The Real Problem with Zodiac (Tank Speedrun Woes)

[Purrfectstorm]

I've seen a lot of complaints about how grindy the new Zodiac quest is. I'm actually cool with that and think it's fun (for the most part). The problem as I see it is that having to run old content over and over (especially when they're overgeared) motivates people to want speedruns.

Now, generally this isn't too much of a problem. I'm an i115 tank and I know most of the dungeons pretty well. However, I've been doing most of my runs in DF not wanting to drive the rest of my FC crazy LOL. Well what I've encountered are a lot of demanding people.

One of the things I love about tanking is that the tank sets the pace of the dungeon. And one of the things I HATE about tanking is... that the tank sets the pace of the dungeon.

Many people complain that there aren't enough tanks or that tanks are bad. I think this is in part due to the demanding nature of some of these DF groups. Some want fast runs, some want slow runs. I'm personally happy somewhere in the middle. Like a 15-20 min dungeon run seems like a success to me. MAYBE we can shave off a minute or two sometimes but often at the expense of a lot of extra stress.

Besides, just because a tank knows a dungeon doesn't necessarily mean they know how to skip mobs or what might be the absolute fastest method. I got told I sucked and should not play a tank last night, for example, in what was, on the surface a pretty successful run of Pharos Sirius (no deaths, completed in 15-20 min). I'm not really sure why this was but I assume because I didn't know how to make that run a minute or two quicker.

I think this expectation for DF is way out of proportion to what the average group in DF is capable of. But the mix of expectations means that it is hard to please. Maybe you get yelled at for going too fast in one run and the next run you go faster only to get yelled at for not slowing down or because the healer is stressed by how much you pull.

TL;DR - The demanding nature of some players is why there are less tanks and why some tanks seem bad. The relic quest has greatly increased the demand for speedruns in DF. If you want a guaranteed good, fast group, remember that PF is a thing. Thanks.

[Sadana]

I wish that folks who want speed runs would just stay out of the DF. ._. But, having read many (many) threads on the subject before... they wish the same from folks who take a more laid-back approach. Would a checkbox in the DF for "Speedrun" work? ><;

eta: And please don't respond with, "then no one would run low level dungeons at regular speed", this is clearly not the case. Also, don't just say, "use the PF", since folks can't PF for low level roulette (for example).

[Renik]

That's why i stopped tanking in DF, and now most these people is complaining about the lack of tanks and the insane ques. SE is working on a way to run dungeons with a set of NPCs, i hope this helps, because the human nature will never change, you can't trust on the player-base to behave correctly.

[Ilitsa]

That's why i stopped tanking in DF, and now most these people is complaining about the lack of tanks and the insane ques. SE is working on a way to run dungeons with a set of NPCs, i hope this helps, because the human nature will never change, you can't trust on the player-base to behave correctly.

I hope they make the NPCs complain after every pull, just to poke fun at the people that like to complain

[Hiruke]

Personally, I dislike 2 things about most tanks:

1) Waiting forever to pull mobs (i.e., they aren't waiting for buffs, they are just standing around for no apparent reason)
2) Taking wild amounts of damage due to poor cooldown management, poor gear optimization, not moving out of AoEs, whatever.
3) Ok, 3 things: Not holding threat. Come on, guy. Use more Flash/Overpower.

People who hate tanks for not taking the most optimum path are a little too finicky. Personally, in DF, I'd like to see:

a) Someone not level 50? Hey, this is an xp run. Pull it all.
b) Everything level 50? Let's hurry it up, ok?

I kind of hate going into dungeons with myself being anything other than the tank, just because I hate having to deal with the nonsense that comes with most tanks. If the tank is not wasting time unnecessarily and is actually tanking, people should just get over it if the tank doesn't pull the dungeon the "absolute best way". Be happy it's not as awful as it usually is.

[Doki]

As a tank grinding away at Zodiak step, please keep in mind that the instances below level 50 will have people queuing that want XP, so speedruns where you sac pull are rude, if not agreed upon by all at the start.

[Cyrus-Wallace]

But if you find 3 people out of 4 that want to SR the dungeon, then the 4th player is the one that is off. It's the same situation, in DF there're no specific rules. And yeah, the argument of using the PF is flawed, because we can even say the same here "If you want a slow run, PF"; "If you want a SR, PF", "If you want a sac pulling run, PF", "If you want to watch CS, PF", etc. You will do whatever they want to do if they're majority. If you/they don't agree, they can kick you without being punished by the rules, because it goes against their "gameplay", as already stated. Granted, you're a tank, they are hard to find... but we're not entitled to make them do what we want. It's true that I perceive tanks as a leader, but one thing is being a leader and other thing is being a boss. You can't force people to do what you want.

On my experience, I finished my zodiac by mostly using DF, and almost EVERY run was a speedrun. No one complained. Ever. Following my own experience... Sometimes, when I see the tank is good, as a healer I pull more for him. I know I can heal through it. The DPS most of the time thank me about it. The tanks never complained. When I play tank, I ask the healer if he feels comfortable with big pulls, checking the DPS if they can manage it. If I play DPS, it's up to the tank and healer. I suggest it but I won't force them to do it.

[Purrfectstorm]

As a tank grinding away at Zodiak step, please keep in mind that the instances below level 50 will have people queuing that want XP, so speedruns where you sac pull are rude, if not agreed upon by all at the start.

I did DD and AV with my FC. AV only took 1 run and DD took 4. So luckily this wasn't an issue.

In cases like this I'd ask first and hope we could all agree. I was in an AV group for an Atma book a while ago and 3 of the 4 players were at level 50 and wanted to skip mobs and the other player wanted xp. We simply could not agree, but I would hope that majority vote works in these cases. Unfortunately, that time the under 50 player ran off and pulled mobs that nobody else was pulling making it a very miserable experience. The party disbanded and we went back to our queues (some probably waiting longer than others, like the dps who had wanted to be difficult).

It was lose-lose for all of us because we all wasted time. This seems to happen frequently with disagreeable people - they lose more time being jerks than sometimes giving way or holding their tongues. I've been on both sides of this and it's not a good experience either way.

[FranSeara]

My anti - speed runner(s) tactic is to come in at "Item Level". If the DF is 80 I come at 80. I don't want to speed run everything in this game. I understand other players may want to speed run but maybe they should just use PF for it. I was almost kicked from a HM roulette item lv 80 because the Tank and I think buddy thought I was too under geared for the DF. I was Item lv 96. I feel this new relic quest has made speed running in Dfs worse then before.
ps. I'am on the Quest, I have 2 nexus weapons, I'm not in a rush.

[Purrfectstorm]

Granted, you're a tank, they are hard to find... but we're not entitled to make them do what we want.

I agree with you 100%. But you can't ever be MADE to do better than your best. Nor should you have to "drive" faster than you are comfortable. There are speedruns where you finish a dungeon quickly (imo 15-20 min), there are speedruns where you shave off a few min (13-14 min), and then there are speedruns where you're aiming for completely unrealistic numbers. I think the first case is reasonable of a DF speedrun but probably not the other two.

In other words, it's not necessarily a case of WON'T but a case of CAN'T. When it's to my benefit to complete as fast as possible, I'm not going "slow" on purpose and I don't think a 1-2 min slower run (or any amount of minutes) justifies the abuse I've witnessed.