About Ninja Adjustment

hello. i don't feel they did this very at all. it may have SEEMED like a good compromise because the ninjutsu cost no resources. but this change to venom simply puts ninja AoE in the dirt.




i think there a few ideas here.

maybe make it so venom only applies like 5% without trait and 10% boost with the trait to ninjutsu.

OR

maybe make only one venom give a damage boost to ninjutsu. most likely not the 20% boost. but still could be 5~10%. and should still give the normal damage boost. or maybe reduce it to like 5~10% too as to keep a balance.

OR

increase Death Blossom potency by like 20 or 30.




i just wouldn't mind bringing back up the AoE damage, even by just a little.

I don't know what you're doing for aoe, but even after the nerf to the nin poisons, monk aoe is nowhere even close to nin. katon xx kassatsu, katon, death blossom spam trashmobs melt like snow in the sun.

Compared to Death Blossom, the damage from Katon and Doton is not that high and the nerf to that did barely anything for NIN AoE. If you're falling behind MNKs in AoE damage, you're not throwing enough knives.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

I don't know what you're doing for aoe, but even after the nerf to the nin poisons, monk aoe is nowhere even close to nin. katon xx kassatsu, katon, death blossom spam trashmobs melt like snow in the sun.

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Death Blossom is dirt weak. it has only 100 potency with the trait. and is only worth using with Huton up. you can anticipate the encounter to prepare Huton so you have the skill speed even after your 3second burst. but what you mention is only a very very short moment of burst damage. while it may not be as much damage as a DRG's or MNK's 20second bursting period it, it is more damage in the first 3 seconds of an encounter then either DRG or MNK can achieve. however, you also have to remember that Murda is not affected by skill speed. so there will always be a flat rate of time needed to execute this combo. and if you forget Blood for Blood... well that just sucks.

DRG has awesome 20second burst periods. Doom Spike + the 30% boost from Blood for Blood EASILY puts DRG's AoE burst period at the top. MNK has a good 10 second burst period, then 10 more seconds of bursting still with Blood for Blood. ( MNK only get 10% boost from this without the trait. ) but still MNK has to use one other action in-between. even with the Greased Lightning III, DRG is still better at burst damage. MNK can do good burst AoE, but is better at providing a consistent amount of damage over a longer period of time. however, they both still have a better bursting period then NIN.



your move combo suggestion is fine and all, but only if you expect the encounter to end quite quickly after that burst in damage. other wise you should save that Kassatsu for laying a Doton PLUS refreshing Huton. if you keep Huton up and Doton down, a NIN should be able to pull out roughly 160 potency every 3 seconds. without Huton and only using Doton + Death Blossom NIN goes down to a flat 130 Potency every 3 seconds. keep in mind that over the entire period of a Doton that is 240potency in total. Katon is 180 potency of instant damage.

i am sorry but even at 160 potency every 3 seconds, it still doesn't compare to either DRG or MNK. a DRG with Doom Spike alone is 160 potency roughly every 2.4 seconds. MNK can do 180potency roughly every 6 seconds. lemme translate the MNK damage here real quick. because while NIN can do 320potency every 6 seconds, our venom does nothing for ninjutsu. okay so on my MNK i was able to achieve around 550 damage every 6 seconds. and NIN did around 500 damage every 6 seconds. not a seemingly significant difference between sustained damage. however, MNK still has the better bursting period.



just some damage figures here...

DRG = 690 every 6seconds
MNK = 550 every 6seconds
NIN = 500 every 6seconds

lemme re-cap on something here. MNK can do 180potency of AoE damage roughly every 6 seconds. and NIN can achieve roughly 320 potency roughly every 6 second. DESPITE NIN's higher potency, MNK is still able to pull out in front. why? that nerf to the venom is the cause >_>

keep in mind these figures represent a sustained amount of damage meant to last over a longer period of time. these are not burst numbers. and the only buffs used were Heavy Thrust, Greased Lightning III and some venom on the NIN. ALSO they are geared almost exactly the same. DRG and MNK are at AIL106, NIN is AIL107, with IL110 weapons. and all slots have an item of at least IL100 or higher.


all-in-all i certainly don't feel NIN AoE should compare to a DRG. but at the very least it should compare to a MNK. both are attack speed based jobs.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Compared to Death Blossom, the damage from Katon and Doton is not that high and the nerf to that did barely anything for NIN AoE. If you're falling behind MNKs in AoE damage, you're not throwing enough knives.

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according to the findings above... before the nerf, NIN may very well have had higher sustained AoE damage then MNK. and again, both are attack speed based jobs. so even that shouldn't happen.






conclusion? aside from that 3second burst that was mentioned, NIN really doesn't have much going for it in terms of AoE. what can i suggest? i dunno... easiest thing i can think of is to slightly increase Death Blossom potency. 20 or 30 more potency shouldn't hurt. however, i don't know how potency directly translates into damage.

I don't want to question your math, i guess it's all correct and respect the time you put into it. I personally assume that a trashmob will barely live any longer than 10 seconds though, so the 3 second nin burst from katon xx kassatsu, katon (crit) is weighted pretty high. That's also the reason I didn't even mention doton for nin aoe, because it's a dps loss if mobs die fast. I also assume that i handle my ninjutsu cooldowns in a way that huton is up at all times, because that's what i do.

Out of interest, where do you take the monk 'burst' from? Do you mean pb + rock breaker spam x5?

Also a note to point out Doom spike is straight Line only not pure aoe, idk about you but most times mobs are clusterfucked around the tank not an easy straight line so most DRGS go for the Heavy Thrust Ring of thorns combo on trash.

Quit Nin, you're bringing shame to the job.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

I don't want to question your math, i guess it's all correct and respect the time you put into it. I personally assume that a trashmob will barely live any longer than 10 seconds though, so the 3 second nin burst from katon xx kassatsu, katon (crit) is weighted pretty high. That's also the reason I didn't even mention doton for nin aoe, because it's a dps loss if mobs die fast. I also assume that i handle my ninjutsu cooldowns in a way that huton is up at all times, because that's what i do.

Out of interest, where do you take the monk 'burst' from? Do you mean pb + rock breaker spam x5?

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i completely understand. but that is also situational. many large pulls, in my experiences, lasts for at least 30 seconds. however, since the lift on item-level sync i have seen some serious damage out there. have even seen a player literally one hit K.O. something before. probably a DRG finishing a Full Thrust combo with a critical. it was a melee player that much i remember.

and yeah Blood for Blood + Perfect Balance with already having Greased Lightning III allows MNK a rather nice period of burst AoE damage. and while Rock Breaker is only 130 potency, MNK attack speed is pretty good. i haven't done the testing, but i imagine during those first 10seconds a MNK should be close to DRG.

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Originally Posted by Raucent

Also a note to point out Doom spike is straight Line only not pure aoe, idk about you but most times mobs are clusterfucked around the tank not an easy straight line so most DRGS go for the Heavy Thrust Ring of thorns combo on trash.

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yeah. it can get difficult to use Doom Spike at times. i just always try to select the furthest enemy in a mob. it usually does well. and only rarely passes over like 1 or 2 enemies. but it is so worth using over that other combo during Blood for Blood. also Doom Spike is pretty good when you need to stand further away from the enemy, or escape an AoE.

also with Ring of Thorns you have a couple of options. you can either waste Blood for Blood time by trying to combo in to it with Heavy Thrust. and potentially waste even more time by not hitting your directional. or you can waste Blood for Blood entirely by spamming only Ring of Thorns without the combo. but i guess it could still be decent damage. to each their own.

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Quit Nin, you're bringing shame to the job.

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i am sorry if you didn't feel like reading through my previous wall of text. so i will just say this... the numbers don't lie.

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

the numbers don't lie.

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Like these?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Huton-Duration

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

i completely understand. but that is also situational. many large pulls, in my experiences, lasts for at least 30 seconds. however, since the lift on item-level sync i have seen some serious damage out there. have even seen a player literally one hit K.O. something before. probably a DRG finishing a Full Thrust combo with a critical. it was a melee player that much i remember.

and yeah Blood for Blood + Perfect Balance with already having Greased Lightning III allows MNK a rather nice period of burst AoE damage. and while Rock Breaker is only 130 potency, MNK attack speed is pretty good. i haven't done the testing, but i imagine during those first 10seconds a MNK should be close to DRG.

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What I'm about to say pertains only to monk, and not your issues with the ninja changes.

While PB Rock Breaker spam is nice for the duration you need to remember that PB is a 3 minute cooldown, and you won't be able to use it much at all in a dungeon. Also you're mentioning monk with GL3 doing PB+BfB Rock Breaker spam. It takes over 20 seconds to get GL3 up without PB to get there in the first place so holding PB until after you get GL3 usually will mean that a lot of trash on a big pull will be dead or close to dead already. Monk AoE is extremely weak because of setup time, and by the time you're ready to get that ideal Rock Breaker spam going with all your buffs up (IR+BfB+GL3) a lot of mobs will be low on health already from other classes that don't need that kind of setup time for their AoE. Monk AoE isn't very good at all outside using it with a 3 minute cooldown and totally wrecking our TP pool, and quite frankly that's fine given how good our single target damage is.

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Like these?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Huton-Duration

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cool story... i made a mistake and didn't argue it. when you play every single combat class/job, constantly reading every tool-tip before going to do something would get tedious. unless you are unsure of the action. it was an honest mistake with no math behind it. but here is different. you can go in-game for your self and test it.

okay i will make it more fair and take everything off, except for weapon and soul crystal...

Job/Damage/Time(seconds)
DRG = 322 / 4.92
MNK = 255 / 6.36
NIN = 245 / 6.36

DRG = 1337 / 20
MNK = 1009 / 20
NIN = 821 / 20


on average the MNK was able to sustain a higher amount of AoE damage. i repeated the test several times. sometimes NIN had a slightly higher number during the shorter test. but almost every test showed MNK being higher. also note i am not counting the single target action on MNK in the damage shown.


P.S. that final 20 second result for DRG is good one. lol :P

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

What I'm about to say pertains only to monk, and not your issues with the ninja changes.

While PB Rock Breaker spam is nice for the duration you need to remember that PB is a 3 minute cooldown, and you won't be able to use it much at all in a dungeon. Also you're mentioning monk with GL3 doing PB+BfB Rock Breaker spam. It takes over 20 seconds to get GL3 up without PB to get there in the first place so holding PB until after you get GL3 usually will mean that a lot of trash on a big pull will be dead or close to dead already. Monk AoE is extremely weak because of setup time, and by the time you're ready to get that ideal Rock Breaker spam going with all your buffs up (IR+BfB+GL3) a lot of mobs will be low on health already from other classes that don't need that kind of setup time for their AoE. Monk AoE isn't very good at all outside using it with a 3 minute cooldown and totally wrecking our TP pool, and quite frankly that's fine given how good our single target damage is.

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hm. i see i see said the blind mouse. you make very good points. and i appreciate the advice. but would like to add on that it seems to be situational on which way it would be done. it took me 20.61 seconds to GL3. but also during this time you still doing AoE damage. so it's not so bad. and if you are certain the mob will last for at least 10 more seconds, then PB would be pretty good. but i wouldn't save Blood for Blood under that situation. chances are it will be half wasted. better to use it right away.

but yeah, if you know the mob will just die so quickly, may as well go for PB right at the start.

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

hm. i see i see said the blind mouse. you make very good points. and i appreciate the advice. but would like to add on that it seems to be situational on which way it would be done. it took me 20.61 seconds to GL3. but also during this time you still doing AoE damage. so it's not so bad. and if you are certain the mob will last for at least 10 more seconds, then PB would be pretty good. but i wouldn't save Blood for Blood under that situation. chances are it will be half wasted. better to use it right away.

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What I was getting it is if you're going to PB Rock Breaker spam, I'd just get 1 stack of GL and then hit it. However, keep in mind Rock Breaker costs 120 TP, and if you have enough mobs to make Arm of the Destroyer worth it that costs 130 TP. You can't keep that up for long. Depending on the length of the fight sometimes you only have the resources for one pull, and then you're potentially totally spent on the next pull. Other times you're good for two pulls going all out like that. If you ask the tank to hold between pulls then you're totally wasting the entire point of doing big pulls. Except for some circumstances I'd say you're also better off holding PB for the boss where a monk's true damage really shines, and just stick to using Rock Breaker as a finisher for normal combos so you can pace your TP. Nothing is going to slow the group down more than a melee waiting on TP to recharge, and this is a problem that a lot of tanks don't seem to get.

Monk AoE is expensive, and not very good outside of a very short duration. You can't keep it going, and here in lies the difference between monk and ninja AoE. Yes, there's a time cost for your ninjutsu, but if you exclude Death Blossom which will be your TP dump equivalent you can maintain some AoE damage pull after pull. Blowing all your TP in a dungeon is a very real issue, and one that shouldn't be overlooked.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

What I was getting it is if you're going to PB Rock Breaker spam, I'd just get 1 stack of GL and then hit it. However, keep in mind Rock Breaker costs 120 TP, and if you have enough mobs to make Arm of the Destroyer worth it that costs 130 TP. You can't keep that up for long. Depending on the length of the fight sometimes you only have the resources for one pull, and then you're potentially totally spent on the next pull. Other times you're good for two pulls going all out like that. If you ask the tank to hold between pulls then you're totally wasting the entire point of doing big pulls. Except for some circumstances I'd say you're also better off holding PB for the boss where a monk's true damage really shines, and just stick to using Rock Breaker as a finisher for normal combos so you can pace your TP. Nothing is going to slow the group down more than a melee waiting on TP to recharge, and this is a problem that a lot of tanks don't seem to get.

Monk AoE is expensive, and not very good outside of a very short duration. You can't keep it going, and here in lies the difference between monk and ninja AoE. Yes, there's a time cost for your ninjutsu, but if you exclude Death Blossom which will be your TP dump equivalent you can maintain some AoE damage pull after pull. Blowing all your TP in a dungeon is a very real issue, and one that shouldn't be overlooked.

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see this is what i like. people who actually try to help. because of you i may even be a slightly better MNK now. ^_^ but on a side note, i always just spam for the 20second period on Blood for Blood. then there is invigorate. after popping invigorate i take it easy. even if some B4B is still running. allowing just a little time in between actions.

i don't know about most people... but what i consider spamming is executing the action before the clock animation finishes. and before the icon flashes. the icon should flash immediately as the clock animation finishes. however, the icon doesn't always seem to flash. but i usually allow at least like a half second in-between each action after bursting. if TP is really tight, then a whole second. and with this i almost never have TP issues. and if my TP is still regenerating on the next pull, then i wait a few second before engaging. just IMO, but there is not much point in using your actions as fast as possible after your burst period. but i've always been a conservative person at anything.

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

i don't know about most people... but what i consider spamming is executing the action before the clock animation finishes. and before the icon flashes. the icon should flash immediately as the clock animation finishes. however, the icon doesn't always seem to flash. but i usually allow at least like a half second in-between each action after bursting. if TP is really tight, then a whole second. and with this i almost never have TP issues. and if my TP is still regenerating on the next pull, then i wait a few second before engaging. just IMO, but there is not much point in using your actions as fast as possible after your burst period. but i've always been a conservative person at anything.

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You're only talking about trash pulls in dungeons here, right?

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

You're only talking about trash pulls in dungeons here, right?

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yeah. medium/large trash pulls in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Quit Nin, you're bringing shame to the job.

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LMAO!! Get EM!

I feel like you aren't taking something pretty big into consideration: Perfect Balance isn't up all the time. Furthermore, you would pretty much never use PB in a real fight just to AoE down adds. Don't assume a Monk is going to sacrifice his ability to get GL3 back up quickly to AoE when a BLM could do the job instead.

What i dont understand is why does it matter? Do Black Mages need a nerf because they can aoe better than Ninja? Keep the stupid aoe crap, i would rather shred a boss than to be exactly even with everyone else. Dont start with the Ninja cant shred a boss or single target, i waste monks and drgs even after the nerf/buff. Quit Focusing on making every class the same, and focus on what sets us apart, else we end up like WoW and things get boring real fast. You cannot aoe as good as some one else than let them aoe and tear the mobs apart one by one before they can hit their 10s mrk and magicly aoe numbers will go down >.>

Question is do you buff before using death blossom?
Just curious as that would be a difference there.
Ninja aoe has never been all that strong to begin with but is still far better then monks and is sort of on par with dragoon, with dragoon maybe slightly ahead. I think it is fine were it's at for aoe, i mean you want real aoe just go as or bring a blm.

First of all Monk has the worst AOE ever. If for example im in a raid with boss i will start by using PB which will leaves it on CD. If i were to do AOE. It'll be Arms of destroyer > Twin snakes > Rockbreaker Total 310 tp used with 180 pot on AOE 100-140 pot on single target because of twin snakes with no GL stacks. It'll take 2.43 x3 with my current non gl stack SS. While NIN can do 300 pot in 2.09GCD x3 that cost 360 TP with my current NIN ss with huton. Not to forget that rockbreaker is in a cone not around you. Also, on the with no GL stacks. Mnks Arm of destoryer benefits from only 5% dmg buff from fist of fire. then 15% for rock breaker with twinsnakes added with fire fist while NIN has 20% dmg from kisses and Huton.

If you were to talk about PB rocker breaker spam U have to at least get a twinsnakes up then do rock breaker spam and that'll waste a 2.41 sec on PB leaving you about 3-4 rocker breaker to do due to PB having 10 sec and GL stacks goes from 2.43 > 2.31 > 2.06 which gives u about only 4 rockbreaker which is 520 pot. while NIN can do 5 death blossom which is 500 pot to aoe in 10 secs or lets say thats 20 pot lower than monk. But if you are considering of using PB i will consider using Kassatsu too. So if it takes away one death blossom which is 400pot kassatsu makes katon crit and katon sits on a 180pot which is 400 + 180pot with crit (im not sure about crit multiplier, was it 1.5x?). This number already over take Monks 4 rock breaker with pb. Also u should consider NIN can do death blossom to the end of Tp but PB only last 10secs.

So if you say whose AOE is stronger i would still say NINJA.

PS. sorry for bad ENG, if there's anything i calculated wrongly feel free to correct me

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Originally Posted by Blueskyy

First of all Monk has the worst AOE ever. If for example im in a raid with boss i will start by using PB which will leaves it on CD. If i were to do AOE. It'll be Arms of destroyer > Twin snakes > Rockbreaker Total 310 tp used with 180 pot on AOE 100-140 pot on single target because of twin snakes with no GL stacks. It'll take 2.43 x3 with my current non gl stack SS. While NIN can do 300 pot in 2.09GCD x3 that cost 360 TP with my current NIN ss with huton. Not to forget that rockbreaker is in a cone not around you. Also, on the with no GL stacks. Mnks Arm of destoryer benefits from only 5% dmg buff from fist of fire. then 15% for rock breaker with twinsnakes added with fire fist while NIN has 20% dmg from kisses and Huton.

If you were to talk about PB rocker breaker spam U have to at least get a twinsnakes up then do rock breaker spam and that'll waste a 2.41 sec on PB leaving you about 3-4 rocker breaker to do due to PB having 10 sec and GL stacks goes from 2.43 > 2.31 > 2.06 which gives u about only 4 rockbreaker which is 520 pot. while NIN can do 5 death blossom which is 500 pot to aoe in 10 secs or lets say thats 20 pot lower than monk. But if you are considering of using PB i will consider using Kassatsu too. So if it takes away one death blossom which is 400pot kassatsu makes katon crit and katon sits on a 180pot which is 400 + 180pot with crit (im not sure about crit multiplier, was it 1.5x?). This number already over take Monks 4 rock breaker with pb. Also u should consider NIN can do death blossom to the end of Tp but PB only last 10secs.

So if you say whose AOE is stronger i would still say NINJA.

PS. sorry for bad ENG, if there's anything i calculated wrongly feel free to correct me

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where are you getting your numbers? this is all kinds of wrong. at first i thought with the first bolded area someone using doton, but the time you put there doesnt add up, so i can only think that in that time frame its katon and death blossom. death blossom is 100 pot flat. katon is 180 pot, like you said. where then, did that 400 pot come from?

What is the largest pull that can be done in a dungeon and how long does it take to AoE it down?

You like to complain about NIN, and ask for buffs a lot.

I'm not sure if its just you being bad at the job, or if the job actually needs biffs (I haven't used it) but from what I've seen most NIN do really well.

Besides, why do NIN need to have better AoE? I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by dragonczarxi

What i dont understand is why does it matter? Do Black Mages need a nerf because they can aoe better than Ninja? Keep the stupid aoe crap, i would rather shred a boss than to be exactly even with everyone else. Dont start with the Ninja cant shred a boss or single target, i waste monks and drgs even after the nerf/buff. Quit Focusing on making every class the same, and focus on what sets us apart, else we end up like WoW and things get boring real fast. You cannot aoe as good as some one else than let them aoe and tear the mobs apart one by one before they can hit their 10s mrk and magicly aoe numbers will go down >.>

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U waste bad ones

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

when you play every single combat class/job, constantly reading every tool-tip before going to do something would get tedious. unless you are unsure of the action.

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You were unsure of the action. You got the numbers outright wrong. You don't need to "constantly read them." You need to learn them. Once.

If you're trying to change the game and do some theorycrafting, don't throw out the numbers without showing the math, what targets you've been using, gear levels, rotations... I get that you're new to this but what do you think is going to happen when someone that's been doing it for over a decade comes along and asks these very questions?

The excuse of "I don't want to read all the tooltips" just means I can't take the rest of the thread seriously. It screams to me that you're inexperienced with the ninja class so shouldn't be trying to change anything but your own skill.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

U waste bad ones

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Not really, Ninja still can do more damage then most dragoons
Monk well yeah, those that really know the class well can for sure do way more damage

also some of you why so much fuss over aoe? Like i said earlier you want/need real aoe just bring a blm, lol

This subject is a little bit unnecessary I think. aoe damage for melee classes doesn't matter very much because there are almost no end game raiding scenarios (coils i mean) where draining all of your TP is a viable solution.

Furthermore, it is really, REALLY important that all classes are able to bring something different to the table. Sure, ninja and monk aoe dps is on the lower side for melee, but they both bring 2x the raid utility of a dragoon anyways. What is important is that every class has the ability to fit a role and is important to end game scenarios. Hell, monk is the premier melee dps in final coil because their 10% int debuff is so amazing. Ninja is next because Goad is a massive dps increase for the close to mandatory monk in your group.

Anyways, don't spend too much time focusing on little things like melee AoE numbers. The TP cost alone means that melee AoE is pretty close to unusable anyways.

Asked a nin who was 1v1ing a 10+ dungeon pull to goad my dragoon and he said (infuriate)(do you have it?)


Ninja aoe stronk.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

where are you getting your numbers? this is all kinds of wrong. at first i thought with the first bolded area someone using doton, but the time you put there doesnt add up, so i can only think that in that time frame its katon and death blossom. death blossom is 100 pot flat. katon is 180 pot, like you said. where then, did that 400 pot come from?

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Like I said if I used 4 death blossom instead of 5, to use my katon. It'll be 400pot won't it?

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

This subject is a little bit unnecessary I think. aoe damage for melee classes doesn't matter very much because there are almost no end game raiding scenarios (coils i mean) where draining all of your TP is a viable solution.

Furthermore, it is really, REALLY important that all classes are able to bring something different to the table. Sure, ninja and monk aoe dps is on the lower side for melee, but they both bring 2x the raid utility of a dragoon anyways. What is important is that every class has the ability to fit a role and is important to end game scenarios. Hell, monk is the premier melee dps in final coil because their 10% int debuff is so amazing. Ninja is next because Goad is a massive dps increase for the close to mandatory monk in your group.

Anyways, don't spend too much time focusing on little things like melee AoE numbers. The TP cost alone means that melee AoE is pretty close to unusable anyways.

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Give this guy a thumps up.