The game is way to Easy until you get to End Game

Leveling a new character after WAR is extremely boring when its the same dungeons over and over and those dungeons don't even post much of a challenge. The hunting log is nice to level with but there needs to be more variation of dungeons and if not make them more difficult so its something that doesn't become repetitively boring..

I've been saying this since I leveled all my jobs except the tanks and PUG... SE needs to stop putting in just Lvl 50 content and actually add in a leveling dungeon every so often as well.

The same dungeons over and over again is literally just the most draining experience ever. Give us more leveling dungeons. I don't need yet another dungeon at lvl 50.

I figure that post-expansion there will be additional methods/places to level up. They can't make us take Dark Knight back through old 2.0 content, right?

Some of us have lives, unlike some entitled hardcore elitists. Thanks SE for making the dungeons accessible for the majority, and not just the 1%.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

I figure that post-expansion there will be additional methods/places to level up. They can't make us take Dark Knight back through old 2.0 content, right?

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I honestly kind of figured that they would just leave the dungeons right now (and the ones to be introduced) as our new leveling dungeons. Like, Amdapor Keep lvl 50...Snowcloak lvl 58 that sort of thing. Which would be cool for 50+ but yet still awful for the first 1-50 levels...

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Some of us have lives, unlike some entitled hardcore elitists. Thanks SE for making the dungeons accessible for the majority, and not just the 1%.

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Wut? Your post literally just came out of nowhere and decided to rant over nothing.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

I figure that post-expansion there will be additional methods/places to level up. They can't make us take Dark Knight back through old 2.0 content, right?

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At the fan Fest they mentioned something about players Entering a Code and you could start the game right away as a LV50 DRK.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Wut? Your post literally just came out of nowhere and decided to rant over nothing.

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It was sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

At the fan Fest they mentioned something about players Entering a Code and you could start the game right away as a LV50 DRK.

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I believe Yoshida was just toying with the idea, not that he was going to actually do it (probably a response to WoW with its instant LV90 button)

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I believe Yoshida was just toying with the idea, not that he was going to actually do it (probably a response to WoW with its instant LV90 button)

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I sincerely hope he doesn't. People need to learn how to play their classes, not bumrush their way to endgame and have no clue how to play them.

It's a safe bet for now that he won't do it. If he said back then that he WAS going to, the forums would have exploded back then.

I like leveling classes. I hope we start at level 1 with the new jobs and I don't mind doing the old dungeons. It's not like it takes that long to level up and then you're mostly done with them anyway.

Plus they are other ways to level up. I find doing Leve quest in a party is a great way to gain EXP but if DRK dose start from LV1 we might be able to get a EXP boost for it.

Also LV50 ins't going to be the new end game Level anymore so people would have 10+ levels to learn it. But I can see what you mean, some players might take more then 10 levels to master it or more like get used to it.

They could do the same they did with the Level 50 HM Versions of old dungeons. Why no low level Version of Wanderer's Palace or Pharos Sirius or the other Level 50 dungeons? The dungeons are in the Game, would just need some fine tuning on HP and other things. Not too costy for SE and more variety for those levelling.

Wait, new character or new classes? If the first, at least you have all the quests available besides hunt log and dungeons. If you watch all the CS, maybe you'll catch some lore you didn't the first time. Or you could skip them all and save yourself a LOT of time this go round. If you mean new classes on the SAME character, I suggest leaving side quests for this very purpose. Doing MSQ and dungeons is more than enough to get to 50 in a short time on your main class. Side quests, dungeons, hunt log, FATEs, and leves will help to level other classes. Go with friends too! Makes things way more fun. :)

Personally, I like leveling... way more gratifying than throwing myself at the same primal or coil turn over and over.

There is some challenging content to 50

Brayflox
Titan
Stone Vigil
Garuda
Arum Vaule

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Originally Posted by TomTom1968

They could do the same they did with the Level 50 HM Versions of old dungeons. Why no low level Version of Wanderer's Palace or Pharos Sirius or the other Level 50 dungeons? The dungeons are in the Game, would just need some fine tuning on HP and other things. Not too costy for SE and more variety for those levelling.

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Because we have enough re-hashed dungeons in the effect of every original 2.0 dungeon having a HM variant. While technically, the HM's have different paths through the area and have different bosses, to me they always just feel like re-hashed content because the environments are the same. I look forward to each major patch's new dungeon, because they are fresh experiences with new locales, new traps/gimmicks, and normally have new enemies.I appeciate the fact that SE does give us the HM versions of the dungeons, so there is some variety. I am usually much more happy to get Snowcloak with my roulette as opposed to Qarn (I actually &^(*% hate Sastasha Hm, and normally I don't despise dungeons like this).


2.3 was an exception to this because Tam-Tara HM was amazing.


I totally agree that the 1-50 leveling dungeons could use some new ones.

New leveling dungeons come with 3.0 as lv51-60 dungeons
For new dungeons at lv 17-49, at which level should they be? I think the current dungeons cover the whole level range already.

There's 12 dungeons from level 1-50
Theres FATE's Everywhere
Hunting log
Sightseeing Log
Guild levels
14 guildhests
Hunts

This does not include Quests as the lions share of them are exhausted with your first class from 1-50. To me it looks like there are lots of ways to level up that you can switch between to keep things from getting too stale. If you only rely on a single way to level, of course it will be boring. Also, this is "vanilla" FFXIV:ARR I would expect more ways to level will come out as the game grows. Can you compare this to any other MMO within its first year of launch? Just curious to know if other games do this better, i honestly dont know. I've only really played FFXI, WoW, then this game.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

At the fan Fest they mentioned something about players Entering a Code and you could start the game right away as a LV50 DRK.

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I didn't understand it that way. From what I remember he said you'd register the game and be able to be a Dark Knight right from the start but he never said you'd instantly be level 50. They meant it more as an explanation that you do not start as a class and then unlock the job at lvl 30 for this job.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

There's 12 dungeons from level 1-50

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Not considering all of the rest of your points, there are 16 endgame (post-50) dungeons, 18 including both CT/ST, neither of those numbers including any of the Coil turns or various Trials in the game.

Considering the rest of your points, hunts is not a way to level a character. If you can gain experience from them, you effectively need a party to do the work for you, because it is unreasonable to assume a level 49 or lower class can solo even a B rank. Hunting logs only give a fraction of levels, you can not use those solely to level. Levequests are on an allowance, and my friend leveled ninja yesterday and needed 60 of them to get from 49-50. Combining all of those things (in this paragraph) will not equal one fully leveled Job and then you have exhausted all of your levequests.

I love what they did with Guildhests, by making them repeatable xp bonuses for each separate job you complete them with. However these bonuses added to everything in paragraph prior are also still not enough to level a job fully to 50. At least these are repeatable. Levequests gate you with regenerating only 6/day. I would argue we need more Guildhests also, something like another 1 for each 5 level tier. Guildhests are pretty fun IMO, however if you don't queue to them as a tank/heal you're going to wait just as long (if not longer) than you would to dungeon queue.

Which brings us to FATEs. Yes, you can theoretically level all of your entire Jobs to 50 solely through FATEs. This becomes exceedingly tedious after even doing it just once. I can't speak for everyone, but I actually enjoy doing FATEs from time to time, as long as it is just from time to time. If I were forced to use FATEs to level, I would never have gotten my cross class skills for all of my jobs because it just becomes un-interesting after awhile.


So, initially there are lots of ways to break up the monotony, but we are a year into the game. Many of the people who have been around awhile just don't have the option to do quests because they have been done for some time. Leve allowances are shared between craft/gather classes as well, so in that regard you have to pick your poison. Either level a DoM/DoW or a DoH/DoL.


I don't think anyone was trying to argue that there aren't multiple ways to achieve level 50 on a Job, however the end-game list of activities are growing with every patch, and basically the only thing we have gotten since 2.0 that can even remotely help actually achieving level 50 is the only thing you left off of your list: Beast Tribe quests. And you can only do 6 of those a day :p

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I sincerely hope he doesn't. People need to learn how to play their classes, not bumrush their way to endgame and have no clue how to play them.

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This wont really help too many people leveling the new DPS classes either now will it? >__>

What we really could use is just more low level quests. Leveling the other classes is just...painful. It's grinding in it's purest form. You do the same 5 Leve quests for 5 lvls at a time, dungeons (the wait can take up to an hour if you're dps), or grind fates.

And my friends wonder why it takes me forever to get a second class up to cap... Half the time I end up falling asleep at my computer.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

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All great points. I should have had a ? next to hunts cause i wasnt sure if you could participate below level 50. regarding the rest of the things I mentioned, I was not arguing against the OP request for more dungeons, More is great! I was only saying that there are more than one way to skin a cat (level up) in this game. I did forget to include PvP post level 30 but that isnt that viable as a sole way to do it, Wolves Den is the longest queue to wait for.

Also speaking to the OP in making dungeons difficult, they have done that through the forced level sync and level restriction on them, you think its boring now, how much more boring and pointless would it be steamrolling Sastasha at level 50. More dungeons are nice, more alternatives I feel are better. I wouldnt want to be stuck doing a single type of content from 1-50 per job, and I wont do it. There is so much freedom in this MMO that i dont understand how or why people try to limit themselves into a little box. It only hurts yourself and stymies the game for others.

Just my 2 gil.

EDIT:
Just wanted to add, again, that this game is still in its infancy. The devs have not finished adding in the core systems they wanted for this game yet but it was in a state worth releasing and enhancing. Patience, i fear, is a virtue not many people on these forums have. No patience to wait for content to be developed, no patience to put in the time to level a second job (they want it "handed" to them), and no patience to let the devs do their work. I've been here since 1.0 beta, I have seen the changes they have made throughout this whole process. I have confidence that they are planning some really awesome stuff for us and they do consider feedback. But considering feedback does not mean they will bow to the whims of everyone with a complaint, if they did that nothing would ever get finished and it would be a very muddy and complicated mess.

Step 1, read this: http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf

Step 2, ask SE to make the main questline an even bigger driver for the endgame.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

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I apologize if it seemed like I was a bit defensive in my reply to your previous quote, I didn't mean to be. I was also just merely trying to reinforce the point that end-game has been heavily built upon since 2.0 and the build-up really hasn't been. I haven't been around as long as you (phase 3 beta of 2.0) but even I love the additions and enhancements that have been made bringing this game forward. I feel the same, "More is better!", but we are at a point in the game where the end-game activities rival what you can do as a second class trying to make use of this game's largest selling point: Being all classes!

I just don't want to see the leveling process be avoided forever. It's an important part of the game, and as stated before, dungeons is a better way to learn your character throughout that leveling process. And I am the same way, I've been here over a year and I still don't have everything to 50, simply because I won't force myself to regurgitate content that makes me feel like I'm performing a job instead of having fun with the game (i.e. FATEs)

:D

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

I apologize if it seemed like I was a bit defensive in my reply to your previous quote, I didn't mean to be. I was also just merely trying to reinforce the point that end-game has been heavily built upon since 2.0 and the starting meta really hasn't been. I haven't been around as long as you (phase 3 beta of 2.0) but even I love the additions and enhancements that have been made bringing this game forward. I feel the same, "More is better!", but we are at a point in the game where the end-game activities rival what you can do as a second class trying to make use of this game's largest selling point: Being all classes!

I just don't want to see the leveling process be avoided forever. It's an important part of the game, and as stated before, dungeons is a better way to learn your character throughout that leveling process. And I am the same way, I've been here over a year and I still don't have everything to 50, simply because I won't force myself to regurgitate content that makes me feel like I'm performing a job instead of having fun with the game (i.e. FATEs)

:D

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Lol, no need to apologize! It was a nice conversation!I will say that they have been tweaking the 1-50 content since 2.0 launched. not in the leaps and bounds that they have with the endgame content but these end game additions are things they wanted to have in there in the first place. to the best of my knowledge FFXIV 2.0 wont be in the state Yoshi-P wanted it to be in at launch until the release of 3.0. Things like the full CT and the Housing and the ROG/NIN and the Golden Saucer and the Treasure hunts, etc were all supposed to be in at launch. Due to having to rebuild the game in the fashion they did they didnt have the luxury of taking the 5 years of development most games have. I could go into more detail on what happened if you like.

TL;DR
They are still building the foundation of the game through major patches, its why we see so much content each 2.X patch. Once its in the proper state, they can have more freedom of resources to expand on things.

A lot of people do have all 50s, or at least all the classes they want to play at 50. It's kind of wasting development time making dungeons that most people won't play, or just play once to see it.

Which isn't to say it isn't a problem, leveling ninja was kind of a pain, but the solution is probably just to make leveling faster.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

At the fan Fest they mentioned something about players Entering a Code and you could start the game right away as a LV50 DRK.

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He said you'd unlock the class when you enter the key for the expansion. Not that it'd be level 50 right away.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

He said you'd unlock the class when you enter the key for the expansion. Not that it'd be level 50 right away.

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Thats not even what I took away from it. What i remember was you will have access to the Jobs in 3.0 when you register. This is just my impression on what happens, you wont get access to 3.0 areas and story until you have caught up on the 2.0 story and completed it. Then you will have access to the zones and their content. you wont automatically have the new jobs but you will have access to the quest that unlocks the jobs but you would still have to unlock them. once unlocked they start at level 1 just without a starting class. (i'm positive they said jobs will start at 1 not 50) now will this mean there are level 1 zones in 3.0 areas or will you need to go back to 2.0 areas to level up?



Basically its speculation at this point so I dont see the need to theorize ourselves into a frenzy without more information. The forums already did this over the ROG/NIN implementation and it turned out fine (except for the fact there was only one class released but thats something completely different.) Oh and there was never a mention of "Classes" in 3.0 only Jobs

The dungeons are suppose to slowly scale and let you learn, but maybe the learning process is a bit too slow on the way to 50? Would it be very difficult to slightly adjust the dungeons? Give out more environmental challenges \ the mobs have a bit nastier abilities. Or would that be too much stuff to re-do just for low level..heck even in 50 dungeons it would be nice to see something more and a few nasty abilities to mobs.

What I would love also, and i'm sure it's a bit out of topic is low level roulette you can party up in. Since we're getting a few more jobs in 3.0. I would love to level a job with a few friends, or when you're at 50 and they want some help..get your roulette bonus..or maybe that's asking too much.

Game was easier to level in 1.0 actually (See Levequests.)

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Originally Posted by coldreactive

Game was easier to level in 1.0 actually (See Levequests.)

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Make that WAR pt's haha.

Anyway, I honestly think the curve is fairly good for increasing difficulty. The first 2-3 dungeons have very minor mechanics, then Brayflox hits you and you have to know to kill adds quickly, avoid frontal cone AoE, break out of gaols, and keep a boss out of it's own AoE. That's just one example.

Also, a lot of mechanics in BC are actually similar to ones you encounter from earlier dungeons. They may hit harder/be less forgiving, plus they have ones that are new, but you can still use what you learned before to progress.

I'm not sure how the devs will handle new progression, as leveling is already pretty easy/fast (still not as easy as FFXI now, or 1.0, but still). Maybe there will be changes to the loot system or something to motivate players to do them.

Also, on the point of "not wanting more lvl50 dungeons", you have to understand that getting all DoW/DoM to 50 can be done quite quickly, but then what? Adding more dungeons for lvl50 progression keeps it fresh for the majority of players. If you go into High Level Roulette right now, not Expert, you can get a lot of different dungeons.

Compared to 1.x we have now a lot of ways to level up a class.
During 1.x you had leves (8 for DoM/DoW and DoL each 36 hours and 8 for DoH each 36 hours), Behest (all 30 minutes) and common Exp party on common open world enemies.

Dunesfolk for Dinner (a very popular Leve during 1.x): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNKuxqV8HRE

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I sincerely hope he doesn't. People need to learn how to play their classes, not bumrush their way to endgame and have no clue how to play them.

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What, you think people learn a lot about how to play by doing FATE grinding? It's pretty trivial to get to level 50 without knowing anything. Also, leveling up doesn't teach you how to play. How you play at level 5, 15, 30, 45, etc. has little to do with how you play at level 50. Stuff pre-50 doesn't really prepare you for the mechanics-laden madness of endgame.

Most critically, an intelligent individual will learn how to play correctly even if you give them a max level character right from the get. Less intelligent people won't, no matter how much you handhold them, so I don't even know what your argument is here.

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Originally Posted by Hiruke

What, you think people learn a lot about how to play by doing FATE grinding? It's pretty trivial to get to level 50 without knowing anything.

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1. Limit the amount of participants on a FATE to 8 players (everyone after the 8th player joined have to wait or to search another FATE)
2. Balance the FATEs around a Full Party
3. Put more dungeon boss mechanics into the FATEs
4. problem solved

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

At the fan Fest they mentioned something about players Entering a Code and you could start the game right away as a LV50 DRK.

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:/ That is not what he said at all. He just said that MAYBE you will be able to be Dark Knight right away. Dark Knight will not have a class, but they never said anything about being level 50 right off the bat.

There's no way it'd start at 50. Don't kid yourselves.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

-snip-
EDIT:
Just wanted to add, again, that this game is still in its infancy. The devs have not finished adding in the core systems they wanted for this game yet but it was in a state worth releasing and enhancing. Patience, i fear, is a virtue not many people on these forums have. No patience to wait for content to be developed, no patience to put in the time to level a second job (they want it "handed" to them), and no patience to let the devs do their work. I've been here since 1.0 beta, I have seen the changes they have made throughout this whole process. I have confidence that they are planning some really awesome stuff for us and they do consider feedback. But considering feedback does not mean they will bow to the whims of everyone with a complaint, if they did that nothing would ever get finished and it would be a very muddy and complicated mess.

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This. This right here is what I think while reading this thread.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I sincerely hope he doesn't. People need to learn how to play their classes, not bumrush their way to endgame and have no clue how to play them.

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By playing the class with all their 20+ skills at endgame, and to fail, to learn, until you get it right, is more productive than to try to master 3 skills..

And like everyone that unlocked all jobs to the cap, doing the same stuff over and over, I might be tempted to click that button if it was offered.

I don't know about it being way too easy. There are green sprouts in our FC that always seem to get lost, lose track of what they need to do etc, do the wrong alt class to 15 etc. etc. And then run into issue with tanks and healer failing at Haukke Manor at 28 or Brayflox at 32. It is straightforward for those that know, but it is still a curve for many others. You much rather the game be accessible than a vertical wall right from the get-go and scare away all the players.

So what choices have you got?
- Easy at the start, easy at end. This I think people will get done and move on and is not what the vast majority of players want, even if some cry about atma/novus/nexus farming.
- Hard at the start, hard at the end. Well this is just too hard for people. This is a non starter, SE does not want a game that formidable that they can not make money.
- Hard at the start, easy at the end. I don't know how many people want this kind of nonsense. But sure seems like people who got stuff on farm likes it this way and want to keep things inaccessible to everyone else and cries every time adjustments are made like SCoB getting their recent tweaks.

So what do you have left:
- Easier at the start, and harder at the end. Which is what we have now.