I've seen a lot of complaints about how grindy the new Zodiac quest is. I'm actually cool with that and think it's fun (for the most part). The problem as I see it is that having to run old content over and over (especially when they're overgeared) motivates people to want speedruns.
Now, generally this isn't too much of a problem. I'm an i115 tank and I know most of the dungeons pretty well. However, I've been doing most of my runs in DF not wanting to drive the rest of my FC crazy LOL. Well what I've encountered are a lot of demanding people.
One of the things I love about tanking is that the tank sets the pace of the dungeon. And one of the things I HATE about tanking is... that the tank sets the pace of the dungeon.
Many people complain that there aren't enough tanks or that tanks are bad. I think this is in part due to the demanding nature of some of these DF groups. Some want fast runs, some want slow runs. I'm personally happy somewhere in the middle. Like a 15-20 min dungeon run seems like a success to me. MAYBE we can shave off a minute or two sometimes but often at the expense of a lot of extra stress.
Besides, just because a tank knows a dungeon doesn't necessarily mean they know how to skip mobs or what might be the absolute fastest method. I got told I sucked and should not play a tank last night, for example, in what was, on the surface a pretty successful run of Pharos Sirius (no deaths, completed in 15-20 min). I'm not really sure why this was but I assume because I didn't know how to make that run a minute or two quicker.
I think this expectation for DF is way out of proportion to what the average group in DF is capable of. But the mix of expectations means that it is hard to please. Maybe you get yelled at for going too fast in one run and the next run you go faster only to get yelled at for not slowing down or because the healer is stressed by how much you pull.
TL;DR - The demanding nature of some players is why there are less tanks and why some tanks seem bad. The relic quest has greatly increased the demand for speedruns in DF. If you want a guaranteed good, fast group, remember that PF is a thing. Thanks.
The Real Problem with Zodiac (Tank Speedrun Woes)
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12-20-2014, 02:30 AMPurrfectstormThe Real Problem with Zodiac (Tank Speedrun Woes)
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12-20-2014, 02:35 AMSadana
I wish that folks who want speed runs would just stay out of the DF. ._. But, having read many (many) threads on the subject before... they wish the same from folks who take a more laid-back approach. Would a checkbox in the DF for "Speedrun" work? ><;
eta: And please don't respond with, "then no one would run low level dungeons at regular speed", this is clearly not the case. Also, don't just say, "use the PF", since folks can't PF for low level roulette (for example). -
12-20-2014, 02:52 AMRenik
That's why i stopped tanking in DF, and now most these people is complaining about the lack of tanks and the insane ques. SE is working on a way to run dungeons with a set of NPCs, i hope this helps, because the human nature will never change, you can't trust on the player-base to behave correctly.
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12-20-2014, 02:55 AMIlitsaI hope they make the NPCs complain after every pull, just to poke fun at the people that like to complainQuote:
Originally Posted by Renik
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12-20-2014, 02:56 AMHiruke
Personally, I dislike 2 things about most tanks:
1) Waiting forever to pull mobs (i.e., they aren't waiting for buffs, they are just standing around for no apparent reason)
2) Taking wild amounts of damage due to poor cooldown management, poor gear optimization, not moving out of AoEs, whatever.
3) Ok, 3 things: Not holding threat. Come on, guy. Use more Flash/Overpower.
People who hate tanks for not taking the most optimum path are a little too finicky. Personally, in DF, I'd like to see:
a) Someone not level 50? Hey, this is an xp run. Pull it all.
b) Everything level 50? Let's hurry it up, ok?
I kind of hate going into dungeons with myself being anything other than the tank, just because I hate having to deal with the nonsense that comes with most tanks. If the tank is not wasting time unnecessarily and is actually tanking, people should just get over it if the tank doesn't pull the dungeon the "absolute best way". Be happy it's not as awful as it usually is. -
12-20-2014, 02:58 AMDoki
As a tank grinding away at Zodiak step, please keep in mind that the instances below level 50 will have people queuing that want XP, so speedruns where you sac pull are rude, if not agreed upon by all at the start.
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12-20-2014, 03:01 AMCyrus-Wallace
But if you find 3 people out of 4 that want to SR the dungeon, then the 4th player is the one that is off. It's the same situation, in DF there're no specific rules. And yeah, the argument of using the PF is flawed, because we can even say the same here "If you want a slow run, PF"; "If you want a SR, PF", "If you want a sac pulling run, PF", "If you want to watch CS, PF", etc. You will do whatever they want to do if they're majority. If you/they don't agree, they can kick you without being punished by the rules, because it goes against their "gameplay", as already stated. Granted, you're a tank, they are hard to find... but we're not entitled to make them do what we want. It's true that I perceive tanks as a leader, but one thing is being a leader and other thing is being a boss. You can't force people to do what you want.
On my experience, I finished my zodiac by mostly using DF, and almost EVERY run was a speedrun. No one complained. Ever. Following my own experience... Sometimes, when I see the tank is good, as a healer I pull more for him. I know I can heal through it. The DPS most of the time thank me about it. The tanks never complained. When I play tank, I ask the healer if he feels comfortable with big pulls, checking the DPS if they can manage it. If I play DPS, it's up to the tank and healer. I suggest it but I won't force them to do it. -
12-20-2014, 03:08 AMPurrfectstormI did DD and AV with my FC. AV only took 1 run and DD took 4. So luckily this wasn't an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doki
In cases like this I'd ask first and hope we could all agree. I was in an AV group for an Atma book a while ago and 3 of the 4 players were at level 50 and wanted to skip mobs and the other player wanted xp. We simply could not agree, but I would hope that majority vote works in these cases. Unfortunately, that time the under 50 player ran off and pulled mobs that nobody else was pulling making it a very miserable experience. The party disbanded and we went back to our queues (some probably waiting longer than others, like the dps who had wanted to be difficult).
It was lose-lose for all of us because we all wasted time. This seems to happen frequently with disagreeable people - they lose more time being jerks than sometimes giving way or holding their tongues. I've been on both sides of this and it's not a good experience either way. -
12-20-2014, 03:12 AMFranSeara
My anti - speed runner(s) tactic is to come in at "Item Level". If the DF is 80 I come at 80. I don't want to speed run everything in this game. I understand other players may want to speed run but maybe they should just use PF for it. I was almost kicked from a HM roulette item lv 80 because the Tank and I think buddy thought I was too under geared for the DF. I was Item lv 96. I feel this new relic quest has made speed running in Dfs worse then before.
ps. I'am on the Quest, I have 2 nexus weapons, I'm not in a rush. -
12-20-2014, 03:18 AMPurrfectstormI agree with you 100%. But you can't ever be MADE to do better than your best. Nor should you have to "drive" faster than you are comfortable. There are speedruns where you finish a dungeon quickly (imo 15-20 min), there are speedruns where you shave off a few min (13-14 min), and then there are speedruns where you're aiming for completely unrealistic numbers. I think the first case is reasonable of a DF speedrun but probably not the other two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace
In other words, it's not necessarily a case of WON'T but a case of CAN'T. When it's to my benefit to complete as fast as possible, I'm not going "slow" on purpose and I don't think a 1-2 min slower run (or any amount of minutes) justifies the abuse I've witnessed. -
12-20-2014, 03:27 AMShiki_Lockhart
When I did my dungeons I went as tank since was faster queues I was getting often 2-3 commendations. And all I did was trying to finish them the fastest way according to player lvl and jobs. If I had a low lvl healer I had to do split pulls or several splits if 2 or 2 DD were low too. Of course being polite and giving instructions if need so they expect what i will do.
Is like, you go to DF and you get a healer lvl 110 then 1 bard and 1 blm lvl 110+ what you expect to do? Slow? Of course not, right? Even If you get a ranged and 1 melee high speed runs is still possible as long healer is high to keep up with heals and dps to finish them fast to not burden both tank and healer. Now if I get 2 melees even being high I do small packs since is better that and I will still finish as if was speed run.
About telling tanks being bad they got a good solution, go tank yourselves. You don't want? Then deal with it... Simple. -
12-20-2014, 03:34 AMCyrus-WallaceSadly, some players think everybody play like they do or they'll find people equally geared or that follow their strategy as if it was a universal thing, and that's a common mistake. I agree with you with that point, there're limits. You'll (Not you as you, but as a random player) find yourself in a tough situation if you don't meet the expectative of the other three guys. sometimes they'll understand and slow down, sometimes they won't. They will either kick you or they're going to rage quit. Again, it'll be what the majority wants. :/ DF is a russian roulette. Unfortunately, we can't control the people that join it... it's a hit or miss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm
But the point is and I agree with it, this kind of content feeds these attitudes, but let's be honest... almost every part of the relic/zodiacal questline was used as a competitive thing. People want to hurry up, people want to get the new shiny thing NOW. People don't care about others until they accomplish their goals. This segment of the questline might be an exception, since I noticed itwas very welcoming to new players as well. That extra Soldiery? yes, please. -
12-20-2014, 03:35 AMKrr
Wait, are there level 50 dungeons where it's a reasonable speed increase to sacpull over just aoe bombing an entire hallway?
I wanna know which. You know, for...recordkeeping...on my Warrior... -
12-20-2014, 03:38 AMIlitsa
Personally, the overall attitude people get in DF that the OP described is the exact reason I'll only tank in a 4/4, dungeon group with my FC. I have enough bullshit in the day, I don't need to sit and take it from some random anon keyboard-warrior on the internet during my "relax" time.
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12-20-2014, 03:43 AMFranSearaI feel the same after a LONG day at work I just wanna chill and run a DF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilitsa
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12-20-2014, 04:53 AMAshkendor
I did a lot of my relic dungeons in a premade for these exact reasons. I don't like dealing with people's nitpicking crap. Oh no, I forgot to skip the second set of mobs in Hullbreaker Isle! It's the end of the goddamn world! YOU RUINED MY DAY BY MAKNG ME KILL THESE MANTISES! I understand that people have had to run these dungeons multiple times and are cranky, bored, and in many cases very frustrated. I get that. Don't take it out on me, though. I'm probably in the same boat you are, as are many players out in the Duty Finder right now.
I had to run Stone Vigil HM I don't know how many times. I changed roles a few times to shake things up. The runs weren't always 100% perfect, either. Go in as tank? End up with a low geared healer or DPS, end up pulling one group at a time. Go in as SCH? Get a tank that is undergeared for huge pulls but insists on doing them anyway. Go in as BLM? End up with a lower geared tank, have to seriously watch aggro management and end up tanking mobs on half the pulls anyway. You know what? I never took any of that out on the people in the party. I did everything I could to make sure that we finished and thanked them for the run at the end.
For the most part, I go with at least one other person in the party, preferably 2 or 3. Queueing with a 3 man premade is pretty ideal as we can select 5 dungeons and just go with whatever queues first to kind of keep things a little fresher than if we just spam one repeatedly. We also have a majority in the party. One memorable run through Tam-Tara HM, we had a BLM that started facepulling a few things while I was buffing the tank for big pulls. Our tank (not me, I was on SCH) asked him politely not to facepull mobs. His response? "I'm not facepulling, you're just damn slow." I sincerely hope he enjoyed the vote kick back into the solo DPS queue. I'm sorry, but that's just blatantly disrespectful. We had a good laugh over it while we waited all of 30 seconds for a replacement (who was actually an upgrade from the guy that we kicked), then finished the dungeon.
As a tank, I check people's gear at the beginning of the dungeon. I know pretty well how to gauge my pulls. Healer with base relic/zenith/atma? Alright, we're gonna have to take this slower than we're used to. That's okay, the healer can DPS too and it won't be so bad. DPS with lower gear? Same thing goes. Everyone's i110 plus? It's go time. If I solo queued, I'll ask the party if big pulls are OK. If I'm with a couple friends and we only picked up 1 person in DF, it's always big pulls as long as the other player is geared for it.
I think they're referring to AV and DD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krr
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12-20-2014, 05:19 AMFranSeara
My point is with many players being over geared for Dfs there really no reason to speed run at a break neck pace. The mobs will die, trust me. They die really fast at any speed. With everyone being so well geared now its possale to speed run WP without an tank. I did it with a Whm, Nin and a Bard (thats me) we tore up that place. I've been in groups that could speed run PS without even trying to speed run the place. We completed the Df in 14 mins. with deaths and mistakes. I think you could complete PS in under 10 mins now.
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12-20-2014, 05:20 AMHyunckelThis is why there is a lack of Tanks. Personally, I only do my Expert roulette for an easy fast Poetics + random Ancient ilv90 token to gear other jobs. I don't bother with other roulettes at all. I only play with friends now helping them in low level dungeons or for some story driven duties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilitsa
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12-20-2014, 05:25 AMLeigaonThis made me smile...mainly because now that I read that I can't stop picturing it in my head how it would look.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilitsa
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12-20-2014, 05:28 AMAshkendorThat's the thing, though. Some people find speed runs really fun. When myself and 3 friends (PLD/WHM/BLM/BLM) run together and end up doing something like AK, we push the absolute limits of what we can do with the dungeon because we are so overgeared. Try to kill the first boss before the cultist casts Void Call (he just sits there at 1% btw -.-). See how much crap the tank can pull before I have to stop, pop HG, and watch things explode. Kill the Demon Wall before it casts Repel (haven't managed this yet). Let's face it, most of us have done these dungeons hundreds of times now. Anything that makes it more fun is a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by FranSeara
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12-20-2014, 05:29 AMValmar
Most of the time I solo Que for Dungeons for my Zodiac quest, and I do speed run for the most part, but before I go off and pull 6 groups of Mobs, I look to see the level of HP every1 has, and I also ask if a speed run would be ok. If i get a bunch of no's. I run the dunegon at a normal pace.
Its not really so hard to ask, and be courteous, even if others are being rude. -
12-20-2014, 05:32 AMFranSearaThis is how it should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valmar
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12-20-2014, 05:39 AMHyunckelThis is why there is a lack of Tanks. People can't be arsed to deal with that bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilitsa
Personally I don't care, I do my expert roulette as tank for instant queue, and then switch to other classes and play the game. Duty Roulette is just a chore, not a fun time UNLESS I can go with my friends in a specific queue premade, helping them leveling up. In that case tanking is fun.
EDIT:Well I should read the forum error message instead of posting twice the same message lol. Thought I had a 1000 characters limit crap error T_T -
12-20-2014, 06:09 AMHayward
Last night on my Summoner job, I saw a rarity in Brayflox' Longstop HM: A tank who actually ran through the area without giving healers or DPS a nervous breakdown. This tank actually grabbed groups of enemies that she could handle without being an MP sponge, and even handled the Gliders as smartly as I've seen any tank do so. If there were such a thing as a Favorites list for DF tanks, she'd be on it.
As a tank, I rarely care for grabbing more than 2 groups of enemies at a time. Part of that stemmed from being at iLv90 for so long until I decided to upgrade a bunch of equipment to get to i109 for both jobs. Part of it stems from not being certain if A) the DPS can take many enemies down in short enough order and B) the healer is able to keep me upright long enough. -
12-20-2014, 06:47 AMIsius
I would have to agree with this thread. Any of the dungeons now associated with the new zodiac class weapons has become a haven to those that want nothing, but perfect runs in their minds, and anything less is just...well you are a trash of a player wasting my time, and I will make it appearant I don't like you verbally or nonverballly. This has been noticeable in the last 2 weeks. But this is nothing new honestly as others have said this has been around with all the new relic quest lines, and it won't change. But this type of attitude has always been around during the first week of the game with "HQ only gear parties/CM farms" to get philoshopy tomes, and later "Relic + HQ gear only parties" then "Relic+1 only~~~whatever parties" and it just grows, and grows, and never stops. People's hunger to get the new shiney the quickest, and fastest way possible will always be there, and it won't change.
Yes, what I stated up above is what people advertise in PF groups, but people also force this type of mentality into DF groups. They don't care if people are new or undergeared it's just rush, rush, and more rush. This only causes both sides to possibly getting sore at one another, and no one wins, and everyone that plays the game knows this is true. "Mmm...boy, new person +sol lolz." "Don't rush plz." rush anyways* "Your gear sux." "This healer/tank sux"
When I tank in DF's I always check my parties gear to see how much I can pull. If I feel like I have to make a adjustment to my pulls after the first one I will do it, and proceed at that rate THE WHOLE PARTY CAN HANDLE, not just one person. And I never really get a complaint about it. I even ask parties if they are all lvling if they want to do full dungeon runs so they can get more exp, when I am just doing it as a roulette or something for my relic questline, then just speed run it. I am even one of the guys what will queue in progress for a particular dungeon for people when someone goes anal and leaves a party.
But yeah, I have my limits, I'm human afterall on how much I can take, and just this morning a healer that decided to not heal me because I didn't skip a couple mobs, and this was just the first pull. He didn't say anything to me to skip them just stood there watching my hp pool drop as if he was teaching me a lesson this is what I get for not skipping a few mobs that he only knew/wanted to skip. I almost died if I didn't pop Hallowed Ground. I was under 10% my hp after all if this and all he did was /laugh at me, then he finally started to cast Cure 2...I turned the game off. I have better things to do then deal with people like that, and all I got to say I am sorry for the other two guys.
Frankly guys, I do not pay monthly to a GAME, a game which is something meant to be RELAXING to be ENJOYED. I do not pay monthly to deal with people's egos, or to deal with people's insecurities is it really that hard to realize everyone is different and to respect eachother for those differences? If a group wants to go faster or slower. I do it. If a guy needs a extra mob kill for his Grand Company hunts. I do it. The other 3 to 7 characters on your screen are people not NPCS, and I never call people out if they are doing badly.
But the type of person I described above is rare that are just plain rude, and will attack people over little reasons, but still it really bums me out everytime I meet one. It's just becomes more tiring to deal with every new one I meet. -
12-20-2014, 07:02 AMFranSeara
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12-20-2014, 07:05 AMAshkendorEr. I have a much easier time healing huge pulls as a scholar than as a white mage, honestly. >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by FranSeara
Lustrate being off the GCD is extremely powerful, not to mention all the damage mitigation. -
12-20-2014, 07:38 AMNumenor1379
I don't mind SRs provided the group composition is right for it. However at the same time, when Tanks push the pull as far as they can with borderline groups (this has happened WAAAAYYYYY to often to me lately) it becomes insanely stressful on me as the Healer. Then if the group wipes, any possible saving of time from pulling such huge groups is overshadowed by the lost time you now have to deal with. I'd rather have smaller pulls that are assured to not cause wipes than pushing things to where they MAY cause one.
It's even worse when the group is geared for the pull, but the DPS don't know how to use their skills properly. Had a NIN/BRD combo yesterday in DD and the BRD never once used an AoE attack... so I'm sitting there burning Divine Seal, a couple Shrouds and MP potions to keep the heals going while the idiot just Heavy Shots everything. -_____- -
12-20-2014, 08:10 AMKrrAh, yeah, that'd make sense if we're talking about Zodiacs. Those are the only ones I'd bother sacpulling (in a premade SR, mind,) over just nuking the whole room. Since, like, AK and WP mobs have jokeworthy HP now and all the hardmode dungeons have those obnoxious locked doors that make it impossible anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
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12-20-2014, 08:57 AMArkenawDid a tam tara HM speed run with an i70 scholar healing. Not a single death, so, sounds like you are just bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by FranSeara
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12-20-2014, 09:00 AMKazumac
It's a group decision, if one person's gear, skill or willingness to speed run is lacking, it just isn't going to end well. I personally think it is fun but in DF you don't know what you are going to get so pulling huge groups just to die b/c the dps can't AOE down before cool downs run out, tank doesn't rotate cool downs maximally or the healer has their head in the sand just isn't worth it time wise. So I don't insist on it or get upset if someone in the group doesn't want to do it. (As a tank I'll still chain pull group after group as long as the healer mana is good)
The other day I was berated extensively as a healer because I wouldn't help a dpser push our tank to do a speed run. The tanks gear was fine for it but it wasn't their main job and they weren't comfortable with it. It was quite funny seeing the dpser tell me how horrible I was as a healer because I was dpsing a lot of the run instead of healing exclusively (no one died but him and that's because he didn't hide on Fenrir b/c he was too busy yelling at me) I guess he really didn't want to go faster... He just wanted a speed run lol. -
12-20-2014, 09:23 AMFranSearaEeerr!! NO. I've Healed all the way up to T9 and all ex primals. I only have this problem with sorry Axx Tanks in DFs only joining for Bonus and not really knowing how to tank or how use cool downs. Mass pulling without saying anything is their mistake. Biting off more then they can handle is their mistake not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkenaw
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12-20-2014, 09:25 AMFranSearaErr!! same for you. Mas pulling without warning is the tank's fault, not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
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12-20-2014, 09:29 AMElim
lol. I see people complain about wait times because of the lack of tanks. But when a tank makes a mistake(maybe pulls a little too much or not enough), someone always seems to call him names and berates him. Very harshly. That's not the way to encourage more people to play tanks.
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12-20-2014, 09:39 AMAshkendorOkay, so you've healed up to T9. So have a lot of people. And? I've tanked all the way up to T9 and EX primals and I've also healed many of those fights. That really doesn't matter, though. As long as the Scholar is geared, there's no reason they can't heal a speed run. I would much rather heal a mass pull on SCH instead of WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by FranSeara
Erm. You're the one that flat out said "I can't heal speed runners" as a Scholar. There was no qualifier there about pulling without warning (though actually, you can recover situations like that in a lot of cases with Sprint and a few well placed Lustrates) or not using cooldowns properly. "I don't understand why they pull 18 groups of mobs with a Scholar healer" says to me that you think SCH is somehow inferior for a mass pull, which I assure you it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by FranSeara
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12-20-2014, 09:55 AMXenor
If you don't want to speed run then you'd better be an exceptional tank at keeping hate because whenever I find a tank who doesn't speed run they can never keep hate on the pulls where my Quelling Strikes isn't available. I could half ass the dungeon like the tank and watch TV and hit random buttons to avoid that but I rather play my job to its best and get through there ASAP. If only the tanks did the same.
If you don't know the most efficient speed run tactic that's fine, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you can pull two or three sets of mobs when they're on your screen ahead of you. -
12-20-2014, 10:10 AMHakuroDK
As a tank, I don't like speedrunning all that much, especially when the two DPS in the party are melee DPS that can't AoE worth a damn.
Here is my process:
-Wait for Protect/Stoneskin
-Tank one group at a time
-Hit the Ready Check at the start of each boss to make sure no one's being left behind.
-Conserve TP by using Steel Cyclone as much as possible.
In overpulls with DPS that outgear me (I'm currently i106 and I've been outaggro'd by BLMs, even when using 3 or 4 overpowers in a row at the start.), I can't do a damn thing, and all it ends up causing me is annoyance because either I use Overpower 10 times per pull and wait for my TP to regen after every single pull, or I use it 3-4 times initially and use my Butcher's Block rotation while cycling targets, and the DPS decide to attack two different targets and pull enmity from both.
And then there are those people who get annoyed when I don't pull more than one group at a time (especially healers and bards, for some reason), and they decide to run away from the party to kite the next group to me. I pick it up because I'm not a vindictive asshole, but my god that really has to stop. I'm Rouletting so that I can gear up, so if I get out-pulled by DPS who have Final Coil gear already, I don't believe that to be as much my fault when I do everything properly.
I H-A-T-E when people say it's always the tank's fault when enmity is pulled off the tank. Because tanking is not as easy as it looks. That's why most people prefer to play DPS, because only people with parsers can actually tell when a DPS is being lazy. I mean my god, when I play DPS now (usually to level my DPS jobs or to use my MNK to help out my fellow tank friends), I find myself in the habit of keeping my eyes on the enmity gauge and making absolutely sure I don't steal enmity while still putting out DPS by either switching targets or stopping all DPS until enmity is better established. -
12-20-2014, 10:52 AMElimI can heal speed runs in any dungeon perfectly as both sch and whm.Quote:
Originally Posted by FranSeara
One good example: my friend pulled every mob, including the wolves, at the start of Snow Cloak on his ilv98 tank and I healed him through it on my SCH without any issue.