...in the next update? 2.5 part 2?
Cos at the moment its totally horrendous. I thought you would increase the drop chance with 2.51!
side note: why must you keep doing content like this? do you like to see your players suffer and come here and complain or something? :rolleyes:
-
03-07-2015, 05:18 PMbloodSp3chey SE, will you be increasing the drop chance for zodiac dungeon items?
-
03-08-2015, 02:18 AMCynfael
Zodiac wasn't nearly as bad as pre-nerf Atma, but I dearly wish that they would go back to achievement-based goals like the initial i80 relic had: complete your laundry list of dungeons and trials, even if it's a moderately long list and involves some crafting or trading, receive your item.
I think players would have responded more positively to a "light" system where you will have earned enough invisible currency to acquire each quest item after X number of runs of that dungeon. -
03-08-2015, 07:22 AMCallinonI agree. The Animus step certainly took the longest (at least it did for me), but it was varied content and easily measurable progress. You could do stuff every day and make easily definable progress towards your Animus weapon. With the Zodiac step (and the Atma step for that matter) every dungeon in which you don't get a drop is just lost time, nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
Now my drop rate for Zodiac items was pretty good (around 23%), but I've read enough to realize that this is far from the average drop rate.
At the very least if they want to have a system like this, then it needs to be done smarter. Each time the item doesn't drop it needs to increase the chances of getting a drop next time. Even then you're going to have people who have to run dungeons dozens if not hundreds of times to get the drops they need just because of how statistics and random numbers work. That kind of situation shouldn't be possible. -
03-08-2015, 08:00 AMUltear_Milkovich
I got my Zodiac weapon in 8 days of intense grinding nothing more. If you re really commited then you have it fast - nothing more to add. Doing 37 Hullsbreaker like i did is not cool but when it finally drops its over.
Getting a housing spot in an overcrowded server or the 5000 victories in Wolfs Den achievment is almost impossible but people dont complain at it. Even getting a solid FCOB group that doesnt disband or go nuts on stupid loot drama is ofteb MUCH harder .
If you cant get your zodiac then sorry but you re prolly doing it wrong or maybe you dont deserve it - RNG God only knows.
You re not asked to get it asap there s a lot of other things to do anyways . -
03-08-2015, 12:56 PMCallinonI'm sorry but no. All the dedication in the world won't change how random numbers work. In any reasonable statistical model there will always ALWAYS be people on the outsides who simply can't catch a break.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultear_Milkovich
Also telling people that they don't deserve a Zodiac weapon because the dungeons won't drop items is petty, elitist, and wrong. -
03-08-2015, 01:02 PMHustensaftThey are completely different things than a failed implementation of RNG-based content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultear_Milkovich
You know you won't be getting a house.
You do know that at some point in the future you will get the 5000 victories. It just takes a very long time.
Loot drama is a result of a poor loot system (can be directlyc compared to a poor RNG implementation). SE acknowledged that and changes it for Heavensward.
Each player that trys to go for these goals has to input an equal amount of effort. Zodiac Dungeon Drops on the other hand do not require similar input. If you have people that finish after 60 dungeons, while others are required to run one dungeon 60 times, then there is a massive flaw in that system. -
03-08-2015, 11:36 PMmoudoka
RNG-based content is utterly lazy, contempt for the players, and wholly pathetic. I'm fed up with the RNG relic shit. Original Atma was enough to nearly make me cancel my subscription, and now with Atma 2.0 with the Zodiac, I'm re-visiting the issue. Throw in the MASSIVE amount of SE-sponsored bots, yeah. Anger doesn't begin to describe what I feel, and frankly, I'm here to enjoy myself, not find total frustration with a bullshit system designed to let them get away with doing jack shit for the players.
-
03-09-2015, 03:10 AMGuardianX
0 for 101 in blayfox hard for relic drop. This random business is very stupid and unfair.
-
03-09-2015, 01:29 PMXenosan
They keep incorporating an every-other Phase be RNG system.
Atma stones, alexandrite/melding, dungeon drops.
It is as intended.. They want this all to be the time sink and slow people down. Let's hope they start throwing us some bones -
03-10-2015, 06:22 AMEdellisYou...don't have to entertain the zodiac weapons. They were clearly designed for grind-oriented players. You have the sol weapons, EX primal weapons, Levi/Ramuh/Shiva weapons, Allagan, High-Allagan and Dreadwyrm weapons to acquire by achievement-based means. Zodiac has a very pretty glow, and sweet model, but seriously none of that has ever been enough to make me want to suffer the quest.Quote:
Originally Posted by moudoka
At any given time, there is a weapon equal/stronger than the zodiac weapon. You just have to stop caring about the Zodiacs. The content sharks cried and asked for it, and they got it. So just wait for a nerf or acquire the other 98% of the gear in the game that isn't behind the RNG Farm wall.
So, sorry to say, but you're doing it wrong. Zodiac weaponry isn't nearly as prestigious as Dreadwyrm or even Ironworks weaponry. It's just a glorified grindstick. Just let it go. -
03-16-2015, 07:41 PMBlazen
Since there isn't intelligent RNG, the drops over time look like a bell curve. A very small percentage will get drops very fast. The overwhelming majority in the percentage of the drop rate. A very small percentage will get drops very slow. Then, there are even smaller percent of people. A very very small numer will get there drops the first time in the dungeons. However, for each person that gets the drop the 1st time, there is a person that NEVER gets the drop. THAT is why you need some intelligent RNG behind the drops. THIS is also why we hear some many people unable to get the drops. They eventually give up.
This is not fun and I give up. The only thing we can do to show displeasure is to withdraw our dollar. Otherwise SE believes everything is ok. So that is what I have done. I encourage anyone else that is bored or not having fun or "just waiting for Heavensward" to show how you feel with you money.
Otherwise I wish you all luck and hope you find fun that I have lost. -
03-16-2015, 08:10 PMCulfinrandirFINALLY, someone else who understands the statistics and the relationship with RNG in the game. I keep trying to get people to understand that unless the "percentage" shown is 0% or 100% you cannot, at all, predict the outcome due to RNG. Some people will experience 99.9r% and get drops like crazy whilst others will experience 0.0r1% and effectively never get the drop they need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazen
-
03-16-2015, 08:58 PMmoudokaSorry to say, but I'm doing it wrong? Pray tell, how is that? I can't influence the RNG aspect of this game, otherwise I would exert control over it. To me, dreadwrym stuff is pointless, as it's dungeons that are built around the elitist players who hate anyone who makes a singular mistake that wipes the entire party. No thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edellis
-
03-16-2015, 11:37 PMSynestr
So, should I or shouldn't I start my Zodic? I have two jobs in mind. My PLD (goto tank) and BLM (goto DPS). Currently I have one (1) atma....yes 1.
Is the road so long that I would run out of gas before hitting the end? -
03-16-2015, 11:58 PMRiepah
The Zodiac step is by far the worst kind of filth. I tend to run dungeons together with my friend, and she'd have her Zodiac done twice over by now if she didn't help me re-run the dungeons that drop her item before my own. It is absolutely disgusting that some people are so lucky that they get each drop within their first 3 runs of a dungeon, while others can run the same damn place over 10 times and leave empty handed.
Please quit the unfair RNG bullcrap. Give us a proper, honest, straightforward grind - tell us to run each dungeon 5 times. Tell us to run each dungeon 10 times, even, but make it fair across the board. Same effort should yield the same reward. As it is, some can put in over a dozen times the effort of others who get their Zodiac and get absolutely nothing for it. -
03-17-2015, 12:04 AMCallinonStarting from a full atma weapon, I finished my zeta weapon in about six weeks. I figured that if I were to start a new weapon from the zenith stage (where you are), I'd probably need another 3-5 days for atma drops depending on drop rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestr
Keep in mind that this was some seriously hardcore relic farming I was doing. Like... 8+ hours a day.
The biggest stumbling blocks for me were the atma farming (pre-nerf), the alexandrite farming when the rng gods just spent a day pissing on me (tried to average 10 per day.. some days got 6, some days got 20... 8+ hours a day), and the soldiery farming for the zodiac step.
If you do decide to start now, I have some recommendations for you:
- Buy your Bombard Cores early. I had mine before I was done with my Novus step. With all the book farming and FATE farming you end up doing you get more than enough seals to completely trivialize this step.
- Don't bother with tier IV materia. Buying all the materia for my Novus cost me about 2m gil. I got some of that back selling back leftovers I didn't end up needing.
- Bookmark this reddit live thread: https://www.reddit.com/live/tlfmtjl4fteo this thread tracks which pieces of content are in their bonus window for light farming. This applies to both nexus and zeta farming.
- Have capped soldiery (2000) at the end of your Nexus step so that you can immediately buy a Sacred Spring Water when starting zodiac farming. This lets you open extra dungeons you can farm for drops right away and removes a bunch of the soldiery farm from this step. Two of the four quests for the Zodiac step require you to throw Spring Water at them right away, so being able to satisfy one of those immediately is a great time saver.
- The Zodiac step ended up costing me about 1.7m gil in vendor mats and crafted mats. -
03-17-2015, 04:41 PMSynestr
Thank you very much for the info, it will definitely help. I have decided to go for both PLD and BLM. So looks like I have something to do while waiting for heavensward to pop.
Again thank you for your input. -
03-17-2015, 04:58 PMMicahZerrshia
I must say I have built 3 of these and am working on my forth and although yes sometimes dungeons can seem like they never want to drop an item....ever (hello 40-something runs of copperbell and 20-something satasha just on my first) it really isn't all that bad. Especially considering that once your first relic is complete if you are working on another, you can get at least half of your lights from farming the drops and get the needed soldiery for this stage, basically doing two in one. Which, when you do a second, makes it not seem so bad. However a select few of the dungeons seem to hold out, I would say a majority of them gave up their drop in around 4-5 runs. Considering these weapons are supposed to be "fun" and have easy-ish to get equivalents its not so bad. The worst thing they did was put 2 pre-lvl 50 dungeons on the list, AV and DD should never have been added, it was a poor poor decision on whoever thought this quest up to put lvl 40 dungeons in the mix.
Personally my first one made me hate relics, all those parties farming garuda over and over for endless hours then bashing my head against a wall running dungeons again and again and again. But when you move on to your second, its really not so bad since you can complete stages ahead of time while making progress on your current stage. The biggest bottleneck at this point is defiantly alexandrite imo. Nearly everything we have so far outside mahatma, can be done as a single quest. Novus-nexus-zodiac, its 3 stages in one basically. And you can get atma and alex, bombard cores, spring waters, crafted items, materia, all ahead of time while doing other content. It all fits in quite nicely.
I would definitely say, never stop farming items for relics, cause if you decide a couple months down the road that you want to do another, oh look you have your atma, and alex, and materia, dungeon drops and everything else. With the dungeon quests always able to be active, you can get your drops by doing things like high lvl dailies, relic book runs, helping fc mates and so on. Poof your relic appears with just farming light holding you back. Its actually smart in its design.
And frankly I would much rather run the same dungeon 20 times than farm fates for the equivalent amount of time. -
03-18-2015, 03:04 AMZophar
Same boat with this guy. Started my 4th recently. My last one, had the most appalling drop rates of my 3, to the point where I'm genuinely shocked that I actually started a 4th. My longest dry spell was about 84 runs without a drop. Even taking that into account. I was finished, from zenith to zodiac, in less than a month. Granted, this was with 27 alex pre stored, and I also did lights and zodiac dungeon drops simultaneously, but still, a month is really not a lot of work for such a weapon, especially if you compare it to how long it takes to get similar ultimate weapons in other MMO's.
And if I'm to be honest, it shouldn't take less than a month to get a weapon like this. Your alternative of course is dreadwyrm, which, for the mass majority, will probably take longer than that to clear from t10-13, and then you're praying on yet more rng hoping that your weapon drops this week.
Bottom line, if it's not worth the effort, don't do it. Do coil instead. And if you have no interest in doing coil... what do you honestly even need a 135 weapon for any way? -
03-18-2015, 10:08 AMThirdChild_ZKI
Speaking from a perspective of one who opted out at the Animus stage (I did the original Atma grind and hated it all the way), for those who chose the raid route, the joke's on us. If you cleared T9 just before Nexus was added AND got your weapon drop, it became inferior to the relic just like that. And again now with Dreadwyrm. We knew the relic would be the best, yes. But that effectively means choosing a harder (but not necessarily shorter) path. And all for a weapon that's still inferior in the end. So I ask, by that logic, what option do we REALLY have?
-
03-18-2015, 09:50 PMSpoekesYou do not have a choice for absolute BIS without Relic (except for Pala OT maybe), but keep in mind the very minor, almost negelctable difference of Dread vs. Relic.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Yes, it's a hard choice - do I dedicate that much time at the end of this era of the game?
True, but a weak argument in a gear-treadmill-game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zophar
-
03-18-2015, 09:59 PMMercutial
Funny how people are still going crazy over the Relic process even after Nexus lights and Atma drops were nerfed. Can only imagine how they would have reacted beforehand...
-
03-18-2015, 10:23 PMSpoekesQuote:
Originally Posted by Mercutial
-
03-19-2015, 12:37 AMYukariko
A soft cap on the amount of runs definitely needs putting in place, honestly don;t really care if it's pretty high, say 20 dungeon runs per zodiac drop.
Point with something like that is there is constantly a light at the end of the tunnel, someone may get lucky and get them in 16 runs or be supremely unlucky but the hard cap means that they're going to take no more than 320 runs.
SE haven't really looked at the psychology behind the current RNG.
The dopamine pleasure response is supposed to be triggered when the drop ( random reward) happens, BUT, for this to really work it needs to rain loot (like in Diablo) or be something where the task can be completed quickly, it's too few and far between in FF14, 20-30 minute dungeons before reward "chance" is too long.
For me personally when it does drop it's not pleasurable, it's relief, and when it doesn't drop I die a little inside cos I just think "here we go this is going to take me 100's of runs". and that is extremely demoralizing psychologically.
oh and as for atma drops, it still took me 5 hours of constant fates to get the southern thanalan drop even after the "nerf" -
03-19-2015, 01:19 AMMercutialQuote:
Originally Posted by Yukariko
No offense... but you speak of this like it's some kind of crazy statistical outlier, when this was very much the norm pre-nerf. My point being that much of everyone's frustration appears to be relative to whatever RNG is currently up to. No one is ever going to be satisfied. I laughed to myself when reading a discussion in my text box about someone unsubbing because they had been farming TWO WHOLE HOURS for a single Atma. The same person would have been considered positively lucky several months back.
People are always going to complain - even when the grind has been taken to an almost ridiculous level of non-grindiness (esp by traditional RPG standards). Hate to say it, but deal with it and find something else to amuse yourself with. You knew what was written on the tin the second you bought a FF game.
And I'm going to straight up say I simply don't believe these myriad of stories of people running a dungeon 978 times to get a zodiak drop. There's some real exaggeration going on here. -
03-19-2015, 02:34 AMMaero
While true Zodiac may not of been as bad as Atma before drop rate increase it is up there in sheer annoyance. Some dungeons i loved at one time i no longer do.
Doing same dungeons 20+ times..... yeah who was the genius behind this idea. 978 would be a bit exagerated but 40 or more is not, that is the reality of it.
So OP i do hope changes will be made to this as until they do i have no intentions on continuing my Nin and drg Relic -
03-20-2015, 02:45 AMZopharI feel like it's a perfectly valid argument. If you are doing coil, you can clear through turn 11 with High Allagan or equivalent weapon, which then gets you access to the Encrypted Tomestone, which will get you a120 Ironworks weapon, which you can upgrade to 130, which is sufficient to get you through turn 13, where you can get your dreadwyrm weapon. If you're not doing final coil.... again, there is literally, LITERALLY no reason, beyond the desire for a shiny trophy to have a zeta. Zeta relics are not required, and there is no argument to the contrary. It's soley about feeling better with yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoekes
-
03-20-2015, 03:06 AMCallinonExcept that improving your character is the entire point of an endgame grind. Who are you to tell people that the way they've chosen to do it is wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zophar
-
03-20-2015, 03:23 AMZopharI don't recall saying any such thing. I simply said that there is more than one way to go about it and if you don't like the grind that goes into making a zeta, then there's no reason you -have- to do it. There is an alternative. You're free to criticize my point all you like, but don't go putting words in my mouth. I personally, am working on my 4th zeta, because, personally, I feel like the reward is worth the grind. Other people, seem not to, but are going on as if they are being forced to do something they don't want to do, when in fact, they are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callinon
-
03-29-2015, 03:48 AMGumihoYou are happy because you are getting 1/1 drop, what about the people with over 30 tries on a dungeon and no drops? we spend weeks trying to farm a single dungeon just for nothing, I've seen a lot with over 100 tries and no drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zophar
Are you happy with the rng grind? good thing, keep it for yourself -
03-29-2015, 10:06 AMZophar
Show me. Show me the part where I said I was getting 1/1 drops. While, yes, I have gotten a small handful of 1/1 drops, That is far from my average. And like everybody, I have had at least one dry spells of over 100 runs, and a few over 50. My first weapon I had 40 runs in darkhold of all places. The entire point is, unlike seemingly everyone, I never felt like I "had" to do any of it. I did it because I "chose" to because I felt the reward was worth it, and it's not like I had much better to do. If at any point I felt like the grind was too much, I would have stopped and focused my efforts elsewhere. I am entitled to nothing. And neither are you.
-
03-29-2015, 10:11 AMbloodSp3c4th? good god, how can you even bother doing a 2nd one with this whole atrocious process!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zophar
did you sell your left kidney to RNGesus for that sort of luck? :P -
03-29-2015, 10:19 AMZopharEh, it has nothing to do with luck. Just dedication, and a little smart quest comboing. Been building 2 up since Atma was first introduced, and created the third from start to finish when I got to the dungeon drop stage on my second zodiac, and worked on drops for the second(and half the drops for the third), and lights for the third, simultaneously. Then after Zeta-ing all 3, I found myself lacking things to do between coil runs, and started #4.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodSp3c
-
03-29-2015, 10:22 AMbloodSp3cahhh i thought you did it one by one haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zophar
i only did it for my main, all others are just at zenith level -
03-29-2015, 10:23 AMRiepahHaha. You're funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zophar
-
03-29-2015, 11:09 AMZopharWell, you know what I mean. I don't feel like I had better luck than anyone else. I had good streaks, bad streaks, and horrible. But, the point is, I kept at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
-
03-29-2015, 12:08 PMRiepahBut that's what most people think, even if they, in fact, DID have better luck than the average player. I am not saying that that was the case for you - but I've seen plenty of people whose sheer amount of luck, frankly, disgusted me, who thought of themselves as merely average in terms of luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zophar
Yes, dedication has a good chance of getting you to your goal, eventually. But it's only a chance - as long as there aren't any safeguards against consistent bad luck implemented, no amount of dedication can ever *guarantee* that you will ever finish your Zodiac - while lucky people get it for virtually no effort. Purely RNG-based systems are unfair for one, and take the sense of accomplishment out of everything, as you're rewarded for being lucky, not for being a good player or for putting in hard "work". If RNG decides that you get your drop on the first run, did you deserve it? If so, what do you tell the person who didn't get their drop after 20 runs of the same dungeon? Did they not deserve it much more than the first person? How can the first person feel that they accomplished, or earned, something, while others worked dozens of times harder and get nothing? -
03-29-2015, 10:06 PMsilvermoon383
I know for me, my luck has gone back and forth several times. The first 2 drops came quite quickly, but then the slog happened (Stone Vigil and Brayflox gave me the most trouble up to this point with somewhere around 10 runs each.) I did quite the happy dance when DD and AV dropped after only 4 runs each! Now I'm working on the final 4, but only Lost City has dropped, all the rest I've done at least 4 times each so far.
-
03-30-2015, 12:11 AMTheref
Been having luck so far yesterday during first 3 quests. Then this "method of his malice" is so fked up. Been doing this all day 0 drop, copperbell mines HM ....
I know the chance is like 11% ish, but the fact RNG is still RNG
it is possible 100000000000 run with 0 drop, on extremely-extremely^100 unfortunate people
it is RNG. so mind boggling.
Now it's almost midnight and im still 0 drop copperbell mines -
04-01-2015, 04:37 AMkrazyrs
I can't make myself do a 3rd, I have both tank zetas, so much fail found in the "more difficult" dungeons I was /headdesk, and the few times where almost wiping to guda were so terrible
My most ran dungeon was AV 40x which is a low number compared to what ppl are counting up to, but I did do every single one of those as war since I was nexus light stage on bravura while zodiac drop farming excalibur.