Removing mudra GCDs

If mudra GCDs were removed and implemented 15-20s mudra CDs and a 0.5s animation, majority of the latency problems with ninjutsu would be nonexistent. The system would be the exact same as what we currently have in place minus the ability to double up mudras.

Why do people double up mudras?

Latency. None of the ninjutsu require two of the same mudra, so it's not commonplace to double up on a mudra unless the user mis-clicks. A mis-click is capable of happening with any skill so the threat of messing a mudra up is still available.

Would regular CDs simplify the system? Yes and no, sure it would decrease the chance of screwing up a ninjutsu, but your rotation remains the exact same as it is now regardless. As it stands now, even at 50 ms, there is still heavy delay in some instances, and with that comes the inability to maxiimize DPS like I can with any other class under the same circumstances. Something needs to change since they claim the delay is something they are unable to fix from a server standpoint.

They implemented the .5 second delay to reduce people from just spamming it and to reduce macros for it.

I don't know if it is possible for them to make the mudra GCD a clientside thing instead of a serverside that gets crippled by connectivity.
What Chuloon said, they must keep some kind of CD so mudra stay not macroable, otherwise they could remove the system at all, cause everyone and their mum would make 1 button mudra macros.

Someone else suggested this weeks ago;

Why not make the mudra combination client-side, and only send the packet to the server once you actually hit Ninjutsu? That way, there's no lag between the mudras and no way of the user getting screwed over by the server if they did their combination right.

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Originally Posted by Chuloon

They implemented the .5 second delay to reduce people from just spamming it and to reduce macros for it.

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The minimum wait time for macros is 1s so a ninjutsu/mudra macro will operate at the same speed regardless. GCDs were made 0.5s so that a manual user would perform at a higher level than a macro-user.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The minimum wait time for macros is 1s so a ninjutsu/mudra macro will operate at the same speed regardless. GCDs were made 0.5s so that a manual user would perform at a higher level than a macro-user.

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I'm not talking about that kind of macro. I'm talking about 3rd party macros like the ones on keyboards and such.

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Originally Posted by Chuloon

I'm not talking about that kind of macro. I'm talking about 3rd party macros like the ones on keyboards and such.

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So mudra delay should never be fixed because people may macro them via 3rd party?

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

So mudra delay should never be fixed because people may macro them via 3rd party?

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I'm saying it's what separates the mediocre NIN from the good ones. Any dumb-dumb can memorize a 3 skill sequence and spam them at any rate they wish--a player with skill will adapt to how the system is and maximize their potential.

Do I think it would be a QoL improvement to stabilize lag so it's easier to get Mudras off? Absolutely I do, but that's not really within SE's control. That being said, using Mudras are supposed to be part of the skillset as NIN, and knowing the delay on them is a huge part of mastering that skillset. So yeah, in conclusion, I think removing the GCD from Mudra would be a handicap instead of a QoL improvement.

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Originally Posted by Chuloon

I'm saying it's what separates the mediocre NIN from the good ones. Any dumb-dumb can memorize a 3 skill sequence and spam them at any rate they wish--a player with skill will adapt to how the system is and maximize their potential.

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Problem being there's little you can do to adapt to lag other than slowing yourself/rotation down. That isn't maximizing your potential at all. With a 0.5s animation as suggested, mudra-use will be the exact same feel as we currently have minus delay. While I agree with some of the sentiments of your posts, I can't see how the current system is much different than the one I've suggested other than not being able to double down on mudras.

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Originally Posted by Chuloon

I'm saying it's what separates the mediocre NIN from the good ones. Any dumb-dumb can memorize a 3 skill sequence and spam them at any rate they wish--a player with skill will adapt to how the system is and maximize their potential.

Do I think it would be a QoL improvement to stabilize lag so it's easier to get Mudras off? Absolutely I do, but that's not really within SE's control. That being said, using Mudras are supposed to be part of the skillset as NIN, and knowing the delay on them is a huge part of mastering that skillset. So yeah, in conclusion, I think removing the GCD from Mudra would be a handicap instead of a QoL improvement.

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You lost all credibility when you said this. There is legit server sided mudra lag depending on your location and how many people are in the area with you. If I go to my FC house and do my mudras they are smooth. In some instances they are HORRID 3+ second huton/suitons, and this is all out of my control. Theoretically, all that should take is 1.5 seconds for the mudras + the animation and be done with it, but that is not how it is playing out. The problem is, if SE can not fix the current system, they need to think of a way to get a new one in, because the current one is not working for everyone. Even people with good net complain about it. It is really based on how the server feels at the time of your inputs.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

You lost all credibility when you said this.

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Lost credibility? We're literally saying the same thing. If you read even a little of what I wrote, you'd know I think it would be "a QoL improvement to stabilize lag so it's easier to get Mudras off." The argument is whether the GCD should be removed and a client-side solution is the best fix for that, which I don't believe it is. My argument is that having a GCD on the Mudras is important to show skill in your class--in no way am I suggesting I support laggy servers and skills that go off. READ THIS

The whole networking side of the game became questionable the instant SE decided to make such a heavily server-driven game where the datacenters were nowhere near the majority of the player base. I mean, I'm sure it works great for Japan. It'd be like if every western player lived in Montana, and the server was in... Montana. For people in the U.S., it's not even in the same country. Like, we couldn't even get datacenters for each side of the U.S.? And then they make the game very much about movement and getting out of things in time, and wonder why people outside of Japan have trouble with it due to latency and such.

And this is after rebuilding the game from the ground up. Maybe a second total rework of the code is needed? Or maybe they should use that cash shop money to not only make an EU datacenter, but to add more NA datacenters, as well. My packets have to travel at least 3x as far as anyone in Japan, and that's if the Japanese datacenter is at the dead center of the country and the Japanese player in question lived almost in the ocean at the farthest tip. In reality my packets probably need to travel 4x to 8x further than anyone who is actually playing the game in Japan. So, thanks, SE. I can't imagine why there might be lag. Why don't you fly your dev team out to the U.S. and then you can troubleshoot how garbage your servers are from there, because I think you'll have a much easier time reproducing the issues.

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Originally Posted by Chuloon

Lost credibility? We're literally saying the same thing. If you read even a little of what I wrote, you'd know I think it would be "a QoL improvement to stabilize lag so it's easier to get Mudras off." The argument is whether the GCD should be removed and a client-side solution is the best fix for that, which I don't believe it is. My argument is that having a GCD on the Mudras is important to show skill in your class--in no way am I suggesting I support laggy servers and skills that go off. READ THIS

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You're saying mostly the same thing. You add in the small caveat of "they shouldn't change the system to make thing better for people because that would make it easy for noobs" whereas the other poster doesn't. The problem is, SE themselves has said this may not be something they can fix due to varying internet shenanigans with servers and such.

The point of the original post is, if they can't fix it to work correctly for everyone (not just Japan), then the whole thing should be revisited to try and find a solution. Yes, even if it means "knowing the delay on them and working with it" is not longer a "part of the skillset" and potentially less skilled players can perform nearly as well as the more skilled ones when it comes to Mudras. Oh no.

Ever since switching to NIN as my main I've had to use Pingzapper to ensure my Mudra usage comes out mostly correct. Having to pay for additional software because SE made a solution that only works for a small portion of its customers is not good.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

You're saying mostly the same thing.

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Yes, I realize that. What I'm trying to say is that, and I'll emphasize it so everyone sees it, while I don't support a laggy system as part of the NIN skill set, I don't think removing GCD completely is the fix NIN should get for the issue of laggy Mudras. Does that make sense? I believe a fix should be made as "a QoL improvement to stabilize lag so it's easier to get Mudras off," but making the mudra system so easy it's dummy proof isn't the answer. That's the only thing I've been trying to say. I'm just trying to find a better solution than the one the OP suggested.

Am I seriously the only player on these forums that thinks skillful play should be rewarded more than just rolling your face over your keyboard? NIN was designed to have a high skill ceiling to pull high damage numbers. I don't think it's unreasonable for some difficulties included in the class to let you reach those huge numbers--in this case, a static GCD.

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Originally Posted by Chuloon

stuff

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GCD incorporation isn't the only way to create some sort of delay when using mudras. For the second time, incorprating a 0.5 second animation for mudras is exactly the same system we currently have. If I were to queue up 3 0.5 second animation OFF GCD skills consecutively with little latency, it would take around 1.5 seconds to complete them all. Exactly the same as what we currently have with mudras. The only difference beside the obvious delay that comes with having split second duration GCDs is that you won't be able to double up on mudras. But there's no incorporation of 2 of the same mudra in a single ninjutsu so the only reason anyone would double up mudra these days is latency.

It doesn't make the system easier, there's no "spamming skills" that come with it. It is literally the exact same system we have in place.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The minimum wait time for macros is 1s so a ninjutsu/mudra macro will operate at the same speed regardless. GCDs were made 0.5s so that a manual user would perform at a higher level than a macro-user.

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That moment when you realize you can make a macro with 0.5s wait times, I know because I do it.

/point
/wait 0.5
/laugh

Works everytime :D

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Originally Posted by monochromicorn

That moment when you realize you can make a macro with 0.5s wait times, I know because I do it.

/point
/wait 0.5
/laugh

Works everytime :D

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You could input /wait .0000001, the game would still interpret it as 1s. It is doable with AHK or other 3rd party programs though.

Please make sure your camera is zoomed out all the way.

But yes the mudra lag in coil is horrible sometimes I hit the mudra and it does even go off and I'm setting there waiting and hit the key again then it double ups. Outside it runs smooth like it should.

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Originally Posted by monochromicorn

That moment when you realize you can make a macro with 0.5s wait times, I know because I do it.

/point
/wait 0.5
/laugh

Works everytime :D

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Put 10 of those 0.5s in a row, and see if the time between your point and laugh is 5 seconds long.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

You could input /wait .0000001, the game would still interpret it as 1s.

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I don't think the game would accept the syntax of it, I think wait fails if you have more than one decimal place. It's been a while, so I could be wrong.