Group doesn't have a BRD, how are melee supposed to dps?

I'm curious how NIN/MNK are expected to dps in fights with high mob uptime, such as t10/t11, without a BRD. My current raid group doesn't have a BRD, so I went NIN as they were more self sufficient than a MNK and the dps loss wasn't too bad. Enter the 2.45 TP changes and I run out of TP at the same speed as a MNK, so what exactly am I supposed to do?

There's only one solution, and that's get a BRD. Every other possible solution will result in someone or multiple people being TP/MP starved.

It's pretty rare to see a raid group without any bard in it, Their utility is too important to not bring them. If your melee dps dies, which is more likely to happens unless you are really well in FCoB, your Healer might not want to raise you so they can keep mp and keep tank alive. If only for Mp song that bard is necessary, i thing you should get one or be one. But not my raid group, up to you mate!

We used to have a BRD, but lost him around when we started t9. There are enough breaks in that fight to not run out of tp, and I also switched to NIN around that time so there were even less problems. As it is now, we have no one that can or wants to switch to BRD so...guess I'm just out of luck. Really confused why SE would design melee to be dependent on a BRD.

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Originally Posted by Kiokin

We used to have a BRD, but lost him around when we started t9. There are enough breaks in that fight to not run out of tp, and I also switched to NIN around that time so there were even less problems. As it is now, we have no one that can or wants to switch to BRD so...guess I'm just out of luck. Really confused why SE would design melee to be dependent on a BRD.

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i'd help you out but i'm in gilgamesh. best i can tell you is to ask on party finder for a bard to join your group. doing shiva or fights like t8 is going to become a chore without one. as for why SE did it, they're trolls? :b

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Originally Posted by lxChrisxl

i'd help you out but i'm in gilgamesh. best i can tell you is to ask on party finder for a bard to join your group. doing shiva or fights like t8 is going to become a chore without one. as for why SE did it, they're trolls? :b

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The problem is we have a full group, but no one that has a BRD/wants to play it. It's incredibly frustrating that SE has designed the group dynamic as such that if you bring melee, a BRD is 100% mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Kiokin

The problem is we have a full group, but no one that has a BRD/wants to play it. It's incredibly frustrating that SE has designed the group dynamic as such that if you bring melee, a BRD is 100% mandatory.

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Not sure how it would eventually play out in the future about BRDs, because one of my friend's group cleared T13 weeks ago without a BRD.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Not sure how it would eventually play out in the future about BRDs, because one of my friend's group cleared T13 weeks ago without a BRD.

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Yea. BRD isn't needed, but Ballad can certainly be a useful tool for extending pulls during progression. Helps the healers be able to spam heals when the tanks and them don't know the timing for the damage spikes yet.

However, I disagree with the other poster. BRD is not mandatory if you bring melee. Paeon isn't mandatory. Proper TP management is mandatory. And the OP mentioned having a NIN. That certainly helps the MNK a lot. More than Paeon would. The NIN however will need to know how to ramp things up and slow it down to maximize their damage dealt with their finite TP supply. It's the same sort of things a SMN needs to do. SMNs don't get Ballad every time they get low.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Yea. BRD isn't needed, but Ballad can certainly be a useful tool for extending pulls during progression. Helps the healers be able to spam heals when the tanks and them don't know the timing for the damage spikes yet.

However, I disagree with the other poster. BRD is not mandatory if you bring melee. Paeon isn't mandatory. Proper TP management is mandatory. And the OP mentioned having a NIN. That certainly helps the MNK a lot. More than Paeon would. The NIN however will need to know how to ramp things up and slow it down to maximize their damage dealt with their finite TP supply. It's the same sort of things a SMN needs to do. SMNs don't get Ballad every time they get low.

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Yeap, in fact the T13 grp I spoke of runs DRG/MNK/NIN during the clear. 3 mDPS without a BRD, no paeons. It just shows that BRD isn't a requirement, at all, or anymore.

However I think BRD still have a place right now, because as one of my FC mate also have pointed out, only the top teams have the brains to properly manage their TP, and their healers good enough to not require ballad. Teams with bad healer MP management and TP management will still give BRDs a job, but not sure for how long, because as time passes, good people get better and in the long run if BRDs doesn't get some WD/dmg adjustment and the DPS gap widens, we might find ourselves in a situation where we are not required in good teams and ended up only in weaker teams that still needs our utility.

EDIT: Actually I'm not too sure about ballads extending progression pulls right now. Because usually if you go in blind and handles mechanics blind, you just die to it easily, you probably won't have the time to actually critically required to play your songs.

Then when you got the mechanics, you are down to 2 types of groups: good grps that get their shits together fast, and clear it. Well, then, ballad and paeon might not be needed once you manage it well and what helps is Foe Requiem. But then if BRDs doesn't get some adjustment soon and dmg gap widens, why bring a BRD then?

Another type of grp: needs your ballad to keep the pull longer. Probably you will end up enraging a lot of times because people keep dying and you kept singing ballads for healer's MP. If that's the case, you aren't in for fast progression, you might end up looking for better groups which eventually doesn't need you as explained above, or you have to accept that you will be stucked to groups that need you, like elaborated in this para.

First, I am the MNK and the NIN. I play either and with the recent tp nerf, they both run out at the same time. Our other melee is DRG, and he has no TP problems.

Second, there is no "slow down TP consumption." We do not have the tools to do that except to stop attacking, and that doesn't solve the problem in the first place.

Third, T12 and T13 have enough breaks that TP isn't a problem. T10 and T11 do not. You need a BRD for those.

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Originally Posted by Kiokin

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Third, T12 and T13 have enough breaks that TP isn't a problem. T10 and T11 do not. You need a BRD for those.

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Unfortunetely, no...
I do not play peon on T10, and we do not have problem, even with a Nin in the team.

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Originally Posted by EdgeFayth

Unfortunetely, no...
I do not play peon on T10, and we do not have problem, even with a Nin in the team.

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Could I get a parse? He has to be sacrificing dps to not run out of tp.

Time your invigorates better?

As soon as your TP is at 600 use it. (500 for DRG)
Then use it as soon as it is up again.

Ninja can even Goad you to help.

It is doable.

No I don't have any parse, I am playing on PS4.
But we killed it before enrage easily, despite "bad" stuff (funny thing: we are clearing T10 for weeks but never got DPS items, only tanks, healer or non played dps items).
He manages his TP properly, and it works.

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Originally Posted by aerolol

Time your invigorates better?

As soon as your TP is at 600 use it. (500 for DRG)
Then use it as soon as it is up again.

Ninja can even Goad you to help.

It is doable.

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Doable yes, my group beats enrage and does not use paeon, but as a ninja usually by the later half of the fight I'm running on fumes waiting for each tick between hits for a good while while invig is down. Yes, this is with proper invig usage.

That said, there is no such thing as "managing" tp that people keep saying, we are not healers managing mp, we cannot keep our resources full without serious sacrifice to our dps. All that is is popping invigorate at 580 - 600 tp (mnk/nin/brd) or 480 - 500 tp for drg, then you just pop it whenever it's up after that. The ONLY way to NOT run out in T10 and T11 is to straight up slow down between attacks which...yeah just don't do that.

In these fights you WILL run low on tp, if you don't you're not dpsing enough.

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Originally Posted by aerolol

Time your invigorates better?

As soon as your TP is at 600 use it. (500 for DRG)
Then use it as soon as it is up again.

Ninja can even Goad you to help.

It is doable.

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Geez do you people read...I am the Ninja, so yeah, so much Goad.

Am I even surprised the people posting nonsense aren't even melee dps?

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Originally Posted by Kiokin

Geez do you people read...I am the Ninja, so yeah, so much Goad.

Am I even surprised the people posting nonsense aren't even melee dps?

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Amen to that, everytime I read we need to manage our tp better....
Seriously we're not summoners, we don't have a skill that gives us TP back instead of dealing damage, our only option is to really slow down and wait for TP which isn't really an option imo.
I mean if you have a Ninja in the group we take care of our MNK and BRD TP needs but we're getting shafted by our own TP...
Especially if I see Monks with a Ninja in their group saying the nerf to TP usage was needed I wanna hit them in the face, I mean seriously TP isn't really an issue for them if they have a Ninja but it's okay if we run out?

If you do not run dry on TP in any FCoB fight without a BRD, you are not playing the class properly.

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Originally Posted by SolarMisae

That said, there is no such thing as "managing" tp that people keep saying, we are not healers managing mp, we cannot keep our resources full without serious sacrifice to our dps. All that is is popping invigorate at 580 - 600 tp (mnk/nin/brd)

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Actually better to pop it at around 520-560 there. That way you get it back and usually will coincide with the natural TP regen tick to full 1000 along with an autoattack.

As a bard though I will often be the first out of TP anyway due to not having to move to targets and reposition and so on(there are TP ticks between there). I learned to manage my TP - first thing for me was drop my skillspeed a lot(around 350-400 is where I find it acceptable for longer fights). It also depends if there are many targets or few. If many I'll be out of TP even faster due to dots. So usually am the first to use inv in any raid we are doing.

Ask that monk reroll ninja and goad each others :P

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

If you do not run dry on TP in any FCoB fight without a BRD, you are not playing the class properly.

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I'd say "optimally" instead of "properly", but yeah, same general idea. Our static doesn't run a BRD, and while our DRG is topping the charts with just Goad our NIN and BLM (and most recently, me as SMN) kinda suffer. No static NEEDS a BRD to progress, but your other DPS will never hit their highest numbers without one.

Playing optimally is knowing how to maximize the resources you have for an encounter. Paeon isn't always the answer. Depends on the group config. You don't wait til you 'run dry' when playing optimally. You slow it down beforehand and go all out when your buffs are available. You plan to run out as the boss dies. Not when it's at 50%.

If I considered going all out 100% of the time the only way to play I would only play Paeon outside of the opener because I burn through TP extremely quickly with or without Goad.

'Sorry, no more Foe's. Gotta be greedy and never slow down my GCDs even when it isn't best for raid DPS.' It's funny because while I would never run out of TP my DPS would be lower. Caster DPS would be lower. If you're running MNK + NIN like we do the MNK wouldn't really see any increase. NIN would gain but not enough to compensate.

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Originally Posted by Kiokin

First, I am the MNK and the NIN. I play either and with the recent tp nerf, they both run out at the same time. Our other melee is DRG, and he has no TP problems.

Second, there is no "slow down TP consumption." We do not have the tools to do that except to stop attacking, and that doesn't solve the problem in the first place.

Third, T12 and T13 have enough breaks that TP isn't a problem. T10 and T11 do not. You need a BRD for those.

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Wait, so prior to 2.45 NIN can go on for 5 minutes before it runs out of TP while dragoons can barely get to 3 minutes. You're saying that now DRG doesn't have TP problems but the NIN does?

EDIT: I'm guessing DRG doesn't run out due to Goad

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

Wait, so prior to 2.45 NIN can go on for 5 minutes before it runs out of TP while dragoons can barely get to 3 minutes.

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Said Dragoons should concider taking Invigorate into their hotbar, it would help him a great deal getting past 3 minutes.

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

Wait, so prior to 2.45 NIN can go on for 5 minutes before it runs out of TP while dragoons can barely get to 3 minutes. You're saying that now DRG doesn't have TP problems but the NIN does?

EDIT: I'm guessing DRG doesn't run out due to Goad

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please ask that dragoon how its like to play at a 1.75 gcd must be fun but heavy on tp(if you can't guess i pulled that number out of nowhere)

Welcome to the world of SMNs!

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Originally Posted by Kiokin

The problem is we have a full group, but no one that has a BRD/wants to play it. It's incredibly frustrating that SE has designed the group dynamic as such that if you bring melee, a BRD is 100% mandatory.

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invigorate, oh wait, if only they removed CC restrictions so people could get useful skills...

edit:if added a tp building attack then maybe...

This is just a reminder why I hate fights that don't have some sort of mechanic or downtime to them, like T8. It's hard on melee DPS because there is no long downtime to take advantage of to avoid running out of TP, which is why these are pretty much the only fights we run out of TP in. Though these are also the fights SMN and BLM do best in, so I guess it's a trade-off in place.

sorry in fights with no downtime SMNs can also have it hard while maintaining max DPS. BLMs are the only ones with have no issues resource wise.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

sorry in fights with no downtime SMNs can also have it hard while maintaining max DPS. BLMs are the only ones with have no issues resource wise.

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And the crunch there is a lack of bard playing foe, as much as he would in a high downtime fight.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

sorry in fights with no downtime SMNs can also have it hard while maintaining max DPS. BLMs are the only ones with have no issues resource wise.

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BLM masterrace. jk lol

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Garbage statement that is belittling, completely unhelpful, and doesn't contribute to the thread.

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What is this mythical "playing optimally" you keep talking about? You've yet to show or tell anyone anything about. How do you not run out of TP 4 minutes into the fight as a MNK/NIN? I want a video. Show me.

Best cop out. "You're trolling so I don't have to explain anything."

Never change, internet.

Hi there, career Dragoon here.

You can go for about 4:20-4:40 while sticking the rotation down to the letter and managing your Invigorate pretty much perfectly before you run out of TP. At that point there's usually about 20 seconds (or so; can't remember) until Invigorate comes off of CD. Without a Paeon pre-empting that, your DPS will go down the toilet. Monks and Ninjas will have their own exhaust times, but will still hit that wall.

Honestly, I think a Bard is pretty much a mandatory spot in a Raid. I get it if people don't want to play it, but they bring incredible utility and can still do decent DPS. Plus, the fact that they can attack whilst moving from a range and have no positionals is often a great boon for dealing with mechanics (T8's Brainjack being a good example).

TP is finite resource, and it will run out without a Bard. Simply putting delays between your abilities is no help at all - I imagine that the lower overall DPS that someone doing this would have is about even with the DPS of someone who pushes hard and then has to sit around like a lemon waiting for Invigorate to come off cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Mibhas

TP is finite resource, and it will run out without a Bard. Simply putting delays between your abilities is no help at all - I imagine that the lower overall DPS that someone doing this would have is about even with the DPS of someone who pushes hard and then has to sit around like a lemon waiting for Invigorate to come off cooldown.

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It'd be worse, because you won't get to make the most of buffs.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

It'd be worse, because you won't get to make the most of buffs.

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Glad someone gets it. :)

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

It'd be worse, because you won't get to make the most of buffs.

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Do you mean because the dps has to sit on buffs instead of being able to use them?

Like B4B and invig?

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Do you mean because the dps has to sit on buffs instead of being able to use them?

Like B4B and invig?

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1. why would you sit on invig if you're getting starved?
and 2. you're slowing down before the buffs are up so you can go all out when the buffs are up.

After actually slowing down a bit and our nin learning better how to manage tp I didn't have to paeon during t13, and pretty sure unless people die or mess up I won't be asked to paeon in t10-13 next week. Learn to slow down a bit if you see it will be an issue, or you will sit on your buffs because you have no tp at all.

Guess ya not gonna find the answer here OP. seems like some want ya to "slow down" your GCD atks o.O. Please don't do that lol. You're most likely gonna need a bard,even with popping invig, unless you just literally stand there and do nothing but auto-atk, or wait those delayed gcd ticks as you keep hitting 0 until invig comes back up. I know you said no one wants to be one, but if the grp keeps doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome...well...have I ever told you the definition of insanity?

If push comes to shove and no one switches, then you really will have to stop dps at points or deal with delayed gcd ticks until that 3rd invig comes up. As a fellow monk and nin, that will be some annoying stuff xD.

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Originally Posted by Elkya95

1. why would you sit on invig if you're getting starved?
and 2. you're slowing down before the buffs are up so you can go all out when the buffs are up.

After actually slowing down a bit and our nin learning better how to manage tp I didn't have to paeon during t13, and pretty sure unless people die or mess up I won't be asked to paeon in t10-13 next week. Learn to slow down a bit if you see it will be an issue, or you will sit on your buffs because you have no tp at all.

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I meant IR and not invig, dunno why II typed invigorate.

Anyway, having to sit on B4B and IR since you tint have the tp to put them to good use.

On this same note of slowing down and managing tp, I shouldn't have to Goad anyone bit the mnk. The brd should slow down and learn how to manage their tp better.

:D

Edit: Seriously though, I dont.give many brds goad unless they are AoEing something down. Other than that, I kind of just Goad the other melee when they ask for it or one of the tanks when they run low (war especially).

Brds look out for the casters, nin looks out for the melee/tanks. When I run across brds that are willing to paeon for me, then I start tossing them goad.

OP, unfortunately some on your group should switch to brd. They aren't 100 % needed but they do make things easier as a whole. Just make sure they know not to let the melee dps starve like a lot of other brds tend to do.