 10-12(?) years ahead of me... and it's just so old...

So when I heard of FFXIV, it just fit what I was looking for a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Melees need tp. Having that monster lock you in combat means I run out of tp on the next aoe pull. We need that time to regeneration tp. If you got 2 blms and you healer mp is fine sure whatever. But for the love of cake stop doing this with tp based DPS.

There's a reason only plds do this. They don't need tP to tank. Invig only goes so far when I'm on nin or drg, and if I ever did this on war I'd be throwing away overpowers. Pld and 2 blm go to town. Anything else kill before you run.

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in all fairness it would very easy to handle this problem if i could ACTUALLY see your tp lol. But in most cases i always handle the pace with a case by case basis.

Seems like there are some pretty split opinions on chain pulling.

It does make sense to me to keep things moving and to give the tank a chance to build hate on the next group without making the party wait for it.

Then again,

It does have a high chance of using up TP/MP reserves, depending on execution.

We're able to see everyone's MP, so the tank should be able to watch that to see if it's safe to do.
We don't get to see everyone's TP (yet..?) So that aspect's a bit more of a guess. Unless a bunch of Goads/Songs are being tossed around. Well, even then, still blind.

I'll be sticking on the side of caution for the most part (not chain pulling regularly).
Unless, of course, the party's just eager. Then it's John-F***ing-Madden time!

Any healer-mains want to weigh in on this?

It often annoys me as a BLM when a tank does this, until I have their rhythm down.

After having things timed to finish with a blizzard III and a scathe or two, the mob gets dragged out of range or LoS, leaving me using a transpose and getting a slow start at the next group. Once I have it down, things work well.

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

Why not?
You either kill it while moving and save time.
Or, if you've got AOE in your dps, moving a lone mob to a bigger pack lets them do AOE for more efficiency.

I don't tend to do it myself but I don't see it as a problem, unless they don't think it through.

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Keeping the healer in combat means his/her MP will regenerate much slower.

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Originally Posted by Cold_Raven

Any healer-mains want to weigh in on this?

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Especially in more difficult content, the time in between pulls is needed to restore resources.
The reason chainpulling is done is WoW in because healers barely use mana there, and because tanks can essentially solo dungeons on their own. Any tank trying to apply that to this game doesn't know how to tank properly.

Wow it was a textbook tactic, I thought i was the only one who did it because this was my first MMO too and i've been doing it for as long as i can remember

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Keeping the healer in combat means his/her MP will regenerate much slower.

Especially in more difficult content, the time in between pulls is needed to restore resources.
The reason chainpulling is done is WoW in because healers barely use mana there, and because tanks can essentially solo dungeons on their own. Any tank trying to apply that to this game doesn't know how to tank properly.

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If a healer MP goes off so fast. That healer is overhealing and not even trying to manage their MP

The issue is not being able to see your party's TP. Nothing else is holding us Tanks back except that.

The other point here is if you are going to chain pull, and your healer has plenty of mana, then why are you not just pulling 2 groups immediately and getting the most out of your aoe?
Also the new dungeons are set up mostly to stop this.

So yes this isn't WoW and those are the reasons.

Chain pulling is bad M'Kay. If you want speed just pull everything. Keeping the whole party in combat on the way to the next group is a huge resource drain. Especially if your healer is a WHM who uses holy. Showing up to each pack with a healthy MP pool is way way way faster than dragging some random mob behind you slowing down their MP recovery. Also there is nothing more annoying than chasing down a mob as a melee and CONSTANTLY having your action interrupted.

2 BLM as DPS? Why in the name of god is there something left alive anyway?

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Originally Posted by Blueskyy

If a healer MP goes off so fast. That healer is overhealing and not even trying to manage their MP

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If the healer is helping your group to kill the group by doing damage (especially a WHM using holy) instead of standing around doing nothing (managing their MP) then they will drain their MP.

Chain pulling is a big resource drain on all members of the party save maybe SMN/SCH. I think the extra couple seconds to finish the last mob is usually not worth it. It's particularly bad when chain pulling between large AoE groups since AoE is so resource intensive.

It really depends on the situation, but I usually don't like chain pulling as a DPS and I don't do it as a WAR (cause I want TP too). As a BLM I don't mind much. Even transposing will restore all MP pretty quickly (if the tank runs the mob out of blizzard range before I cast, for instance).

As a MNK there's no advantage to chain pulling unless it's a very short distance. If I'm running for more than 5 seconds I almost certainly can't hit the mob, drop greased lightning, lose out on extra TP regeneration, and then have to finish off the mob the tank was carrying without my buffs before starting on the new group. It's a loss of efficiency instead of a gain. It does work in some places though, like Stone Vigil HM. Most of the groups are close enough that, as long as I know what the tank is doing I can shoulder tackle over to the new group and not drop buffs. Still can't do this repeatedly though because of TP.

Wow doesn't have the gear/dungeon scaling this game does. At a certain point in the progression some healer's could solo the dungeons.

I tend not to do it with a party of tp dps.
If casters want to stand at max range.... meh.

As others have said before, it is both useful, but situational.

I only do this if I have BRD or BLM in PT (whether together or doubled up), since they can (BRD at least most efficiently) attack on the move, BLM can with scathe and a fire/thunder proc, to finish off a mob, or since they have higher AoE output they wait till next pack. I never do with with melee combinations. It's not fair to them and doesn't really save time in my opinion as they aren't pushing out damage, just running behind me. Normally though its a "gather all the things" and watch the light show. Then go fight a boss, rinse, repeat.

As a healer chainpulling never ever got me into mana problems.
Can't speak for the TP users.

Some here making it sound like you drag a mob form A to B for 30 seconds, when in reality its like 5 sec tops.
Pulling one mob for a longer time to the next pack is not the definition of chainpulling, but retarded.

LOL too true. Chain pulling..if anyone has ever played XI, now that is the definition of chain pulls....chain 400+ anyone?

As a tank from MANY mmorpg's, and even mmo's that don't have the defined "holy Trinity" ( like Phantasy Star Online ) chain pulling is strictly situational and there should be a dialogue and understanding with the healer.

when tanking a mob of, lets just say, four, I will slowly move the group to the next pull but without agro-ing them immediately. when the last enemy is close to being dropped, ill turn around and use Tomahawk to pull the next, ill stay still until the mob gets to me and by the time the new mob starts attacking I would have already vomited fire all over them with Overpower and the cycle continues.

a rotating pull is a safer solution and even more consistent/fluid...if you are able to do it. Example: you have a mob of four, once an enemy dies, the dps move to the next as you pull another single mob to keep the number at four and its a cycle.

if enemies are paired up ( you agro one and another is auto agroed as well ) I pull two pairs so that my group has four targets. if one dies ill pull a single target to bring it up to 4 again, but if the enemies are paired up, wait until two drop before agro-ing the mob so that your number stays at 4 and so that the healer doesn't get overwhelmed when they have gotten used to healing through 4 and you bring in 5

id break occasionally though so your melee dps have some time to recover some TP

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Originally Posted by SierraZero

As a tank from MANY mmorpg's, and even mmo's that don't have the defined "holy Trinity" ( like Phantasy Star Online ) chain pulling is strictly situational and there should be a dialogue and understanding with the healer.

when tanking a mob of, lets just say, four, I will slowly move the group to the next pull but without agro-ing them immediately. when the last enemy is close to being dropped, ill turn around and use Tomahawk to pull the next, ill stay still until the mob gets to me and by the time the new mob starts attacking I would have already vomited fire all over them with Overpower and the cycle continues.

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And while you tomahawk a heal lands on you or regen ticks and the pack runs straight to the healer.

Chainpulling from pack to pack is only then dangerous if both tank and heal are undergeared, thats my experience.

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Originally Posted by SierraZero

a rotating pull is a safer solution and even more consistent/fluid...if you are able to do it. Example: you have a mob of four, once an enemy dies, the dps move to the next as you pull another single mob to keep the number at four and its a cycle.

if enemies are paired up ( you agro one and another is auto agroed as well ) I pull two pairs so that my group has four targets. if one dies ill pull a single target to bring it up to 4 again, but if the enemies are paired up, wait until two drop before agro-ing the mob so that your number stays at 4 and so that the healer doesn't get overwhelmed when they have gotten used to healing through 4 and you bring in 5

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Except for the fact that there are so few occasions in the game where you can actually pull a single mob. If, its mostly 2 or 3 patrolling mobs in a dungeon, but not like you could move through the dungeon this way.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

And while you tomahawk a heal lands on you or regen ticks and the pack runs straight to the healer.

Chainpulling from pack to pack is only then dangerous if both tank and heal are undergeared, thats my experience.

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in those situations youd have to use OverPower or another AOE enmity a little sooner than expected and stay on top of your meters.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Except for the fact that there are so few occasions in the game where you can actually pull a single mob. If, its mostly 2 or 3 patrolling mobs in a dungeon, but not like you could move through the dungeon this way.

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Brayflox's, is decent with this as well as Sunken Temple. but requires a lot of trust. I rarely attempt this with a Pick Up Group.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

As a healer chainpulling never ever got me into mana problems.
Can't speak for the TP users.

Some here making it sound like you drag a mob form A to B for 30 seconds, when in reality its like 5 sec tops.
Pulling one mob for a longer time to the next pack is not the definition of chainpulling, but retarded.

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If it's only 5 sec to the next group it's easier to just pull all the way to the next group and blow them up with the stuff you already grabbed. More TP/MP efficient too. In reality a full pull takes about 20 seconds from start to kill zone. That's 70% resource recovery.

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Originally Posted by Artair

If it's only 5 sec to the next group it's easier to just pull all the way to the next group and blow them up with the stuff you already grabbed. More TP/MP efficient too. In reality a full pull takes about 20 seconds from start to kill zone. That's 70% resource recovery.

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It's most of the times only 5 sec to the next group, thats why I brought it up.
I'm in no way saying chainpulling is better than big pulls in terms of efficiency, dunno why you give me that.

Not saying you think it's better. Just that I don't know of any dungeon with packs of mobs 5 seconds apart that it's not more beneficial to just pull the lot and have it all die in 1 go. Brayflox HM has packs 5 sec apart but it's easier to just burn the lot from boss to boss IMO. If we could do it at i90 it's far from a tricky pull synced to i110.

5 sec apart is really 3 sec and a tomahawk and at that point you are at most gonna get hit once by everything you have on you already. Dungeons not synced to 110 are mostly gated anyway so you just pull to the gate then repeat.

If you are doing single pack pulls this is an 80tp loss between each pack for each person, if you then combine it with speed run pulls where you are pulling 2-3 packs or more you are talking about 240-320 tp lost per person, when dragging 1 mob. On packs 4 or less I don't care its a dps wash for me most of the time between the increased activity time and having to switch to single targeting. Above that you are throwing away about 1k dmg per mob in the pack just off my output, not counting the other dps and potentially healer, and reducing the amount of aoes that I can get out under full buffs by 2 which if I have them up is about another 1k per mob on top of that.

If you are saying increased strain on resource management is more fun, I can't really argue against that opinion nor would I want to. If you are saying it is more efficient, from a dps stand point no not really.

As a MNK, I appreciate having a chance to punch something while on the move to refresh my stacks between pulls.
As a WHM, I utterly hate having to sit and do nothing because my MP pool is drained after the first few groups of mobs' worth of DPS. When the whole team is covered in enmity, Swiftcast-Stoneskin II between pulls goes out the window. It becomes hard to even Stoneskin the tank-on-the-go with any corners or early departures. More often than not this becomes a game of "What percentage of HP will the tank have before they finally Flash / Overpower / Circle of Scorn?", which is followed up with "Oh my, they're at 25%. Gotta save 'em. WHM tank is go!" I dislike knowing Regen is out the window because the tank may shoot off at any time, despite being one of the most versatile and efficient heals in the WHM arsenal.
As a THM, MP may not be an issue, but it's pretty much obnoxious to have to run and Scathe because range and line of sight both stink.
As a PLD, I know it's almost always easier to group up one large quantity of monsters and deploy the songs / cooldowns needed to burst them all at once than it is to trickle a monster into the next group if speed is the goal.

If you want to have a speedy run, do a speedrun the right way.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

If the healer is helping your group to kill the group by doing damage (especially a WHM using holy) instead of standing around doing nothing (managing their MP) then they will drain their MP.

Chain pulling is a big resource drain on all members of the party save maybe SMN/SCH. I think the extra couple seconds to finish the last mob is usually not worth it. It's particularly bad when chain pulling between large AoE groups since AoE is so resource intensive.

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My definition of managing MP includes WHM using Holy as well. As a WHM if you wanna help dps you should always know the limit and not just use holy blindly.