Piety on Nexus weapon

Hi!

Does someone know how much Piety you have to put on a healer weapon to get + 1 point on your Nexus?

Most people say (guess xD) it's about 22 or 23 points you need, but I saw a SCH weapon with these attributes:
Piety 21, Determination 25, Spell Speed 31 (no Crit but whatever)

Total would be 77, which means + 2 attribute points as Novus always has 75.
As Determination only gets a bonus when it's been at 31 or so, and Spell Speed / Critical Hit Rate gets their bonuses at about ~20 and ~40 (don't know), does that mean Piety gets its bonus point already at 20 points?

If you have a Novus weapon with, for example, Determination 31, Piety 20, Spell Speed 24 OR Crit 24, would you get 1 extra point for each attribute?
And if you had a Novus with Piety 33 and Critical Hit Rate 42, would you get + 4 on your Nexus?

I'm asking this because I read that when you have 3 stats instead of 2 on your Novus you can't get + 3 on your Nexus. Just want to make that sure because no one really seems to know that, at least I couldn't really find anything about it.

Thanks. ^^

Personally, I'm not sure why anyone would put Spell Speed on SCH gear. Spell Speed is such a useless stat, really even for WHMs.

I did a +33 Crit, +23 Det, and +19 Pie build on my Novus and only ended up with +1 to each.

It really all depends on how you heal and what you feel you need more. Pie + Det or Crit + Det are really the only two builds you should worry about. Also, my Nexus, while the Crit/Pie on the HA Grimoire of Healing is slightly higher, the loss in Det for 1% more Crit is negligible and really just makes the current Nexus that much better.

44cap (Acc Crit Speed Parry): +1 at 22 and 44
31cap (Det): +1 at 31
33cap(PIE): +1 at 15 and 30, or 16 and 32 (unverified, probably the latter)

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Originally Posted by NRhodes

Spell Speed is such a useless stat, even for WHMs.

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Blasphemy! SS is awesome for WHM, my spells are almost on a 2 second cast time, that half second helps make up the lag and has been the difference between a dead tank and healthy one!

Note: SS also is a straight buff to PoM, more SS = stronger PoM, food for thought.

Piety and SS as much as I can as WHM. Heals are strong enough by themselves, no need to push them that little by Det.

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Originally Posted by NRhodes

I did a +33 Crit, +23 Det, and +19 Pie build on my Novus and only ended up with +1 to each.

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I thought Determination only rises when it's capped, at 31.

And it's not that I wanted the same stats as in the example. xD I only wanted to ask because I couldn't find the amount of points you have to put into Piety for +1. I had read it only rises when it's capped.
But it'd be great if it really already rises at 15 oder 16. ^^

And I like Spell Speed and Determination.
Determination is great, with worse gear but more Determination I healed the same amount I heal now, even though I was a few ilvls lower.
It depends on how you play and what you like. Some people like Critical Hit Rate, some like Piety and so on.

Thanks for your answers. ^^

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

Blasphemy! SS is awesome for WHM, my spells are almost on a 2 second cast time, that half second helps make up the lag and has been the difference between a dead tank and healthy one!

Note: SS also is a straight buff to PoM, more SS = stronger PoM, food for thought.

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Lol don't go getting bent out of shape please. Is it more useful on a WHM than SCH? Sure. But the weight of the stat is so horrendously bad, that stacking it specifically is a waste. You're naturally as a WHM going to get SPS with your gear, since by most standards, you'll be avoiding Crit gear as much as possible.

Also SCH don't need SPS, seriously. Our longest cast is 2.5 secs on Succor, which tbh, is seldom used. Most cases, Succor (since the actual heal is meh), is used purely for raid wide damage mitigation (i.e. T9 megaflares, T8 defense tower explosions, etc.). Let your WHM raid heal unless you're solo healing and/or with another SCH.

Also @ Limonia - You may be right. I just sort of glanced over, wasn't really too worried about the increase in stats, because honestly...the more Gil you spent, the better increase you got - which, to me is whatever. Am I a little salty about it? Sure. But even with my current stats on my Nexus, it far exceeds the HA Grimoire for what I want for my build, so I'm satisfied.

Some WHMs like their SS because they think it feels better, but it's still a poor stat to focus on for any caster aside from BLM. The benefit for the investment is minimal for a class that isn't perpetually casting on cooldown.

Spell speed is not that bad, like I was talking about on another thread, was makign a deep comparaison of all stats a whm can get.

There is, in my head, 3 good choises as WHM about stats :

Full piety and as much deter possible you can get (most whm does this, no ?)
Full Piety + as much SS you can get
OR, Full SS + as much piety you can get

There is some that are doing a mix, I dont think it's a good idea, with not enough SS, you feel no difference, it's not that bad, becoz everything can work as WHM, but...

I choised myself full piety + max SS I can get (have also the invers in case)

I already explained the reasons of this choise, on the other thread, i'll just say : We (WHM) dont put shields like scholar, we already overheal a lot, the only good thing abbout deter, it for the skills that doesn't overheal easly or it's not a problem if it overheal a little : Medica, Medica 2, regen (I prefer overheal a little the tank, more safe)

While I respect your character-building preferences, I still prefer DET/PIE/CRIT for WHM. Some SS comes with the gear, but beyond that I don't make it a focus. I'll always take the option to heal and DPS for more rather than not.

The main difference between my SCH and WHM build strats is that I sub out CRIT-focused gear for DET for WHM where appropriate, and I don't mind having higher PIE. If people are going to die, it's usually because they made an unrecoverable mistake or were taking damage at a rate that couldn't be countered by anything short of Lustrate spam or a Benediction, not because the WHM healing .15 seconds faster would have made the difference.

0.15sec in some fights, can make a difference, in burst dmg on take, or dps, or both, I can say the same about determination.

It's not 50-60 more determination, that does like 10 mind, that's gonna save someone or make the fight easier.

I even feel that 0.15sec casting speed can be more useful than 50-60deter that is like 20more heal on a cure, or less.

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Originally Posted by Artiste

0.15sec in some fights, can make a difference, in burst dmg on take, or dps, or both, I can say the same about determination.

It's not 50-60 more determination, that does like 10 mind, that's gonna save someone or make the fight easier.

I even feel that 0.15sec casting speed can be more useful than 50-60deter that is like 20more heal on a cure, or less.

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The best thing about DET is that it provides a consistent benefit. SS, on the other hand, is generally difficult to get any real benefit from except when chaining hard casts over an extended period (i.e. only when playing BLM).

That isn't to say that I don't support people playing the way they want, though. It's good to have some variety :)

Yes OFC, I was thinking like you a while ago, I changed my mind.
Actually, both playstyle are not bad, like I'm saying usually, almost every stats work as WHM anyway (but I whould say a full crit build, I almost took aggro once in T9 when I crited too much, and I have only 400 crit)

Spell speed is only useful for the currently terrible meta white mage: The reactive white mage. This meta involves players filling HP bars the moment they see the HP drop. The other kind of white mage would utilise pre-casting. Pre-casting would mean that you channel a spell in a manner that it heals someone the moment damage is inflicted. If you're the pre-casting type, spell speed is close to useless. Now why did I only mention White Mage here? Simply because Scholars can get away by not pre-casting or forgetting to pre-cast with Lustrates - Which White Mage can only do once every 5 minutes with Benediction. With this fact, even Piety would be more useful for Scholars than spell speed.

Another topic holds the discussion about this meta: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2355605 (from that post on)

About the topic question: Piety is probably the more useful stat to put on aside from determination. Piety gives you more self-sustain mp-wise. Once you're at a comfortable MP-pool, having piety on the weapon opens up more gear options that favors other stats (det/crit) over piety. Depending on the kind of healer you are, spell speed is useless as it will drain you of your mp faster or you'll have more idle time. Idle time would defeat the purpose of having spell speed in the first place (this time could be used to pre-cast and perhaps cast cancel proved to be unnecessary)

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Spell speed is only useful for the currently terrible meta white mage: The reactive white mage.

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Thats incomplete. Spell Speed often allows you to squeeze a heal out in movement heavy situations when others without spell speed have to abort, e.g. Titan Plumes just to mention one.

Also, for, like a said on previous message, for burst dmg.
Like the 5c claws in T9, with 0.12-.0.15sec less each cast, you may be able to do cure2 a little before beetwin the attacks, also, have more time to cast stoneskin during the bahamut favor before begining to cats a new spell.

In 10-15sec burst, with spell-speed, you may be able to cast one more spell, but with determination, you'll just heal a little more, not a bad thing neither, but I prefer spell speed.

And dont make me wrong, It's not becoz I'm playing spell-speed that I play " on reaction ", if I was playing like this, I whouldn't go far in T9 when I went there first time with something like 94-95 ilvl.
I precast a big heal, like Cure2, when I know my tank gonna take high dmg, after trying the fight so many times, I know when he may take hight dmg (or may not in the scholar crit with his shield, and then, I overheal, but whatever)

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Originally Posted by Grotesque

Thats incomplete. Spell Speed often allows you to squeeze a heal out in movement heavy situations when others without spell speed have to abort, e.g. Titan Plumes just to mention one.

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Titan plume mechanic is a terrible example to elaborate spell speed. The tank will have no incoming damage while plumes are being cast - As it is being channeled. If the tank's prone to dying prior to plumes being cast, you're doing something wrong. There's no direct combination damage on the tank in that entire encounter unless too many people have died - Which will most likely lead to a wipe either way with 3+ deaths.

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Originally Posted by Artiste

Also, for, like a said on previous message, for burst dmg.
Like the 5c claws in T9, with 0.12-.0.15sec less each cast, you may be able to do cure2 a little before beetwin the attacks, also, have more time to cast stoneskin during the bahamut favor before begining to cats a new spell.

In 10-15sec burst, with spell-speed, you may be able to cast one more spell, but with determination, you'll just heal a little more, not a bad thing neither, but I prefer spell speed.

And dont make me wrong, It's not becoz I'm playing spell-speed that I play " on reaction ", if I was playing like this, I whouldn't go far in T9 when I went there first time with something like 94-95 ilvl.
I precast a big heal, like Cure2, when I know my tank gonna take high dmg, after trying the fight so many times, I know when he may take hight dmg (or may not in the scholar crit with his shield, and then, I overheal, but whatever)

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A properly prepped up tank can survive T9 claws: Stoneskin/Adloquium beforehand, Virus Nael, Pre-cast a Cure II/Adloquium before the first claw even goes in. Even with 0 spell speed you can get 2 cures in during the claws and one right after the 5th, spell speed makes no difference on this part - Three cures if you use Presence of Mind. Depending on the amount of favors you can even toss in a divine seal or lustrate right after the second adloquium. This part can be solo healed if needed or even a well-timed benediction is sufficient if you are late by reaction to it, rather than anticipating it. You even mentioned you pre-cast yourself. Whether you pre-cast with 1,90s casting time or 2,00s casting time, this does not matter when pre-casted.

For sake of numbers, you keep mentioning 0,12-0,15s casting time difference, but in practice that's way less. There's natural spell speed on a lot of pieces whether you want to take spell speed or not (HA choker, Sol choker, HA gloves, Sol gloves etc.). Without even trying to get spell speed in my gear I already have a 1,90s casting time on Cure. If I were to swap out my HA cane for something without spell speed that's at 1,94. Even if you manage to get 0 spell speed from your gear you're at a 2 second casting time. With max spell speed on the nexus (as we are discussing this, not gear overal), the nexus will decrease your casting time by a maximum of 0,04s. Contrary to the 0,12-0,15s you mentioned before.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

A properly prepped up tank can survive T9 claws: Stoneskin/Adloquium beforehand, Virus Nael, Pre-cast a Cure II/Adloquium before the first claw even goes in. Even with 0 spell speed you can get 2 cures in during the claws and one right after the 5th, spell speed makes no difference on this part - Three cures if you use Presence of Mind. Depending on the amount of favors you can even toss in a divine seal or lustrate right after the second adloquium. This part can be solo healed if needed or even a well-timed benediction is sufficient if you are late by reaction to it, rather than anticipating it. You even mentioned you pre-cast yourself. Whether you pre-cast with 1,90s casting time or 2,00s casting time, this does not matter when pre-casted.

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Yeah, you do the fight by overgear now, now for the 2-3 first claw (in the fight i main, not the 2-3 first in a single attack), if I put stoneskin before, the tank can even survive without healing beetwin the attacks.
Now, we overgear everything in the game, was not same before.
With the kind of arguement, I can sy same about every stats and show how useless they can be.

I'm more thinking about next donjons, and I think there, even if only a little, more spell-speed will be more useful then more determination.
But I still focus on Piety mainly now.

About determination, like you said about piety, we'll get also a little on the gear, so the difference beetwin someone that focuson determination and someone that focus on speel-speed will be low also.
The secondary stats in this game doesn't make a huge difference, wathever the stats is, the arguement mean nothing.

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Originally Posted by Artiste

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I've first cleared T9 in i93-94 gear with an i95 scholar. If the tanks aren't geared up enough it simply involves different CD management, simple as that.


I stand by how useless spell speed is. You're looking at a 10 second time frame where I am looking at the entire encounter. Reducing your casting time by -0.05 or even -0.10 hardly does anything. All it does is speed up any corrections you have to make for blundering in the first place (preparation and pre-casting) and you're betting on luck that the 0.05-0.10 difference heals in time or not. No spell speed is necessary if you plan properly.

For determination you need roughly 25 of it to increase your healing by 10. Not an amazing amount, but what does spell speed do to increase healing? Determination virtually adds increased healing at no cost. Where spell speed -could- increase your healing only if you spam it without stopping. Any idle time nullifies any benefits spell speed gives. Which, again, makes it a useless stat. Additionally: 25 det equals 6-7 more hp recovery for Medica. AoE heals yield more hp recovered for every point in determination. But I guess spell speed does allow you to cast an extra Medica if you spam it 20 times. Because every white mage likes to spam AoE heals just for the heck of it, right?
Piety gives 7-8 more MP for every point in this. Although not an amazing amount either, piety offers you an increased MP pool to start with. A larger MP pool also means more natural MP recovery (2% of your maximum MP). Now does spell speed add any sustain? I believe not.

While this argument does not mean anything, it's more about reaching the full potential. But I suppose when third coil hits, scrubby healers with memory capacity of a goldfish could use some spell speed to patch up their mistakes. At least have the pride to defend your standpoint and ideals, rather than brushing it off as "this is pointless".

You think you're playstyle is the best and you cant accept that, there can be different playstyles and there are not all wrong.

I didn't say spells-speed was the best WHM build, I said it's the one I prefer, didn't I ? Should read me again if you think so.

Why so much trash talk on me becoz I'm just saying that spell-speed is not as bad as ppl can think of it ?
And I never said also that you should remove some Piety to put more SS, no, I wont never say that, for me, Piety is the main stats of the WHM, and if someone remove some piety to put another stats, he's doing something wrong.

I never said Determination is a bad stats neither, plz, read my other messages, you're giving the same arguement I already gave.
Yes, determination is a good stats to choise after Piety, and you're not doing something wrong if you wanna play Piety/deter.

I stack spell speed because I don't like the 2.5 GCD.

Putting Piety, SS and some Det on my Novus (I have enough SS now and I don't need more so I'm matching my Animus) and can do things just fine. At the end of the day it's up to what you like, I've had full det and (almost) full SS builds and the only thing that I found different was that I was having more fun with the latter. All this number talk is pointless if you don't adapt your stats to how you like to play... I mean isn't that what it's important in the end? Having fun playing the game? So do what you like.

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Originally Posted by Artiste

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This was never an argument about your play style or mine. It's about you advocating that spell speed is a stat worth considering while it has no obvious advantages compared to determination, critical hit rate and/or piety. Be it White Mage or Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

This was never an argument about your play style or mine. It's about you advocating that spell speed is a stat worth considering while it has no obvious advantages compared to determination, critical hit rate and/or piety. Be it White Mage or Scholar.

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You cast spells faster. That's kind of an obvious advantage if you ask me. All the off stats scale terribly anyway, just use what works for you. Personally I've had no trouble clearing everything (bar savage coil, not even bothered with it) with lots of spell speed gear, I just prefer being able to cast (slightly) faster over having (slightly) stronger cures.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

You cast spells faster. That's kind of an obvious advantage if you ask me. All the off stats scale terribly anyway, just use what works for you. Personally I've had no trouble clearing everything (bar savage coil, not even bothered with it) with lots of spell speed gear, I just prefer being able to cast (slightly) faster over having (slightly) stronger cures.

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An advantage that only applies if you're slow with healing or casting without interruption. Anticipating damage and casting accordingly to it is the same whether you have 2.00s casting time or 1.90s casting time. As a healer you'll always have a short pause here and there. Any idle time simply makes faster casting pointless: If an encounter requires 100 cures and you cast 10% quicker you'd end up with 110 cures. 110 cures would simply mean 10 unnecessary cures or 10 cures worth of casting time wasted. I'll conclude again: A secondary stat only worth considering for the scrubby healer.

With 2.4 approaching the gear level will increase once again. Determination right now requires 25-27 points for every 10 HP increase on a 400 potency heal. With increased item levels, WD and determination stats on the gear will increase and the determination/healing increase ratio will change. As result: You will get more determination while needing less to get more recovery out of it. Spell speed, on the other hand, might make your heals cast another 0.1s faster and is still pointless when you can anticipate any incoming damage - Pre-casting with 2.00s, 1.90s or 1.80s makes no difference because it's pre-casting.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

You cast spells faster. That's kind of an obvious advantage if you ask me. All the off stats scale terribly anyway, just use what works for you. Personally I've had no trouble clearing everything (bar savage coil, not even bothered with it) with lots of spell speed gear, I just prefer being able to cast (slightly) faster over having (slightly) stronger cures.

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I think any conversation about secondary stats needs to be considered in the context of min-maxing. No one is going to claim that spell speed vs. any other secondary will render a healer unplayable, but when the question arises, it's worth noting why it isn't widely considered to be an optimal stat.


Perhaps more importantly, discussion of spell speed often leads to discussion of healing techniques and why a few hundredths of a second on a 2 second heal shouldn't matter when the good healer is proactive instead of purely reactionary. A lot of players don't immediately realize how to play healers well in this game. The proof of that is in the number of corpse-healers you can observe in casual raid content like ST; watching people slowly die to unavoidable mechanics while the healers lag IRL is both sad and hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Perhaps more importantly, discussion of spell speed often leads to discussion of healing techniques and why a few hundredths of a second on a 2 second heal shouldn't matter when the good healer is proactive instead of purely reactionary. A lot of players don't immediately realize how to play healers well in this game. The proof of that is in the number of corpse-healers you can observe in casual raid content like ST; watching people slowly die to unavoidable mechanics while the healers lag IRL is both sad and hilarious.

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Why are we on different servers again? x3

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Why are we on different servers again? x3

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Because knowing players with a compatible mindset on the same server would be asking too much :P

I really have almost no healer friends. And it's not because I scared them away with my anti-spellspeed dogma, either lol.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Because knowing players with a compatible mindset on the same server would be asking too much :P

I really have almost no healer friends. And it's not because I scared them away with my anti-spellspeed dogma, either lol.

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Servers would explode I bet!

To get back on topic. For those who think style equals to healing in general:

Pre-casting is a technique, not a style
Post-casting is also a technique, not a style and is different than being reactive. Reactive healing would be "OH SHIT" and press cure. Post-casting would be applying stoneskin for specific reasons (T9 exploding debuff thing)
Stat building is a build, not a style. While one does build a stat according to a style your style does not rely on your stats - Unless you magically become a world class healer by stacking spell speed.
Stance dancing (name pending) is a technique, not a style. Rather, you'd be an idiot not to cast damage spells without cleric's stance and an even bigger idiot to heal with cleric's stance - Which, in this case, is actually a style.
Completely focusing on healing or let the other healer take a bit of your share so you can DPS is a style.
Banking MP to be safe or strifing to end the fight with as little MP as possible is a style
Spamming stoneskin as filler-spells (to reduce idle time) is a style

Plenty of more techniques/styles/whatchamacallit around, but spell speed does not define a style. With that, secondary stats should be considered assisting elements:
Determination increases everything in general. Specifically increased healing which effectively yields more HP recovery for the MP spend (MP efficiency increase)
Crit hit rate does increase average HPS over time and is part of the more popular scholar meta
Spell Speed patches up any "OH SHIT" moments you failed to anticipate.

I pre-cast and still stack spellspeed... I don't drop it in favor of det, I drop it in favor of pie. I never need the extra mana, though I do have a piety gearset in case my static ever wants to try Savage.

When I first redid my set to a spellspeed build it was hilarious watching me mistime my Cure IIs/IIIs after Dalamud Dive/Megaflare. XD;;

In a full speed build my cast time is 1.85 seconds, IIRC. Pretty nice, and I fill the idle time with Aeros. That drops det though, so the build I use is a cast time of 1.89. I might drop the HA Circlet for the Daystar for more det...we'll see.

for WHM i go with Spell Speed →　Determination and then piety in a Party you have 2 healer ,1 WHM and 1 SCH or 2 WHM in a party , if you need more piety it mean you over healing or the other healer is not doing he/she job I mean is good to have piety but not fully upgrade.
I Defeat Savage T6 without needing anymore then 4200 MP but have Spell Speed and spam it 3 time that where Spell Speed come in it help alot like Cure II and Medica.

Some players preferences for reference ^^;

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Novus-upgrade