Alexander

I'm kinda of upset we have to fight Alexander. Who has been a HOLY summon for YEARS! ; ; as a summoner this is disgraceful.... that is all.

And it can't be Holy and a foe ?

Well unless he is there to kill all cat people.

He'a also portrayed as a fortress or guardian. Apparently he is now a Goblin Fortress.

He is generally Holy as an element of light, and less as a religious savior (although Gobs may potentially see him that way). Besides, he's a Primal, and thus far they haven't proven to be very cuddly.

Just very far from what Alexander has been seen in the final fantasy games. I like the concept just not the primal choice and I don't know how the lore will play out with him trying to destroy the land or drain it.

Keep in mind that not all primals are harmful to the land by choice.

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Originally Posted by shawnaus1986

Well unless he is there to kill all cat people.

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If it is, i will fight it with everything i have available. :). I think primals in this game dont really adhere to holy = friendly trope though, the goblins are summoning him, so we have to reverse this otherwise he eats all the aether (or something like that, its lore stuff).

I'm kind of concerned, I remember suggesting that the Goblin Primal should be Alexandur, as a kind of joke bucket and bolts rusty knock off of Alexander, but they actually get the real thing? Damn Goblins, you scary. Was totally expecting some cheese related Primal after Brayflox (unless... Alexander runs off cheese?!).

As for us fighting him... Final Fantasy IV inspired. The Giant of Babil was basically the games version of Alexander, even went inside to fight him too. It's really noticeable if you look at Amano's artwork for it, the game sprite doesn't do it justice. Fully expecting the elemental fiends (Scarmiglione, Cagnazzo, Barbariccia, Rubicante) to make an appearance as bosses in the raid.

I think it's too early to be making any judgments (pun intended!)

technically this isn't the first time in a FF we fought Alexander. there was FFXI and interestingly enough FFIV. of course back in 4 he was called the Giant of babil.

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Originally Posted by DoctaruRavenbe

technically this isn't the first time in a FF we fought Alexander. there was FFXI and interestingly enough FFIV. of course back in 4 he was called the Giant of babil.

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Assuming that Alexander was indeed based off the Giant of Babil to begin with (although, the DS/iOS remake kind of pokes fun at that with Proto-Babil's Divine Judgment attack)...
But yeah, aside from FFXI, there was also FFXIII and FF Dimensions where it had to be fought as a boss.

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Originally Posted by DoctaruRavenbe

technically this isn't the first time in a FF we fought Alexander. there was FFXI and interestingly enough FFIV. of course back in 4 he was called the Giant of babil.

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I never knew that they were the same until I just saw some artwork from Amano. Personally I'd like to see a version of Alexander that eventually gets or has the entire lower torso and hands. Aside from that, everything I heard about Alexander and the goblins makes it seem like its loosely based on the concept from XI. Assuming it becomes self aware and self running as well, I'm going to speculate that it wont end well for whomever is controlling it.

You know, I think Holy Alexander fits the Goblins perfectly. I mean, the goblins are making this huge pilgrimage, and we have no idea what their home land is but we do know they love technology. What if Alexander is their homeland? After all, both historical and mythological beings can be brought back as primals, why not places as well? Hell, they are even using a old castle as it's base.

He fits perfectly for the Goblins. Not only as their holy mecha, but as their own holy Mecca.

I dunno, are we fighting HIM or stuff that's INSIDE him? Will those bosses inside be under his control, or maybe they're invaders and we're helping him?
Need to wait til the story gets there to find out, I guess.

I'm actually surprised they went with Goblins for summoning Alexander... Final Fantasy XI had a separate species of Goblins called Moblins who were said to have been "searching for an iron giant bathed in light" (which I can only assume is Alexander), perhaps they'll still make that distinction when we get more information. Would be a nice nod to a plot point which I don't think was ever really touched on in Final Fantasy XI. Unless the new expansion touched on it, I don't think they ever went into detail about it, just "they're digging for an iron giant, but they found this plot relevant statue instead".

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Originally Posted by Juroko

You know, I think Holy Alexander fits the Goblins perfectly.

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After Odin I'm incline to think Alexander will be a similar case. I don't think the Goblins have a Primal or significant focus of worship (outside cheese), but I could totally see them giving us an off shot tribe of Goblins who are organized and happen to find a relic which houses the spirit of an Elder Primal. Rather than a sword, they find a fortress though. They get tempered and now they're a serious threat with an Elder Primal at their back.

Lets not forget that when ever a god or divine being is summand they start to consume a lot of athear and the goblins purpose in summoning him is to be protected and since he is a massive entity that will consume a lot of athear we need to bring him down. Its not that all the summand being are evil they just eat at the athear the life blood of the land.

I'm pretty sure the whole Alexander summoning is because an Ascian showed up to the Illuminati (who are the leading scientific minds of Eorzea, supposedly even more so than Sharlaya, and their achievements include the materia system and several foul-smelling cheese recipes) and the Illuminati decided that basic summoning wasn't up to snuff, so they decided to summon him into a giant mechanical castle.

But I thought he would be much bigger though disappointed with that aspect to!

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Originally Posted by shawnaus1986

But I thought he would be much bigger though disappointed with that aspect to!

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The screenshots we have of him so far show him to be the size of a mountain so I'm not sure how big you were expecting him to be...

With regards to the OP though, remember that Ramuh wasn't a 'bad' primal either. We fought Ramuh because he wanted to test us. There's also the issue of the primals consuming aether at a dangerous rate which requires them to be put down. There's also Shiva, which is an entirely different situation. There are loads of ways Alexander can be introduced that don't make him an enemy but still needs us to fight him.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The screenshots we have of him so far show him to be the size of a mountain so I'm not sure how big you were expecting him to be...

There are loads of ways Alexander can be introduced that don't make him an enemy but still needs us to fight him.

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I'm going to hedge a theory on a FFXI approach.. The goblins found the thing, rebuilt and restored it. Having no way to power it with crystals alone. The Illuminati used data of primal summoning as a way to gather or channel its energy into the construct. Once its powered it's any ones guess as to when or if it'll be come uncontrollable. But in the meantime for some reason they continue to build on top of it making it even bigger all the while being powered by tapping the source where primals come from.. Then the Goblins and Illuminati in it start acting weird.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

that Ramuh wasn't a 'bad' primal either.

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I'll believe Ramuh isn't a bad primal when a reasonable explanation is given to why he tempered (stole the free will from) almost an entire species of peaceful people.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I'll believe Ramuh isn't a bad primal when a reasonable explanation is given to why he tempered (stole the free will from) almost an entire species of peaceful people.

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Wasn't the Sylphs' tempering a result of their summoning him to defend the woods? I seem to recall they knew that was the cost of summoning him to begin with. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think Ramuh has the same deliberate intention as Ifrit who just enjoys enthralling people.

I seem to recall Ramuh stating that the sylphs begged him to temper them, and he obliged.

what does tempering actually do?

Don't worry once we are done with it, it'll be even more holey.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Wasn't the Sylphs' tempering a result of their summoning him to defend the woods? I seem to recall they knew that was the cost of summoning him to begin with. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think Ramuh has the same deliberate intention as Ifrit who just enjoys enthralling people.

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I looked back at some quest dialogue to double check. Frixio described the event like this:

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These ones resorted to summoning Lord Ramuh to protect the wood from Imperial ones. This one counseled against doing so, but was not heeded. Against this ones wishes, Lord Ramuh was summoned...and all those ones who took part became touched ones. Touched ones, meanwhile, wanted to turn these ones into touched ones, and did know how...so this one fled to little Solace with all those ones who did not wish to be bound to Lord Ramuh.

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From that description, It could be that the summoning process itself caused the Tempering...but I don't think so, because Frixio also talks about the touched ones trying to get the other Slyphs tempered and since the Slpyhs of Little Solace wouldn't summon Ramuh then the method must not involve summoning. Instead I think it's the same method we've seen in action from other Primals, a deliberate tempering by the Primal itself.

So I take Frixio's description to mean that the Slyphs who summoned Ramuh were immediately tempered by him after he arrived and then they tried to capture non-tempered Slpyhs and bring them to Ramuh to be tempered. Ramuh may have thought he was doing this to them for their own protection, but it still hold that tempering is one of the most evil things that you can do to a person in FFXIV's universe.

I'm excited to fight Alexander tbh. I mean, think about the gear that it'll drop. Coil's final raid set dropped gorgeous Dreadwyrm gear to commemorate Bahamut. Think about what Alexander's gear designs would be to commemorate it in a holy aspect.

THE PRETTIES!

I did some digging and analysis RE Alexander a few weeks ago... I've had a little more time to think since then but I'm sure that some of you will find this pretty compelling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCAlMyKYUI4

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

So I take Frixio's description to mean that the Slyphs who summoned Ramuh were immediately tempered by him after he arrived and then they tried to capture non-tempered Slpyhs and bring them to Ramuh to be tempered. Ramuh may have thought he was doing this to them for their own protection, but it still hold that tempering is one of the most evil things that you can do to a person in FFXIV's universe.

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actually I remember Fernwhales answering this question at fanfest. He was the one whom stated that the sylphs who summoned Ramuh then also asked him to be tempered.

Considering the tempered Sylph were kidnaping the untempered Sylph when Ramuh wasn't even summoned, it seems likely that there could be an alternative method of tempering that doesn't involve the primal's direct action.

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Originally Posted by DoctaruRavenbe

actually I remember Fernwhales answering this question at fanfest. He was the one whom stated that the sylphs who summoned Ramuh then also asked him to be tempered.

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Man, I totally missed that. Do you by chance have a link to a video or a transcript of this I could check out?

Even with this new info, I still hold Ramuh to be evil though. If someone walked up to you and asked you to take away their free will and replace it with a zealot's desire to worship you, would you say yes if you were a good person?

But...I'm also repeatedly dragging this thread off topic ._. The morality of Ramuh always hits a nerve with me. My apologies everyone.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Considering the tempered Sylph were kidnaping the untempered Sylph when Ramuh wasn't even summoned, it seems likely that there could be an alternative method of tempering that doesn't involve the primal's direct action.

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Not really, they summoned him briefly once before 2.0 that's when he tempered the first time at that time Ramuh didn't try to harm anyone and vanished but the sylphs were concerned that if he is summoned again he might use his judgement bolt this time, and then the sylphs tempered each others.

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Originally Posted by shawnaus1986

Well unless he is there to kill all cat people.

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Nah gobos want more lala bbq and they'll share it with us cat folk ;)

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

Even with this new info, I still hold Ramuh to be evil though. If someone walked up to you and asked you to take away their free will and replace it with a zealot's desire to worship you, would you say yes if you were a good person?.

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I've always gotten the impression that Primals are less than 100% autonomous beings, and are manifests of the desires of the people who summon them. So he doesn't have a problem tempering Sylphs because the ones to summoned him want him to do it and he's largely a manifestation their own wills, despite having his own personality to a degree.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

From that description, It could be that the summoning process itself caused the Tempering...but I don't think so, because Frixio also talks about the touched ones trying to get the other Slyphs tempered and since the Slpyhs of Little Solace wouldn't summon Ramuh then the method must not involve summoning. Instead I think it's the same method we've seen in action from other Primals, a deliberate tempering by the Primal itself.

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From what I've seen in game, I've gathered that there are three ways an individual can become tempered:
- The Primal can do it to you personally. We witness Ifrit doing this to a crowd of people just before we fight him.
- You can take part in summoning a Primal. Frixio's dialogue indicates that is why the Touched Sylphs became Touched.
- Beast tribes can capture you and convert you even without the Primal being summoned. Numerous Beast Tribe daily quests deal with rescuing captured individuals before they can be Tempered - and one in particular involving the Sahagin, you are sent to rescue people knowing SOME but not ALL of them have been Drowned and will need to be put down. Since this quest can be performed BEFORE you fight Leviathan in the Main Scenario (canonically, it has been many years since the last summoning), it's clear that the actual presence of the Primal is not required. (Unless they use a handful of crystals to summon an Egi or something.)

I'd never heard of Fern mentioning that the Touched Sylphs asked Ramuh to Temper them. I can't imagine why they'd do so, but even if that is the case it does not necessarily change any of the above.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

- You can take part in summoning a Primal. Frixio's dialogue indicates that is why the Touched Sylphs became Touched.

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I can see where this might be true, but I don't think we have enough information yet to say. Frixio doesn't flat out tell us that it was the summoning process itself that tempered the Slpyhs, only that all those that took part in it were eventually tempered, which would make sense because those Slyphs that summoned Ramuh would be on hand when he first arrived and so he could easily temper them himself.

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- Since this quest can be performed BEFORE you fight Leviathan in the Main Scenario (canonically, it has been many years since the last summoning), it's clear that the actual presence of the Primal is not required. (Unless they use a handful of crystals to summon an Egi or something.)

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I'm leery of using gameplay to figure out a lore timeline. The Sahagin dailies and the leviathan fight were both added in patch 2.2, which I think suggests that they would be happening side by side to each other in time, despite what order you actually do them in as a player.

My question of now when we fight the primals now, after the Keeper of the Lake.

What keeps us from being Tempered? Cause "so and so" didn't mention anything about making sure we couldn't be after doing the deed.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

My question of now when we fight the primals now, after the Keeper of the Lake.

What keeps us from being Tempered? Cause "so and so" didn't mention anything about making sure we couldn't be after doing the deed.

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The Echo is what keeps us from being tempered. We lost the Blessing of Light, not the Echo, hence why we can understand Ascians following the Keeper of the Lake dungeon. The Blessing of Light is what made Ultima Weapon and Lahabrea such pushovers in Praetorium.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

My question of now when we fight the primals now, after the Keeper of the Lake.

What keeps us from being Tempered? Cause "so and so" didn't mention anything about making sure we couldn't be after doing the deed.

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I think it's Ifrit, but a Primal states that the PC has already been "claimed" by another. There's nothing confirming it, but I operate under the assumption that we were already tempered in a way and she's just a nice person to have our soul claimed by.

It should be noted that even if we now can be tempered by primals like everyone else, by the time we got to that point only Odin was around, and so far the only tempering he seems to do is via the sword.

On Ramuh, he seems more of a neutral force then anything else, only really concered with protecting the Slyphs...kinda like the Elements with the forest. He seems to lean towards good as well, but ultimately it was only be proving our strength that he decided not to try and attack the city-states. I would put Titan in this as well based on what we know of him, though with papa bear instincts keeping him from reason when we got there.

As for Alexander...well I read what someone said they did in XI, but by this point with what has happened, it could be anything. Hell, for all we know the summoning process the Ascians gave the tribes just corrupts the Primals, and in the Alexander raid he had enough sense to somehow get a message to us so we could try and destroy the corruption in him and return him to truly being holy.