Gil Toss Ability to drain gil out of the economy?

Now that leve gil-rewards have been significantly reduced it is difficult to make large amounts of gil.

However there is still -lots- of gil floating around and no real gil sinks.

So how about a gil-toss ability that does 1/10th damage of the gil thrown.

Then have "quick runs" as a requirement for some items on raids. So basically the super-rich or the giant linkshell-banks can spend their gil to kill off bosses insanely fast for quick-run victories.

Basically use gil-toss as a way to drain the economy of gil. At some point it would become fairly useless because enough gil would be taken out of the economy to make the gil vs damage ratio not worth it.

Your thoughts?

edit: please read this before you try to argue no one would spend gil.
I think a lot of people are failing to connect the dots here.

This is nothing new.

FFXI had HNM shells selling HNM drops for large amounts of gil. Those who didn't want to do HNMs but wanted a ridill could farm 20mil and purchase one.

FFXI proves people would be willing to pay the gil.
All this does it take out the middle man, instead of paying an HNM shell to farm you a really rare drop, you offer to use your gil to win a raid (which can get them other items).

The raid can still be done without gil, so endgame shells can still raid for the item.
Those who are rich can spend some of the gil they have to get the item faster so they don't have to waste time raiding
People who want the item but think 10 ppl will get it before them can farm or craft or do some kind of economic activity to make gil and then spend that to get a -chance- at the item.

So -everyone- wins. If you're a raider you have a chance, if you have lots of gil you have a chance, if you don't get to play often but can save up a lot you have a chance.
The economy wins because people create more economic activity to get the gil to have a chance.
And the economy wins because gil is drained from the game.

once more
-PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO PAY FOR ELITE GEAR IN FFXI-
so why wouldn't they be here?

Yeah I'll never use that X-x

Yea, I wouldn't use that either. While I've been around since beta, my current characters haven't been and they need to actually try to make gil.

it would be meant for people who have 100mil+ to get rare items that most people have difficulty getting. Then maybe make the items from speed runs slightly better.

So lets say i have 120 mil (i don't). I go to my ls and say "ill spend 5mil to win a speed run if i get the bow from it, and ls can take the rest" Then i spend 5mil and hope it drops. Maybe it takes 4 or 5 times to drop, and instant 20-25mil drained out of the economy.

Its an efficient gil sink, improves the economy, and rewards those who devoted lots of time to amassing gil (which is a HUGE negative burden on the current economy)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurymber

it would be meant for people who have 100mil+ to get rare items that most people have difficulty getting. Then maybe make the items from speed runs slightly better.

So lets say i have 120 mil (i don't). I go to my ls and say "ill spend 5mil to win a speed run if i get the bow from it, and ls can take the rest" Then i spend 5mil and hope it drops. Maybe it takes 4 or 5 times to drop, and instant 20-25mil drained out of the economy.

Its an efficient gil sink, improves the economy, and rewards those who devoted lots of time to amassing gil (which is a HUGE negative burden on the current economy)

---

Someone stingy enough to have 100+mil isnt going to waste it on killing a monster.

Doctor Mog, tell us your gil earning secrets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Someone stingy enough to have 100+mil isnt going to waste it on killing a monster.

---

Really? And you know this because of your deep economic insights?

Explain why putting the name "gucci" on a bag can make it worth $5000 more than if it didn't have the name
Or explain why people will pay an extra $1000 a night for a room that's 4-feet larger and called an "executive suite"
Or explain why someone would buy a $600,000 sports car and park it in their front driveway
Or even in the game, why some people spend millions to craft themselves a +3 no one else has (and then keep it instead of selling it)

Most people who make money, make it to spend it. If you create an incentive for them to spend it (ex. getting the best bow from a "quick run") they will most likely be willing to spend it. That's not an overly complicated concept.

If you are going to make a raid based on one ability (throwing gil) then why not just save the player time and set up a vendor in the middle of town to sell all the rare/ex gear? Seriously though, currently we have the repair system whose prices can be adjusted if the economy really needs to get rid of some gil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurymber

Really? And you know this because of your deep economic insights?

Explain why putting the name "gucci" on a bag can make it worth $5000 more than if it didn't have the name
Or explain why people will pay an extra $1000 a night for a room that's 4-feet larger and called an "executive suite"
Or explain why someone would buy a $600,000 sports car and park it in their front driveway
Or even in the game, why some people spend millions to craft themselves a +3 no one else has (and then keep it instead of selling it)

Most people who make money, make it to spend it. If you create an incentive for them to spend it (ex. getting the best bow from a "quick run") they will most likely be willing to spend it. That's not an overly complicated concept.

---

No, I know this because I have over 200mil.

And im not going to throw the shit at a monster when I could just kill it instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

No, I know this because I have over 200mil.

And im not going to throw the shit at a monster when I could just kill it instead.

---

what if they made it hard and a rare drop?
Ex. Might take 15 successes before you get a drop. Might take over 50 tries to get those 15 successes. And then you aren't guaranteed to get the drop since others will want it.

Or you spend 10-150mil depending on luck and get the item.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurymber

what if they made it hard and a rare drop?
Ex. Might take 15 successes before you get a drop. Might take over 50 tries to get those 15 successes. And then you aren't guaranteed to get the drop since others will want it.

Or you spend 10-150mil depending on luck and get the item.

---

Then I would kill it 50 times, and make 150 mil.

Then I would be at 350 mil.

Your logic. It's faulty.

@Azurymber.... A jealous poor person that wants rich people to be as poor as him. Don't be a consumer and you'll be rich too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Then I would kill it 50 times, and make 150 mil.

Then I would be at 350 mil.

Your logic. It's faulty.

---

That's irrational. By your logic no one would ever spend money, they would just specialize in different things and build whatever they want for themselves and trade wouldn't exist.

If you can make 150mil faster than you can do 50 raids then its logical to just make the money and spend the money to rush through the raids.

Just because you like to waste time doesn't mean everyone else will.

You're basically trying to argue that the core concepts behind capitalism are false (ex, specialization). And the success of the western world and of the application of capitalism to nearly every economy on the planet never happened.

So I'm sorry, my logic isn't faulty. Your lack of knowledge of economics is.

If this was implemented, people able to make money fast via crafting, gathering, niche farming, etc, would do so. They would sell their goods and then use their profits to do the raids quickly (assuming the raids get boring after 5 or 10 runs, which so far the general consensus is that they do).
This would allow people to amass gil for the sole purpose of using in a gil sink, thus reducing the total amount of gil on servers.

Having people use the gil in a raid is a better gil sink than selling items via NPC.
If you only need to spend 10mil per raid then people see it as a small gamble and think "i could get lucky and only need to spend this 10mil"
Whereas if you sell via NPC for 50mil it looks a lot more costly.

Further once people have gambled away 10mil they will feel like they need to take more risks in order to "make up the 10mil" by getting the item.

And before you try to come up with some argument like "well im not like that so its untrue" think about how almost all casinos get people to continue to gamble even when they consistently lose (ex. slot machines).

There is already something in the game that is a gil black hole, its called cooking. Ive dropped so much money on cooking and everything I make takes up way to much space so I give it away or vendor it and my cooking is only R44, the worst 6 ranks are still ahead of me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kwestro

@Azurymber.... A jealous poor person that wants rich people to be as poor as him. Don't be a consumer and you'll be rich too.

---

1. I'm nowhere near poor.
2. I'm an economist irl
3. At the moment the FFXIV economy will not function properly at PS3 release due to some people holding on to 100's of mil. If that gil is not drained prior to the PS3 release the games economy will fall apart quickly. This happened in FFXI due to similar reasons as a result of Rusty Cap Fish-botting.
4. What I proposed here is basic economic incentive-based policy. The policy creates an incentive for capable individuals to pool gil from across the server into their personal hands and then depost that gil into a gil sink to remove it from the economy. It's not magic, it's not revolutionary. It's quite simple.
edit 5: This does not make rich people "poorer", it just converts their gil into an item. A possibility would be to make those items trade-able so that they actually retain their value.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurymber

1. I'm nowhere near poor.
2. I'm an economist irl
3. At the moment the FFXIV economy will not function properly at PS3 release due to some people holding on to 100's of mil. If that gil is not drained prior to the PS3 release the games economy will fall apart quickly. This happened in FFXI due to similar reasons as a result of Rusty Cap Fish-botting.
4. What I proposed here is basic economic incentive-based policy. The policy creates an incentive for capable individuals to pool gil from across the server into their personal hands and then depost that gil into a gil sink to remove it from the economy. It's not magic, it's not revolutionary. It's quite simple.
edit 5: This does not make rich people "poorer", it just converts their gil into an item. A possibility would be to make those items trade-able so that they actually retain their value.

---

Remind me to never consult with you about my RL money then.

You might "throw" it away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Remind me to never consult with you about my RL money then.

You might "throw" it away.

---

Because people really throw dollar bills at their enemies in real-- Oh wait, you're just mocking the person instead of responding with a constructive solution for the problem. That's never happened in the history of the internet before.

There needs to be some kind of a gil sink eventually, because currently a lot of folks are running around with hundreds of millions of gil and as a result, the economy is completely hosed. Reminds me of ridiculous inflation on items back in the Aion days.

Honestly, one of the best ideas I've heard is to let people pay for Anima. Dissuades the potential for bots still trying to offer teleport services and takes away some of the players getting even richer off the same service, and gives the people something most of them really want. Even with chocobos/airships coming there'll still be a need for Anima, and it's an easy fix.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurymber

1. I'm nowhere near poor.
2. I'm an economist irl
3. At the moment the FFXIV economy will not function properly at PS3 release due to some people holding on to 100's of mil. If that gil is not drained prior to the PS3 release the games economy will fall apart quickly. This happened in FFXI due to similar reasons as a result of Rusty Cap Fish-botting.
4. What I proposed here is basic economic incentive-based policy. The policy creates an incentive for capable individuals to pool gil from across the server into their personal hands and then depost that gil into a gil sink to remove it from the economy. It's not magic, it's not revolutionary. It's quite simple.
edit 5: This does not make rich people "poorer", it just converts their gil into an item. A possibility would be to make those items trade-able so that they actually retain their value.

---

mog is right. most of the crafters i know of that have hundreds thousands worth of gil are not going to simply throw it away. no matter what type of incentive you put out unless someone deems the item worth it then they are not going to spend their money on it. the people that have amassed the gil have done so by being smart with how they spent it. i can't see many, if any, changing directions and then just blowing it on a chance of one item they are not assured of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

mog is right. most of the crafters i know of that have hundreds thousands worth of gil are not going to simply throw it away. no matter what type of incentive you put out unless someone deems the item worth it then they are not going to spend their money on it. the people that have amassed the gil have done so by being smart with how they spent it. i can't see many, if any, changing directions and then just blowing it on a chance of one item they are not assured of.

---

you dont make it so they blow gil. you make the item something like the p-charm of ffxiv. The point is the devs would have to create a big enough incentive for the item. Maybe just make it look -epic-. Like a judge helm.

I apologize but this might be the worst and most useless idea I have ever heard. Just because someone has alot of something doesnt mean they would throw it away. For me to throw gil at a monster it better throw double back....just saying.

Throw Gil has been in plenty of FF games so you guys don't have to sound elitist.

Maybe it's not the best idea but there's way too much money in the system. The markets need an enema.

This is how we solve our problems in the USA, throw money at it until it goes away.

You're assuming gil has no value. The economy hasn't got to a point where gil has no value, so why anyone, regardless of how much they have, would "toss" it for extra damage is utterly ridiculous. Gil will, at some point in this game be much more valuable than it is now. SE will add gilsinks and anyone with gil flowing out their ears are likely waiting for that moment in time so they can bask in the glory of the newest and greatest items on the day of their inception.

Your examples of brand names have literally no application to FFXIV or Gil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ava

You're assuming gil has no value. The economy hasn't got to a point where gil has no value, so why anyone, regardless of how much they have, would "toss" it for extra damage is utterly ridiculous. Gil will, at some point in this game be much more valuable than it is now. SE will add gilsinks and anyone with gil flowing out their ears are likely waiting for that moment in time so they can bask in the glory of the newest and greatest items on the day of their inception.

Your examples of brand names have literally no application to FFXIV or Gil.

---

yes they do...
if you make the item a judge helm so it looks awesome
and then say it will be the best DD helm in the game for at least 2 years
right there is an incentive to "throw" the gil in hope of getting the best helm that also looks epic.

My point is if they give a good enough item as a reward people will spend money to get it.

edit:
Translation:
IRL People will make money and spend it on elite items like designer clothes, sports cars, etc
Online People will make money and spend it on e-peen items
see the comparison?

If people didn't want the "elite" stuff then why would they spend time saving up money for it? Or why keep the money instead of giving it to many people and making many people happy? If people saved up more than they need and are holding on to it then by logic they are waiting for e-peen gear. so let them have a piece. And i explained how the innate luck of using gil toss in raids would work better as a drain than an npc selling the item.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurymber

yes they do...
if you make the item a judge helm so it looks awesome
and then say it will be the best DD helm in the game for at least 2 years
right there is an incentive to "throw" the gil in hope of getting the best helm that also looks epic.

My point is if they give a good enough item as a reward people will spend money to get it.

edit:
Translation:
IRL People will make money and spend it on elite items like designer clothes, sports cars, etc
Online People will make money and spend it on e-peen items
see the comparison?

If people didn't want the "elite" stuff then why would they spend time saving up money for it? Or why keep the money instead of giving it to many people and making many people happy? If people saved up more than they need and are holding on to it then by logic they are waiting for e-peen gear. so let them have a piece. And i explained how the innate luck of using gil toss in raids would work better as a drain than an npc selling the item.

---

The major flaw in your logic is that said person could achieve that goal without tossing gil. There is no free way to get a Gucci bag, you either fork out the money or you don't get one. In your examples, people can either obtain this item via hard work, determination, and good teamwork, Or they can be lazy and toss gil. It's not the same, at all.

If someone is sitting on 900+ million (some guy from a thread like last week had 940m), do you honestly think they would toss this gil they worked hard on to get an item they could get without tossing gil? They are a hard working person, with that much gil surely they are willing to go through the hard work for it.

Unless of course you're proposing that SE design brand new items that can ONLY be obtained by tossing gil, in which case they might as well just put them on a vendor, which is more or less surely what they will do when the time comes. But at this point that would be completely wasted development time.


Edit: Since you claim to be an "economist" irl, then it should be easy for you to see how impossible it is to compare the real life economy to an in game economy. In FFXIV anyone can be a crafter and make 999 million gil if they really wanted to. Not everyone IRL can be Steve Jobs.

I'd like to see em just arbitrarily cap it at 50 million, then watch em all scramble to buy new accounts to spread it around. Square profits, trolls, and I laugh.

Seriously though, if I earned 100 million+ through methods that weren't acquired by exploiting a not-very-well-thought-out system in the beginning, I'd want to hang on to it too, if for no other reason than capping a bunch of crafting skills some day. As time progresses, the game will only get easier and more casual, and having a lot of money and a sped up, less costly system to craft things would be a great position to be in.

Put in an AH to make players buy and sell stuff. If a large enough part of the playerbase takes part in trading then the economy will balance itself out.

Stop giving gil for completing leves if you don't want this game to be 99% about leve grinding.

Also make gear stats matter more. Completing darkhold in bikinis should be next to impossible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seif

Put in an AH to make players buy and sell stuff. If a large enough part of the playerbase takes part in trading then the economy will balance itself out.

Stop giving gil for completing leves if you don't want this game to be 99% about leve grinding.

Also make gear stats matter more. Completing darkhold in bikinis should be next to impossible.

---

Am I the only one that thinks the AH+mailboxes = RMT disaster?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurymber

you dont make it so they blow gil. you make the item something like the p-charm of ffxiv. The point is the devs would have to create a big enough incentive for the item. Maybe just make it look -epic-. Like a judge helm.

---

Azurymber, I agree with you gil sink is needed, but not through gil toss or distribution of buyable rare items.

If you ask me whether I'll spend 50M+ or even more on something extraordinary, I would like to see if this item is really worth the gils I earned. For gears/weapons with quite superior stats and no foreseeable exceeder, then I might consider; for an epic useless judge helm, just to show off, ABSOLUTELY NO!

Although your idea is reasonable, you should know most rich people did not earn and accumulate gils without efforts. It's not easy to keep 100M+ of gils when there're so many places you need to spend. They made it either by spending lots of time hunting faction NM drops earlier, making HQ items, etc. or be saving, or both. I see rich ppl making their own shards, instead of buying from ward. The huge amount of gils they own is not for no reason, and that's why they would think carefully when spending

Furthermore, I do NOT think selling superior items for simply gils is good for FFXIV. That would make the game gil-centric, and no other MMORPGs as I know is that way, because the most important thing for a game is FUN, not in-game currency. A good game operator should reward players who participates most, but not majorly for rich ppl.

In RL, I am an economist too. In my opinion, rich ppl is not a problem for the game because we do have rich ppl and monopolies in RL. It is the operational mechanism of the in-game economy - demands and supplies of items are not balanced. Like I said in other posts, besides making the game more fun, what the devs do should think of is how to fix the economic recession we're experiencing before PS3 release.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alexis_Arteme

Am I the only one that thinks the AH+mailboxes = RMT disaster?

---

Am I the only one who thinks there already is a RMT disaster going on and the lack of these basic game features is only harming the real players?

no point in that RMT will run the sells of every sever anyways. when the game adds more stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mattei

I apologize but this might be the worst and most useless idea I have ever heard. Just because someone has alot of something doesnt mean they would throw it away. For me to throw gil at a monster it better throw double back....just saying.

---

i second that this is a horrid idea

back to the drawing board you go

What was the name of the 7 million gil subligar in the CoP area that you could break down for a chance at a rare piece of cloth for the brd body?

Your plan wont work if the person spending the gil gets a rare item, they will just put it up for sale for lets say double/triple the gil they used to aquire it therefore creating a way to get a lot of gil very fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilethius

Your plan wont work if the person spending the gil gets a rare item, they will just put it up for sale for lets say double/triple the gil they used to aquire it therefore creating a way to get a lot of gil very fast.

---

Don't think you're getting the idea.
An economy has a numerical value of gil, lets say 3000 million. And its growing every day by lets say 1million.
Now lets say you "gil toss" 40million gil and get lucky and get a rare item.
The economy now has 2960mil gil growing at a rate of 1 million per day.
Now lets say you decide to sell the item the same day for 100 million
the economy still has 2960mil. You just "moved" the gil from one person to another in the economy. Which is fine.

The goal isn't to make rich people poor. Its to reduce the amount of gil in the economy so that when PS3 is launched the economy actually has a chance. Right now it doesn't.

Money is as easy as it ever was to make, it didn't come from lev's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madruk

Money is as easy as it ever was to make, it didn't come from lev's.

---

what did it come from....

What is this....I don't even...

Azurymber, I actually think it's quite an interesting idea. I don't have much gil at the moment myself, but if there was an epic item I wanted to toss gil at, I would if I had it. :3 We make money to do something with the money. Not to have it to stare at. It would be nice to have something to save gil to SPEND on.

I'm not sure why people get so.. quick to shoot down ideas to remove gil from the game. I'm worried for the future of the game right now. I would love to see more ideas to get gil out than people saying "well that's a terrible idea because of this and this and this!"

I like that SE lowered gil from leves, but I still worry about the amount of gil coming into the game versus leaving it.

Something I would spend millions on if SE let me, is housing. I wanna slowly build up my house to be huge! Let me upgrade the size and things and I'll pay a fortune! I'll save up for it. lol And then once it's done, I'll spend on decorating it! XD
That's just one idea though. I hope housing is very customizable (especially in size) and very expensive.
Not just housing though! I still want ships! It should be very expensive to build ships. X3

But as for more long term/commonly used things... I really do think anima should cost gil somehow. People use it all the time. Doesn't have to be expensive.. Just some gil leaving the game from it would be great.
SE could put more expensive gil sinks in now though, and lower the cost of things when servers' gil has gone down a bit.
I remember when chocobo prices went down in XI. :3

Keep the ideas coming Azury. ^-^/ You put a lot of thought into your threads.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nabiri

Azurymber, I actually think it's quite an interesting idea. I don't have much gil at the moment myself, but if there was an epic item I wanted to toss gil at, I would if I had it. :3 We make money to do something with the money. Not to have it to stare at. It would be nice to have something to save gil to SPEND on.

I'm not sure why people get so.. quick to shoot down ideas to remove gil from the game. I'm worried for the future of the game right now. I would love to see more ideas to get gil out than people saying "well that's a terrible idea because of this and this and this!"

I like that SE lowered gil from leves, but I still worry about the amount of gil coming into the game versus leaving it.

Something I would spend millions on if SE let me, is housing. I wanna slowly build up my house to be huge! Let me upgrade the size and things and I'll pay a fortune! I'll save up for it. lol And then once it's done, I'll spend on decorating it! XD
That's just one idea though. I hope housing is very customizable (especially in size) and very expensive.
Not just housing though! I still want ships! It should be very expensive to build ships. X3

But as for more long term/commonly used things... I really do think anima should cost gil somehow. People use it all the time. Doesn't have to be expensive.. Just some gil leaving the game from it would be great.
SE could put more expensive gil sinks in now though, and lower the cost of things when servers' gil has gone down a bit.
I remember when chocobo prices went down in XI. :3

Keep the ideas coming Azury. ^-^/ You put a lot of thought into your threads.

---

I think these are great ideas. I would be a huge supporter of the housing thing. And it would make a lot of sense of anima to either cost gil or for an npc in town to "recharge" anima for a medium-price.