1.0 instanced dungeons in ARR, no hard modes = suspicious...

I've been wondering about this since before patch 2.3 with Stone Vigil and Tam Tara having been announced as having hard modes, when I learn't that none of the 1.0 dungeons that are in game had hard mode versions announced... Then came 2.4, still none and now 2.5 will have Amdapor Keep and Wanderers Palace receiving hard modes... Is it just me or does this seem suspicious to others?

Recap:
Here is a list of all 4 player instanced dungeons which were introduced co0me ARR...

1) Sastasha
2) Tam-Tara Deepcroft
3) Copperbell Mines
4) Halatali
5) Haukke Manor
6) Brayflox's Longstop
7) Sunken Temple of Qarn
8) Stone Vigil
9) The Wanderer's Palace
10) Amdapor Keep
11) Pharos Sirius
12) The Lost City of Amdapor
13) Hullbreaker Isle
14) Snowcloak
15) The Keeper of The Lake

Now for the list of Dungeons from 1.0
1) The Thousand Maws of Toto-rak
2) Dzemael Darkhold
3) Cutters Cry
4) Aurum Vale

Let's have a look at the hard mode version list...

1) Copperbell Mines
2) Haukke Manor
3) Brayflox's Longstop
4) Halatali
5) Stone Vigil
6) Tam-Tara Deepcroft
7) Sastasha
8) Sunken Temple of Qarn
9) The Wanderer's Palace
10) Amdapor Keep

Wait a sec... All ten hard mode dungeons have new-for-ARR normal counterparts which were released on launch... This leaves us with four leftovers (And the five new ones, which we'll leave out for now)... Which happen to be all four of the original 1.0 dungeons.

I could be reading too much into this and it could just be a design choice to have little to do with the old or such but it has been something which has been eating at me for a while now.

I don't even think you need to leave the five new ones off the list to keep the conspiracy theory going.

Pharos Sirius, The Lost City of Amdapor, and Snowcloak each feature a being known to Final Fantasy as a summon, but not one chosen to be a primal in FFXIV. A "lesser summon," if you will. In FFXI, the six elemental primals we've been introduced to were also known as the sleeping gods and were contained in their own group. Outside of this group were the rest - just like in FFXIV. So far, we've got Diabolos, Fenrir, and Siren. My guess is that these dungeons served as introductions to figures we'll see again. Or, in the words of Koji Fox: "Did you really defeat them? Did youuu?"

That's 3/5 explained away right there. Hullbreaker concludes a series of namedrops about Mistbeard's legacy reaching all the way back to 1.0, and I'm guessing the Keeper of the Lake will do something very similar - maybe it'll even contain yet another "lesser summon," the same way Snowcloak did despite being primarily framed around Shiva. And that's 5/5, leaving you only with the four 1.0 dungeons left out.

BUUUUUUT....

Maybe they don't get hard modes because they already did. Those dungeons were no joke in their day. No sense giving them a third incarnation when you can give the others some airtime? Especially considering the new dungeons' resources were all built specifically for this version of the game and may be more versatile on the back-end (I have no idea). Also, there's just not much more you can do with them, unless you try to shoehorn it in there. A lot of their lore came and went with 1.0, and Eorzea hasn't really made any designs or progress on them since then.

The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak has been returned to the forest and should have remained sealed. It still festers with negativity and rage. We only went in there because had to, once because the Garleans were mucking with the aether (1.0), and once to save Frixio, who got trapped inside. Gridania doesn't even have enough interest in it to clear out the magitek Darnus' men left behind five years ago. I doubt they'll ever even think about the place again (unless they send a Hearer out to re-re-return it to the forest and seal it back up, proper).

Ditto the Dzemael Darkhold, on the magitek point. Ever since we chased the Garleans out of there, Ishgard's been too busy to do anything with it. I wouldn't be surprised if this infestation thing happens again, either, but that'd still be the same story - preoccupied House Dzemael lets unfinished keep with thin realm-membranes fill with Voidsent, again.

Ditto Cutter's Cry, on the same story point. Ants and a chimera before, and as soon as we clear it out, more ants and even another Chimera, though this new one's kind of a pup. I bet it's already full of ants again. And maybe even another Chimera. Maybe a bunch of them. Thanks, Allagan Bioweapons Lab. The only reason we went there anyway was to keep the bitchin' lore about the Darklight Raiders, though Sibold seems to have forgotten the entire thing, as he offers the exact same quest he used to, down to believing that the old Chimera is still there. That part's always gotten to me. Did we not tell him? Does he have Alzheimers? Obviously we cleared it out and reclaimed his friends' remains. That's how Rowena got their armor to (allegedly) start mass-producing (accurate, quality) forgeries.

Speaking of we-only-went-there-fors and SE-kept-it-becauses, the only reason we went to the Aurum Vale is because Ned thought it was a cool idea. It's been an inhospitable pit of tainted forest creatures and cyclops that nobody wants to visit for like, ever. Even moreso now that a bunch of 'em ran in there to escape the now-frigid Coerthan landscape. We went in once on the hunt for Darnus' men and we went in once for fun, and, yeah, it's gorgeous and totally deserved an ARR incarnation, but nothing's changed about the place in ages, and we're better than that now.

You can make the case for the pattern being suspicious or sensible.

Is it a matter of conspiracy? Or priority? You decide.

inb4, years from now, resource recycling becomes necessary and we're forced to go back to Cutter's Cry and the quest dialogue is mostly just an Ul'dahn noble going, "Because f*ck ants, that's why!" while Sibold tries to recruit you to kill the chimera and avenge his fallen friends, again.

I read on Reddit (or was it one of the design presentations from London fanfest?) that the old 1.0 dungeons where built without the plans to add Hard Modes, while the 2.0 dungeons where designed from the ground up with future HM's in mind. Assuming that's true (and I seem to recall a quote linked) the reason they don't have HM's is simply because the development resources where never there.

I can see them adding a Darkhold HM in 3.0 as an "introductory" dungeon, cause Dzemael is a Ishgardian House.

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Originally Posted by MaethusXion

I can see them adding a Darkhold HM in 3.0 as an "introductory" dungeon, cause Dzemael is a Ishgardian House.

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I've always had this quiet fantasy that, someday, the Darkhold would become an open-world cave zone that was entry-gated to completing certain 3.0 content. Ishgard will have reclaimed and completed chunks of the interior, finally succeeding in linking several areas of the Coerthas region together via the cave system and creating camps within. Adventurers could come in via different zones (Central Highlands, Western Highlands, etc.) and either do content at the inner camps, or help clear the "more cave than keep" areas of mobs that have wandered in (or broken in from the Void). Hell, the FATEs write themselves and you could even build it up over time like Revenant's Toll if you wanted to. There's a depressing, almost nonsensical lack of open-world cave zones in this game and its always made me sad.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

There's a depressing, almost nonsensical lack of open-world cave zones in this game and its always made me sad.

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This. I miss the old sastasha so much... /singletear

Aurum Vale Hard Mode...the very thought makes most players shiver. All they'd have to do is bring back the original from 1.0 and make it a 4 man. That place was a bleedin NIGHTMARE.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I've always had this quiet fantasy that, someday, the Darkhold would become an open-world cave zone that was entry-gated to completing certain 3.0 content. Ishgard will have reclaimed and completed chunks of the interior, finally succeeding in linking several areas of the Coerthas region together via the cave system and creating camps within. Adventurers could come in via different zones (Central Highlands, Western Highlands, etc.) and either do content at the inner camps, or help clear the "more cave than keep" areas of mobs that have wandered in (or broken in from the Void). Hell, the FATEs write themselves and you could even build it up over time like Revenant's Toll if you wanted to. There's a depressing, almost nonsensical lack of open-world cave zones in this game and its always made me sad.

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Wasn't it said in 2.4 that explorers in the Snowcloak tunnels had found their way through to the other side? I wonder if we'll be able to pass through there in 3.0? I would love to see an open world Darkhold though.

I dont know you guys but from a 1.0 player that grid the hell out of them for relic and best gear, I wouldn't care less if they didn't add a HM version of them to grind again. At least thats for Darkhold and Cutter's Cry.

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

Wasn't it said in 2.4 that explorers in the Snowcloak tunnels had found their way through to the other side? I wonder if we'll be able to pass through there in 3.0? I would love to see an open world Darkhold though.

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I remember that! I remember thinking "huh, the perfect suggestion for the re-introduction of the Western Highlands becoming a playable zone."

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Originally Posted by Urtear

Aurum Vale Hard Mode...the very thought makes most players shiver. All they'd have to do is bring back the original from 1.0 and make it a 4 man. That place was a bleedin NIGHTMARE.

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It'll be a lot easier than vanilla Aurum as the stupid level sync won't apply for the HM version if there is ever going to be one.

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

It'll be a lot easier than vanilla Aurum as the stupid level sync won't apply for the HM version if there is ever going to be one.

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Ida know...Whenever new dungeons are released, there's always one that's a bigger buzz-kill than Buzz Killington. Lost City, Tam Tara, Sastasha hard modes...AV Hard would not only be a buzz kill, SE would go nuts with it. Lookit what they did with Titan when he was current content.

On the bright side, at least not having hard modes for those instances means there's more of a chance for new content to be introduced once we have hard modes for everything else, right? Really I just wanna see how many more "lesser primals" they can stuff in as dungeon bosses in future releases lol, drink for every boss you see that you wish was an egi.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

This. I miss the old sastasha so much... /singletear

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You mean Shposhpaeasdfasdfasjdfaksdfase?

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

You mean Shposhpaeasdfasdfasjdfaksdfase?

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Actually, Mistbeard Cove is what I was considering the 1.0 equivalent of Sastasha, but yeah lol there was also Shposhae and Cassiopeia Hollow as far as open world La Noscean dungeons.

Bomb Baron anyone? So intense! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZzXWvl_UrM

Hungry for more extreme action? Watch this THM solo Great Buffalo for an hour! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MQfXkXhFeM

God, I really miss the open world of 1.0 but DAYUM was combat slow. I can't imagine retaining my sanity while building TP through auto-attacks anymore. Lopping off horns was cool though I guess...

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Actually, Mistbeard Cove is what I was considering the 1.0 equivalent of Sastasha

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Sastasha actually is Mistbeard Cove. The area of Western Thanalan that the Sahagin took over is a large chunk of what used to be Bald Knoll. The early sections of Sastasha are a cave system that connects an area under Skull Valley to the sections of Mistbeard Cove that were sealed off behind a door in 1.0. Try looking at maps of both and using the Waverider Gate as your focal point.

I'd like to see HM versions of the olde 4 but at the same time toto already has 2 paths and both are available. True some of those collapsed passage ways could be opened up to explore further. Cutters... I feel like that one has a rather large different path options. I'd set it something along the lines that instead of ants you got some magic users or something that you have to find and there's like multiple branching ports.

DD hmm maybe going deeper would be interesting there so part would be mostly the same while a part would be going deeper down...

AV maybe coincutter brke through some wall.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Maybe they don't get hard modes because they already did. Those dungeons were no joke in their day. No sense giving them a third incarnation when you can give the others some airtime? Especially considering the new dungeons' resources were all built specifically for this version of the game and may be more versatile on the back-end (I have no idea).

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Originally Posted by Grayve

1.0 dungeons where built without the plans to add Hard Modes, while the 2.0 dungeons where designed from the ground up with future HM's in mind. Assuming that's true (and I seem to recall a quote linked) the reason they don't have HM's is simply because the development resources where never there.

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These points were confirmed today as the reason why those dungeons didn't get hard modes.

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Originally Posted by Naoki Yoshida

The main reason is that since these existed in Version 1.0, they were designed very differently from what we created in A Realm Reborn. Since they weren't created with the new system in mind, it would take almost as much effort to create a brand-new dungeon versus turning one of those into a Hard mode.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

That's 3/5 explained away right there. Hullbreaker concludes a series of namedrops about Mistbeard's legacy reaching all the way back to 1.0, and I'm guessing the Keeper of the Lake will do something very similar - maybe it'll even contain yet another "lesser summon," the same way Snowcloak did despite being primarily framed around Shiva. And that's 5/5, leaving you only with the four 1.0 dungeons left out.

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Well, Keeper of the Lake might tie in with Mistbeard as it features the same Kraken from Hullbreaker and Shastasha Hard. By the way I think that makes it the toughest creature in the game so far. Beware Bahamut, we have a Kraken.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I wouldn't be surprised if this infestation thing happens again, either, but that'd still be the same story - preoccupied House Dzemael lets unfinished keep with thin realm-membranes fill with Voidsent, again.

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I know we've already covered why these dungeons wont be getting hard modes, but isn't that basically the case with half of the hard modes currently? Haukke Manor, Copperbell Mines, and Stone Vigil are all basically; "Thanks for clearing this place out, but we suck and somehow now it's worse", with us fighting the same enemies as before, more or less.

They could actually do something interesting with Dzemael Darkhold. Lets say a heretic takes an important member of House Dzemael hostage in there and we have to go save them, plot twist; The important Dzemael was actually the heretic and planned the whole Darkhold as a plot to unleash Voidsent upon Ishgard.

Heck, since World of Darkness is part of the Void, they could have actually tied Dzemael Darkhold (Hard) into the Crystal Tower story the same way Snowcloak/Keeper tie into the Main Scenario.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Well, Keeper of the Lake might tie in with Mistbeard as it features the same Kraken from Hullbreaker and Shastasha Hard.

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Source? That's the first I'm hearing of Kraken making a third appearance.

Yeah, I can't see Kraken showing up in the main scenario storyline, its unconnected to the Mistbeard storyline.

And it would be weird since it occurs in a lake that doesn't connect to the Sea, but the 2.5 thread does claim that "it'll have thar squid boss again"

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...efore-the-Fall

Make of it what you will.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

And it would be weird since it occurs in a lake that doesn't connect to the Sea, but the 2.5 thread does claim that "it'll have thar squid boss again"

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...efore-the-Fall

Make of it what you will.

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That was just a comment on the stream by a viewer. Not something the devs where stating.

I take it that not everyone is familiar with Nico Nico Douga-style comments on live video feeds. :)

They're like ticker-tape feeds, except that they scroll right across the screen, not just along the bottom edge. They're pretty old-hat in Japan by now, and I actually like the dynamism they add to the video footage — you get the sense that everyone is commenting on what they see, in real-time.

But foreigners who aren't used to them will find the comments extremely distracting, if not downright annoying.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

That was just a comment on the stream by a viewer. Not something the devs where stating.

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I guessed as much. But still if a viewer saw the kraken then the kraken is there.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

I guessed as much. But still if a viewer saw the kraken then the kraken is there.

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No, I watched the stream. It was a guess. That's why the viewer didn't say, "There is the Kraken".

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Originally Posted by Urtear

Ida know...Whenever new dungeons are released, there's always one that's a bigger buzz-kill than Buzz Killington. Lost City, Tam Tara, Sastasha hard modes...AV Hard would not only be a buzz kill, SE would go nuts with it. Lookit what they did with Titan when he was current content.

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The ones you listed as "buzz kill" for me where the best of em. Especially Lost city which had the most interesting mechanics of the 3 experts released, myhtflox was the fastest, but ended up hating the place . Sastasha is fun upto Kraken, boring boss is boring XD Tam Tara had the best story of 2,3 dungeons.

Titan Ex is, also for me, one of the funnest boss fights as no matter your gear and experience he can still humble you when you derp XD

I want a Cutter's Cry HM because I really want to see an Antlion boss fight. :<