Change default to make it so bosses can't be pulled during cutscenes

Am sure this has been suggested before, but since FF games are so much about story, would love it if bosses were made immune / unpullable so long as anyone in the group is watching one of the cutscenes.

On the one hand, I certainly understand that some of the instances have some mighty long cutscenes in them, certainly longer than I would think ideal for the middle of instances, but it really does take away from the experience, with folks being locked out / hounded to watch them in the inn at the end, etc., and told that if they want to watch the story they should set up Party Finder instances saying that they want to watch the cutscenes. This really is backwards, though, imho. The default should be that the cutscenes will play, and if waiting that extra bit really is going to kill someone, they should be the ones who have to go out of their way to set up Party Finder groups, especially since the Duty Finder version is the one that's required to move the story along.

I agree, too many people wanna rush through everything, but that takes the fun out of it. When preparing to fight a boss that has a cutscene I think that circle barrier that appears in primal battles should appear, maybe around the boss instead of the player. I don't think i should have to go to the inn to enjoy the story.

I fully agree, I get tired of others always saying that the ones wanting to watch the cut scenes are being rude and should just watch you tube or at the inn. They are missing the whole idea of what are only 2 level 50 dungeons that are directly part of the last part of the main story! Final Fantasy games are always story focused and yet so many players only care about getting to "end game" as fast as possible. Both dungeons make you feel like you part of a grand and dangerous adventure. I feel it was a mistake to include the main scenario dungeons in the roulette as players want to do those as fast as possible. Maybe SE should create a different version for doing those roulettes that has no cut scenes in them. For the story version make a separate duty finder that includes your suggestion, to keep players from forcing others to skip the cut scenes or be locked out of boss fights.

Not to mention the Cutscenes at the inn are the shorter edited version of the cutscene. The inn does not contain the full version of the storymode cutscences ,they are shorter edited versions of it.

I was able to find the full cut scenes, they aren't part of the main scenario ones but part of that particular dungeon, that said I watched them and found they were missing some of the really important ones in the two dungeons. That and how many actually spend the time to go back and watch them. As soon as they are done most are off to the races to get their relic and getting to "end game".

Well as if to give this thread more credit, I was just in a Main Scenaro Duty Roulette, I got Castrum Meridianum, had a role bonus and a noob bonus. Well that all went down the drain because when I defended the new players' right to watch the cut scenes I wound up getting booted a minute later. Well I reported the guy and the run and made sure to mention that another player, both of us healers, supported the two new players right to watch the scenes and not miss out on the fights. One of them even said, and I quote, "Really? Watched the cutscene and locked out." The other one said, "Are we still gonna get credit for this quest?".

This is a big issue Square please do something.

Unfortunately, even if they implemented such a feature, it still wouldn't remove player attitudes towards those who want to watch the cutscenes - such idiots would then just insist on "players who already cleared dungeon only!" and would immediately boot anyone who says "I'm new" at the start.

Short of completely removing the ability to skip cutscenes in a dungeon period, I don't see any easy way to fix this sadly without someone abusing or exploiting it (or making life hell for those of us who like to play a dungeon how it was supposed to be played, that is, watching the cutscenes).

And Eloah, you deserve commendations! :D

I also was in a Daily Roulette for one of the two, don't remember, we had a new player and he was locked out of the first boss since he wanted to watch the cut scenes, he was very upset, and very unusually the tank who was going to keep locking out the new player was voted to be booted! That is so rare. I personally think those two should be removed from the Roulette or as I mentioned before make a different version such as a hard mode one, for the Roulette with no cut scenes and not part of the main story. As Enkidoh stated the story version, cut scenes can't be skipped or the other I think better idea is to remove the timer for the boss fights. I know this was probably put in place to keep players from going afk and making everyone wait for a long time. I guess the timer could be increased to the time it would take for a cut scene to be normally completed.

I didn't have room to add to my last reply, so additional post. I do believe that SE really needs to make some kind of real change here as this has been one of the most contentious issues in this game since the start. It could be that Japanese players are much different in this regard, it seems that most players at least in NA, not sure about other regions, seem to be on the impatient side and want to speed through everything. Those two dungeons were a great idea but need to be done in a way that doesn't cause so much anger and frustration with players, which ruins the fun.

I definitely think SE needs to do something to make cutscenes more integral to the game. I am tired of this new breed of gamers who refuse to read a thing and complain when they can't skip a cutscene. You might as well listen to music and ignore all the words.

See, while something really needs to be done, removing them from roulette would actually make it WORSE because then nobody would ever be able to find a party for it.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

And Eloah, you deserve commendations! :D

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Thank you, but I think all of us who defend a new players right to experience the game, cutscenes and all deserve a commendation. It's like most people forget that at one point they were new too. Also, I got a response from the support desk and hopefully something will be done.

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Originally Posted by Lainmyst

It could be that Japanese players are much different in this regard, it seems that most players at least in NA, not sure about other regions, seem to be on the impatient side and want to speed through everything.

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I actually lived in Japan for about a year, and can say, from my own experience, as well as other peoples, Japanese or otherwise, that it's not so much lack of impatience it a sense of respect for the whole. What I mean is, in America, and I assume most other European based countries, we are more focused on the individual, usually ourselves, and if we are having a good time then we sorta don't care about anyone else. Whereas in Japan they focus on the group, and try to have everyone enjoy themselves equally; "we win as a group, lose as a group" mentallity, nothing like the "it's your fault we lost" mentality.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I actually lived in Japan for about a year, and can say, from my own experience, as well as other peoples, Japanese or otherwise, that it's not so much lack of impatience it a sense of respect for the whole. What I mean is, in America, and I assume most other European based countries, we are more focused on the individual, usually ourselves, and if we are having a good time then we sorta don't care about anyone else. Whereas in Japan they focus on the group, and try to have everyone enjoy themselves equally; "we win as a group, lose as a group" mentallity, nothing like the "it's your fault we lost" mentality.

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Thanks for your update, from my knowledge of Japanese, and Asian culture in general what you say is very true. I can understand that SE had no idea the cuteness we are talking about here would cause so much division among players, I do hope they find a good way to address this.

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Originally Posted by Aatrox

See, while something really needs to be done, removing them from roulette would actually make it WORSE because then nobody would ever be able to find a party for it.

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Depends how it is done, they have been around long before there was a roulette, However unless someone can get a party of 8 to help from their FC it could be tough, unless there were an incentive. Perhaps giving a bonus for those who are helping that have done it before, providing they don't lock out anyone from a boss while watching a cutscene. There are many creative ideas I am sure the Devs could come up with.

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Originally Posted by IsaacDamodred

I definitely think SE needs to do something to make cutscenes more integral to the game. I am tired of this new breed of gamers who refuse to read a thing and complain when they can't skip a cutscene. You might as well listen to music and ignore all the words.

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It's funny you post this, I was in the new boss fight with Gilgamesh for the first time, the cut scene when he changes to his true form isn't that long and yet a party member got angry that anyone was watching it! These people not only have no patience but don't care about any story at all.

One method is to remove the "cut-scene" but have the story be told through the environment. Or natural barriers such as running a long gantry while watching a scene unfold to your right or left with a NPC conveying what is going on. As you head to the boss or kill trash you can visually be interactive with the story.

Cut-scenes have their place in the game, CM and praetorium much of it could have been removed and placed as sub-text during an encounter. Most cut-scenes is of you standing and doing nothing, which really doesn't convey the importance of what your doing. Moving to your objective while under attack and having the story unfold as you fight your way through shows the importance. Cut-scenes have static view points, environmental allows different perspectives each time you go into the instance. This caters to both new and repeats alike to the encounter, new being able to take in the story, and repeats running to get their bonus. I hope to see this in the expansion.

^ this. Yeah that sounds a lot like a World of Warcraft instance. Those were actually fun.

They just made a big mistake with the inclusion of such long (and largely pointless) cutscenes in the story dungeons (the earlier ones anyway, the later ones they obviously learnt it was an issue). Forcing people to watch the CS (or wait for others to) will just result in no one doing roulette for main scenario, which will mean newbies won't be able to progress. Best advice I would give, and i did this myself, is to watch the cutscenes and don't worry about the fights your first time. Then when you run it again, skip the cutscenes, and piece it all together yourself. You will one day be one of the people getting annoyed if you were forced to watch cutscenes (because you watch it once, and then never again, but would still have to wait around for others to).

I keep hearing that the cutscenes that were in CM and Paetro, were a mistake. As was stated earlier in this thread, I believe that SE hadn't realized that the west had a very different take on this kind of thing. We are more individualistic and probably more impatient then the Japanese are. That said I got to be in a party 2 times that wanted to experience all the cutscenes, it was amazing and no one was locked out of a boss, we all had a great time! This was not a mistake on SE's part at all it is just a sad reality that many gamers here in the west are always in a hurry for everything. I believe this thread was focused on giving SE ideas for making the experience for new players that would enjoy those cut scenes a way to view them as intended and not forced to either not take part in the boss fights or watch them on You Tube or the Inn.

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Originally Posted by Deifact

You will one day be one of the people getting annoyed if you were forced to watch cutscenes (because you watch it once, and then never again, but would still have to wait around for others to).

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My experience so far; those who love the lore and story of the game, also enjoy those cutscenes, and are happy to let others watch them, even later. Usually it's players who already don't like watching the cutscenes who tend to get impatient later on. It seems that just doesn't apply only to those two dungeons but any cutscene in any dungeon or trial. I remember some getting upset when anyone dared to watch the cutscene at the start of Levi, back when it first came out. Recently I ran the Gilgamesh fight for the first time and someone got mad that some of us were watching a cut scene. Gamers have been complaining about cut scenes for ages whether it is a Final Fantasy game or other RPGs. It will be interesting to see if this is ever resolved.

[QUOTE=Deifact;2762485]They just made a big mistake with the inclusion of such long (and largely pointless) cutscenes in the story dungeons (the earlier ones anyway, the later ones they obviously learnt it was an issue).
First; the cutscenes in Castrium and Praetorium where hardly pointless. I have been able to do both and watch them all, they carried the story and had very important lore in them, obviously you didn't care and it sounds like your one the impatient ones that aren't really all that interested in the story,.
Secondly; only Stone Vigil before those two, and after them, there have been no dungeons, (until Keeper of the Lake) that were tied in with the main scenario. Perhaps Snow Cloak was but it was mainly just a new dungeon and did't involve Ice Heart directly. Both Castrium, and Paetrorium where special. Perhaps they could have been done a bit differently but cutscenes are a part of what Final Fantasy games are, I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Lainmyst

First; the cutscenes in Castrium and Praetorium where hardly pointless.

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Some cut-scenes would have been better expressed in another form. The first boss in Praetorium, Gaius could have been above on a gantry while you fight the boss, a dialogue goes on between Cid and he, with Cid doing something like trying to stop Gaius. Some cut-scenes do not feel natural to the flow of what is going on and even interfere with gameplay. Blowing up the airship while trying to kite a giant, that one could have been animated in the background making it look more awesome, and not making it a hassle kiting the giant. Turning off the alarms or polluting the cerelium in CM, taking you into a cut-scene is not necessary and breaks the flow of the run and would have been better expressed with a NPC leading or narrating what is going on. There are certain cut-scenes that could have been greatly condensed and the story be made actually stronger for it, mostly in Praetorium.

In many ways I totally agree, I have seen what you have suggested in WoW. When doing the Sands of Time dungeons, Artus runs with you through part of them. I think Cid could have been running along with everyone and that explosion you talked about would have been much more exciting if we all witnessed in the actual dungeon. However I still don't believe they are pointless. That said, it's pretty much too late for SE to change those two story dungeons. This thread as it was started, is coming up with ideas that SE might implement at some point in the future, to make those two dungeons less of an issue for new players wanting to see the cut scenes. Also to remove what aggravates them the most, being punished by locking them out of the boss fights. When I got to see them in the dungeons for me and others it made those dungeons far more dynamic and pulled them away from being a typical dungeon.

I use to play The Secret World. Before I decided to get that game the reviews I read praised the dungeons on how powerful they were. It was the cut scenes in them that took the dungeon beyond the usual dungeon experience. When I finally got to do them with a friend's guild, I was blown away by the fact that, even though they had done these many times, they all insisted I watch all of the cut scenes. They were similar to how they are done in Castrium and Paetroium that you watched them, then continued on with the battles. This was before FFXIV was released. My point here is: the community there enjoyed the story and wanted others to enjoy the story too, this isn't the case in FFXIV much of the time. My other point is even though perhaps they could have been done differently, when played as intended, I loved those two dungeons because they didn't feel like a typical dungeon. It would be good to somehow make a change that would allow many others to have this experience.

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Originally Posted by Lainmyst

This thread as it was started, is coming up with ideas that SE might implement at some point in the future, to make those two dungeons less of an issue for new players wanting to see the cut scenes. Also to remove what aggravates them the most, being punished by locking them out of the boss fights.

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Ways to resolve the issue:
1. Remove it off the DF and put it as a PF only and have people who are friends and family or those who haven't run it go with you that wish to watch it with you.
2. Revamp the dungeon itself to make it more favorable to new and old alike.
3. Story DF is only available to those who haven't done it and can pull others for help by partying and queuing those in.
4. Change the lockout rules.
5. Make it 4-man party.

There is nothing stopping those from using the PF to call upon people who wish to experience the story for themselves.

Those are all good ideas. I suggested earlier in this thread that they could be removed from roulette or at least make a main scenario only version that changes the lock out rules, then give some kind of bonus to those who are willing to help out the new players. The version that stays in the roulette could be cut scene free. A mix of your ideas may work as well. The only issue with the party finder, and it does have the option to request story focused and no cut scene skipping, that it can take a long time to get a party together that way. At least in my experience. That is why I think your one suggestion to "revamp" those dungeons to make them more favorable for new and old alike would be a good direction to move in.
I do know as we move forward past 3.0 and beyond, they will be almost forgotten, but there will always be new players. It would be good to make changes to make the experience a good one for as many as possible.

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Originally Posted by Lainmyst

At least make a main scenario only version that changes the lock out rules, then give some kind of bonus to those who are willing to help out the new players. The version that stays in the roulette could be cut scene free.

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Already exists, through PF and partying and queuing with people in your party. The roulette is to reduce the wait time of people who want story mode so cut-scene free defeats that purpose. Lock-out rule changes to allow people into an encounter can easily be made fair.

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Originally Posted by Lainmyst

it can take a long time to get a party together that way.

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Its the compromise you have to make if you want to watch the story. There have been speedruns of CM and prae before the roulette existed (philostone grind?),they were doing it less than a month after release. Roulette made it worth more to run it, making it more of a speedrun fest along with the soldiery bonus from a new person gives them even more incentive to run faster.

I am very aware that current and future players can use the party finder or make pre-mades. I think it is ironic that its the players who wish to run these two dungeons as intended are the ones being forced to make the compromise, though I am aware they are probably in the minority. I am also aware of, and had to deal with the history of CM and Paetro. SE did a hot fix that added WP and AK to get the tomes from, and changed CM to try and prevent speed runs, that of course led to new players having to wait along time to do those.
That said, my suggestions were just ideas that SE might think about; along with yours and other's suggestions in this thread. Bottom line is this will only affect future "new" players. I am sure these days new players, especially after 3.0 comes out are going to feel very rushed to get up to 50 and get their ilevels as fast as possible, to keep up with their FC mates. So I guess unless some kind of serious change is made, many new players will have no idea what the story is all about. i know some don't care but I know others do.

Preventing entry into boss arenas while new players are in cutscene would definitely help. Locking new players out of boss battles because they are actually trying to experience the game narrative is shameful, and unfortunately extremely common.

Some people hate cutscenes, or have seen them many times before, but that doesn't justify destroying the game narrative for new players by forcing them to either skip cutscenes or miss out on boss battles.

Many people love the story aspect of Final Fantasy - for those players, watching the cutscenes in the inn (or battles on twitch/youtube) is nothing like actually experiencing them in context, without (yet) knowing how it's going to end!

(Guildhests might already have a system in place where players are locked in a blue circle while new players are watching the cutscenes?)

Item level sync would also help reduce the incentive for overgeared players to lock the healers (at least) out of the boss arena.

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Originally Posted by Deifact

Best advice I would give, and i did this myself, is to watch the cutscenes and don't worry about the fights your first time. Then when you run it again, skip the cutscenes, and piece it all together yourself. You will one day be one of the people getting annoyed if you were forced to watch cutscenes (because you watch it once, and then never again, but would still have to wait around for others to).

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This is so sad.... it's like if you went to a movie and everyone fast-forwarded to the ending while you were getting popcorn! Then they tell you "you can watch the whole thing when it comes out on Blu-ray or Netflix, duh!"

Or watching the next season of your favorite TV series but having the ending come on before the middle episodes.

No culture is any more tolerant then any other, sorry but HUMANS are all the same every last one of us ^^

At any rate I fully agree that ppl should not feel pressured to skip any cs if they have an interest in them.

Se imo needs to stop adding cs into dungeons completely though. I empathize that some players love lore and actually get immersed with cs, that's excellent but many don't.

In order to please both , in the future dungeons ...don't have any Oo.

For the lore fans make certain to have an epic long, very engaging and immersive cs BEFORE the dungeon, on the final quest before opening the dungeon and another after exiting. Fans do deserve to get these epic moments...just keep them out of the dungeon itself and no one will need to wait endlessly and no one will ever feel that unwarranted pressure either.

/solved

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Originally Posted by Avenger

Some people hate cutscenes, or have seen them many times before, but that doesn't justify destroying the game narrative for new players by forcing them to either skip cutscenes or miss out on boss battles.

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And as hard as it is to fathom it is justified, everyone is after something when they queue into an instance and to deny and hinder that IS wrong, they have equal right to do it no one has rights over one another when your in the DF. IF the speed runners out number the new players in that group that is just too bad.

Blame falls on the design and it allowing such things to be. SE could have added the roulette, put no reward on it, and no new person reward, you queue in to assist. This will increase the wait time its an unavoidable compromise, everything will not always go your way when people are involved. There is every option to PF it, this is a "social" game, make friends through the PF or join a FC that wants to engage the content with you.

The cutscenes in both have been an issue from the start, I know SE made CM and Paetro special since at the time they were the grand finale of the main story. They were contentious sadly from the beginning. They were the only way to get philosophy stones to upgrade gear so the speed runs began. That was fixed later on and yes i agree the design should have been different. Alternate dungeons should have been made to get tomes from and those two could have been special, only done in context with the story. I understand that during development, Yoshi asked the devs to play WoW and possibly other mmos, so they understand what people enjoy. The Secret World may have been one of them since, as far as I know, it is the only MMO prior to this game that had cut scenes throughout the dungeons. They must have felt this would be a great experience for the players as it was in that mmo. Obviously for FF14 ARR that wasn't the case. Can't take the cat out of the bag in this case, hopefully it will be resolved after 3.0

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Originally Posted by Lainmyst

The Secret World may have been one of them since, as far as I know, it is the only MMO prior to this game that had cut scenes throughout the dungeons.

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SE took the influence from XI, which has a fair share of cut-scenes. You can feel the influence through the way some of the cut-scenes are presented, many similar NPC cut-scenes of NPCs discussing things in great detail, some of which could be excepts instead of full blown monologues. Cut-scenes have their place in the game, they have power to express a focus, show scale of a story point, ex. Destruction of a City, Epic moment. A cut-scene does narrow the view of things which could otherwise have been more interesting if expressed in another form. The interaction between Cid and Gaius could have been done in a more interactive form with Cid leading and you fighting along side him or at least in parallel of him. How much stronger it would be story-wise if Cid was involved in every step of the way.

I'd love for having an NPC along like Cid that narrates part of the stuff going on. It's certainly something they could plan for future story stuff. And I do like cutscenes in dungeons. They add a bit of flavour that an epic pre and post CS just can't give it justice. Or make a cutscene that moves you along - i.e. in CM after the first boss you basically just run along until the first mobs for a while. Why couldn't that cutscene basically show you going in and sneaking to the next post instead of you get out of cutscene and you are still there and need to move along?

Something similar in Prae... after you blow the door you get auto dismounted no matter where on the path you are. Why not port the PC to that spot then?

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Originally Posted by fixitfelix

SE took the influence from XI, which has a fair share of cut-scenes.

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I agree, I did play FFXI for along time, there were some great cut-scenes. In fact now that I remember many forced you to skip them too. I usually tried to watch them but that left you in a worse position then being locked out of a boss. You had to find where the party went to with mobs that could one shot you on the way. Cut-scenes are a very much part of Final Fantasy games, Japanese RPG games as a whole. I guess they will always be loved by some and hated by others.