Minor WAR changes that I, personally, would love to see.

As it currently stands, WAR just isn't accepted as MT for certain encounters (mainly T9). I think the reason for this, is their lack of burst mitigation. While I have both WAR and PLD at i110, I enjoy playing WAR much more than I do PLD, and I can understand why this can be discouraging to players that only have WAR as their main job. Here are some minor changes that I think would help WAR as job:

1. Rampart: Allowing WAR to cross-class Rampart from Gladiator would help tremendously. To compensate, they would remove Awareness from our list of cross-class abilites. Currently, PLD can take foresight from Marauder, but WAR can't take PLD's small defensive CD, Rampart.

2. Holmgang: Compared to PLD's Hallowed Ground, this ability falls WAY short. My proposal to making this ability much more viable, would be to have it lock you at 25%-30% of your maximum HP, rather than 1 HP. Of course to compensate, they would increase the CD of the ability to 5 minutes, instead of 3. With Homlgang leaving you only at 1 HP, it's very hard for healers to respond quick enough to save you from death, making this ability very unreliable, and most times, not worth even using.

3. Bloodbath: I feel like this ability could really use a buff. In it's current state, it's not very effective, even as a small CD. In single-target situations, you'll be lucky to heal more than 800 HP throughout it's 30 second duration. That's less than cross-classed Second Wind. I propose they increase the healing to 35% of damage dealt, and increase the CD to 2 minutes, from 1.5 minutes.

4. Berserk: This ability is completely fine, minus one minor detail. For the love of god, please remove the Pacification effect from the end of this ability! Why is it even there to begin with? Sometimes I have to refrain from using this ability, just so i'll be able to time my Inner Beast correctly, or pick up an add when I need to. Nothing sucks worse than wiping your group because you popped one of your cooldowns.

I'm sure some of you will disagree with my propositions, and that's fine. Discuss, revise, correct me, insult me. The choice is yours. Thanks for the read.

I personally miss the ORIGINAL Berserk, for when WAR isn't tanking. You know what I mean, right? ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

I personally miss the ORIGINAL Berserk, for when WAR isn't tanking. You know what I mean, right? ;)

---

Not sure I follow. The wink threw me off even more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raxion

Not sure I follow. The wink threw me off even more.

---

Sorry. I was referring to FFXI's Berserk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

Sorry. I was referring to FFXI's Berserk.

---

I see. I didn't like WAR in FFXI. Too plain and slow-paced for my liking. I played BLU.

Hallowed Ground is the reason people don't want warrior as a mt in t9. So they can safely take the third behemoth's favor. So, all they need to do is make holmgang better.

* Bahamut's

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Hallowed Ground is the reason people don't want warrior as a mt in t9. So they can safely take the third behemoth's favor. So, all they need to do is make holmgang better.

---

Much better. At it's current, Holmgang is all but useless. It might save you in certain clutch situations, but more times than not, you just instantly die when the ability expires. WAR really needs an "oh shit" button like PLDs have. Holmgang sounds good on paper, but in practice, it's extremely lackluster. The self-root pretty much destroys the fact that it has a short CD. Rooting yourself in a bad spot is usually worse than just leaving your life in your healer's hands.

If the target I use holmgang on is immune to the root effect, I shouldn't be rooted by the ability either, I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raxion

Much better. At it's current, Holmgang is all but useless. It might save you in certain clutch situations, but more times than not, you just instantly die when the ability expires. WAR really needs an "oh shit" button like PLDs have. Holmgang sounds good on paper, but in practice, it's extremely lackluster. The self-root pretty much destroys the fact that it has a short CD. Rooting yourself in a bad spot is usually worse than just leaving your life in your healer's hands.

If the target I use holmgang on is immune to the root effect, I shouldn't be rooted by the ability either, I think.

---

Well if healers cant lustrate/bene or even a cure 2/adlo in 6 seconds, aint Holmgang thats the problem ^_^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raxion

If the target I use holmgang on is immune to the root effect, I shouldn't be rooted by the ability either, I think.

---

Personally I think THIS is the crux of the argument in favor of changing it. What good is an "oh shit" button if the target's immune to it?

sure, would like to have war get changes like that, but also pld would need that AoE enmity that War and increase our damage output for all the rest of content outside t9 when we are not tanking...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thalesia

sure, would like to have war get changes like that, but also pld would need that AoE enmity that War and increase our damage output for all the rest of content outside t9 when we are not tanking...

---

Agreed. Warriors can have Rampart when Paladins can have Overpower. ;3

I'll agree on the berserk.
Make it more like the standard FF Berserk.
Super charge everything, give you haste, but limit your skill set.
After it wears off, you're back to normal.
Minute change.
But still would make WAR a little better.
Also, please make bloodbath a trait on a weapon. Would love that. As broken as it would be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyuven

Personally I think THIS is the crux of the argument in favor of changing it. What good is an "oh shit" button if the target's immune to it?

---

Immobilization isn't nearly as bad as the time constraints for Holmgang to register its effect. They need to do what they did with Overpower and make the effect apply sooner. HG and Bene could benefit from a similar change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almalexia

Immobilization isn't nearly as bad as the time constraints for Holmgang to register its effect. They need to do what they did with Overpower and make the effect apply sooner. HG and Bene could benefit from a similar change.

---

Yes please. I've been in situations where neither HG or Benediction saves the tank (because they didn't go through in time) even though both skills go on cd anyway. It's really stupid to burn a skill like that and have it not work. -.-

My thoughts, there are two changes I would like to see. One change, I know the result I want and that's for Foresight. Foresight only effects Physical defence, give WARs a trait so it also effects Magical Defence so you don't get the entire buff from it being cross classed (although it would help derpy-DRG but maybe OP for PLD).

Second, Holmgang. While I can't be too sure on how I would like to see this changed one thing is for sure, the effective time just doesn't compare to that of Hollowedground. I know they aren't the same move but in fairness, they are quite comparable in the sense they are commonly used as a life preserver. For PvP, I would love to see it have a greater range, the root effect I am fine with although due to latency you can screw yourself over because the player you use it on roots to where you are when you press it and you may take a step away at this time, making it useless.
As for bloodbath, I think it's fine as is. Although I would like to see Holmgang perhaps effect self heals only. So maybe just the healing efficiency of everything a WAR has while holmgang is running (inner beast, bloodbath, and storm's path).

Other than that, WAR is fine as is. Although I would love to see Holmgang have a better animation to. Perhaps do somewhat of a whipping animation and have the chain bind around your target

Warrior never really appealed to me either as a job worth levelling or as a tank to heal. They're giant MP sinks as they have almost zero damage mitigation, and sadly the cure boost does little to make them useful against targets which can strip thousands of HP in a single swipe.

Honestly, I think Warriors need a complete overhaul to be useful in the same situations as Paladins currently are. When a warrior takes a big hit, it's the WHM's duty to restore it. When a Paladin takes a big hit, it's the Paladin's duty to fire a cooldown to defend against it. When you can reduce some of the strongest moves in the game to a mere 40% of their original damage it's no surprise that Paladin is the first choice.

Hallowed Ground is NOT the sole reason people choose Paladins. It's great in emergencies and special occasions, but it's overall survivability which makes PLD win in the end.

Giving WAR Rampart would be absurd. I agree that Holmgang as it stands is pretty worthless. Bloodbath is OP when you Overpower a billion mobs and WAR already outclasses PLD for single target healing. Berserk has the pacification debuff because it's a stronger buff than Fight or Flight, part of being a Warrior is knowing how to use Berserk properly.

WARs have been solo tanking T9 for months now. Youtube it.

Warriors do have Rampart. It's called Inner Beast.

WAR not being accepted as MT is a problem with players, not the job. WAR can MT anything just fine. It's actually slightly better DPS-wise to do WAR MT and PLD OT (or WAR/WAR with tank swaps for maximum Unchained/"not-Defiance" uptime).

WAR rocks for t9 solo tanking. IB for every big hit. Solid CDs for every claw. 40+ DPS over a PLD.

In t9 more DPS equals less mechanics equals easier fight.

Warrior is fine as it is, PLD and WAR were not designed to work equally, WAR is superior in many fights, while PLD is superior in many others. However, both can MT any fight just fine.

Holmgang and Hallowed Ground are not only lifesavers, they both have their own utility purposes as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapphic

Well if healers cant lustrate/bene or even a cure 2/adlo in 6 seconds, aint Holmgang thats the problem ^_^

---

Homlgang is indeed the issue. If my healer could have hit me with Lustrate/Bene, what's the point in even popping Holmgang and rooting myself in place for 6 seconds? It's an ineffective cooldown. It mitigates no damage, leaves little to no room for recovery even if used at the right time, and potentially makes a bad situation worse by rooting you in place for 6 seconds.

HG mitigates everything for 10 seconds, without any negative effects attached to it. That's an effective "oh shit" button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sove92

Warrior is fine as it is, PLD and WAR were not designed to work equally, WAR is superior in many fights, while PLD is superior in many others. However, both can MT any fight just fine.

Holmgang and Hallowed Ground are not only lifesavers, they both have their own utility purposes as well.

---

You clearly haven't tried doing MT on T9 with WAR. As I said, I have both jobs at i110, and use both evenly throughout SCoB. No one can deny that PLD is far more effective at tanking T9 than WAR. It's hard enough to get WAR past Ravensbeak. As said earlier in this thread, a WAR simply doesn't have the tools it needs to survive the 3rd stack of Bahamut's Favor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raxion

You clearly haven't tried doing MT on T9 with WAR. As I said, I have both jobs at i110, and use both evenly throughout SCoB. No one can deny that PLD is far more effective at tanking T9 than WAR. It's hard enough to get WAR past Ravensbeak. As said earlier in this thread, a WAR simply doesn't have the tools it needs to survive the 3rd stack of Bahamut's Favor.

---

I never said WAR would be better at tanking T9 than a PLD, but it can be done. I don't know how big the damage increase is but I had to take over at 2 stacks once in STR jewellery. With Inner Beast and Foresight, no problems at all with healers throwing heals between the hits. T9 has been solotanked by a WAR before.

http://youtu.be/mQqKFRClSg4?t=10m33s And this proves your statement completely false. They have no issues at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

I personally miss the ORIGINAL Berserk, for when WAR isn't tanking. You know what I mean, right? ;)

---

I think Marauder having Berserk is a hint to what Marauder's 2nd Job (aka the DPS Job) will be once it is released.

After all each class is planned to have 2 Jobs they will split from.

It won't be a surprise if Marauder's DPS Job is Berserker.

I'd say yes give Warriors access to Rampart and remove the pacification after Berserk cause that really sucks. Warrior is fun to play and a nice change but I feel a lot safer on my Paladin. And yes I use Warrior the way it should be used but even still, Paladin cooldowns mitigate damage better than anything the warrior has up it's sleeve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Hallowed Ground is the reason people don't want warrior as a mt in t9. So they can safely take the third behemoth's favor. So, all they need to do is make holmgang better.

---

Actually, I think Hallowed is the reason that people prefer PLD over WAR for single tank situations. They don't have to care about the third Bahamut's Favor. It's much easier to survive Bahamut's Claw when another tank is there to provoke midway and split the damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raxion

HG mitigates everything for 10 seconds, without any negative effects attached to it. That's an effective "oh shit" button.

---

That's not true. HG will not affect anything that's just plain intended to kill you, such as primal enrages. A particularly easy example to witness is Ramuh Extreme's Shock Strike. Even if you have Surge Protection, you'll still take damage from it while HG is up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuria

Warrior never really appealed to me either as a job worth levelling or as a tank to heal. They're giant MP sinks as they have almost zero damage mitigation, and sadly the cure boost does little to make them useful against targets which can strip thousands of HP in a single swipe.

Honestly, I think Warriors need a complete overhaul to be useful in the same situations as Paladins currently are. When a warrior takes a big hit, it's the WHM's duty to restore it. When a Paladin takes a big hit, it's the Paladin's duty to fire a cooldown to defend against it. When you can reduce some of the strongest moves in the game to a mere 40% of their original damage it's no surprise that Paladin is the first choice.

Hallowed Ground is NOT the sole reason people choose Paladins. It's great in emergencies and special occasions, but it's overall survivability which makes PLD win in the end.

---

Ever since the 2.1 changes, there's one thing that the WAR has always been better at than PLD: Mitigating predictable burst damage. Why? Because Inner Beast has the lowest cooldown of any damage reducing attack in the entire game and a WAR who is actually good at their job can have it up to reduce every spike when they're predictable. Our burst damage attacks in Turn 9 are Ravensbeak and Bahamut's Claw. They are predictable. They are more predictable than Death Sentence, and Inner Beast can be up for them. Every time. If a WAR is getting instagibbed by these attacks and it seems odd that it's happening, it's just a bad tank. You wanna survive the third Bahamut's Favor without HG or Holmgang? Stack Inner Beast and Vengeance. You're now taking 56% damage. You can even use Storm's Path for every one, although I'm not positive how that affects the math. Even if you don't have Vengeance up, WARs have the distinct advantage of never running out of cooldowns when faced with predictable spike damage.

I also heard the "Paladin's can reduce a hit to 40% of its original total." That 40% number comes from a Pally who stacks Shield Oath, Rampart, and Sentinel at the same time. This is something a PLD should never, ever do. For lulz, it looks like the lowest a PLD can get to is about 23% if they have all of those cooldowns up and successfully block with the Noct Shield.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

I also heard the "Paladin's can reduce a hit to 40% of its original total." That 40% number comes from a Pally who stacks Shield Oath, Rampart, and Sentinel at the same time.

---

You should explain this part better before someone doesn't understand that DR is this game is multiplicative and not additive attacks you over it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

That's not true. HG will not affect anything that's just plain intended to kill you, such as primal enrages. A particularly easy example to witness is Ramuh Extreme's Shock Strike. Even if you have Surge Protection, you'll still take damage from it while HG is up.

---

Ok? Not like Holmgang will save you from those either. When comparing the two side by side you don't get to say HG is worse because you'll still die to the same things Holmgang would have died from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaladS

I'd say yes give Warriors access to Rampart and remove the pacification after Berserk cause that really sucks. Warrior is fun to play and a nice change but I feel a lot safer on my Paladin. And yes I use Warrior the way it should be used but even still, Paladin cooldowns mitigate damage better than anything the warrior has up it's sleeve.

---

Hey Calad! I need to make my way back to Cerberus :P been so busy on Odin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Ok? Not like Holmgang will save you from those either. When comparing the two side by side you don't get to say HG is worse because you'll still die to the same things Holmgang would have died from.

---

Holmgang is inferior to Hallowed Ground when it comes to defense, I don't think anyone has a question there. But if you are using Holmgang and Hallowed Ground solely as a panic button, you are doing it wrong. Both have their own utility purposes as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sove92

Holmgang is inferior to Hallowed Ground when it comes to defense, I don't think anyone has a question there. But if you are using Holmgang and Hallowed Ground solely as a panic button, you are doing it wrong. Both have their own utility purposes as well.

---

The best use for Holmgang atm is to pull a Golem away from the center during phase 2 in T9, or as an insurance policy on the last Dreadnaught in T8. More times than not, by the time you pop Holmgang to react to damage, you still die due to the effect not becoming active until after the animation finishes. That's a problem PLD has with HG as well, but they're at least fortunate enough to have 10 seconds of mitigation, without being rooted in place for the duration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thalesia

sure, would like to have war get changes like that, but also pld would need that AoE enmity that War and increase our damage output for all the rest of content outside t9 when we are not tanking...

---

Deal! Take it. I have no qualms with PLDs having better AoE enmity generation.

just a quick fyi, i dont read every thread, let alone check the forums often, i usually just check the thread and see whats going on...so with that said

i really dont see why some of these changes are needed.

allowing wars to use rampart? warriors are more of a dps tank, able to do damage in comparison to the other tank available, you have a somewhat real dps combo you can use, pld doesnt have this at all. pld was originally designed to be mitigation

fix holmgang? i have to agree with sapphic, longer duration or more hp wont fix the issue if your hp is dropping to that point to begin with

change duration or amount recovered? the first problem is assuming it was supposed to replace a healer, its more of a supplement to what is currently there, not a replacement (kinda like the chocobo system currently)

i do agree they should change with the way berserk worked, like remove pacification when defiance is NOT on, so they can do more damage when they are not in an active tank role

sadly, i have played all the jobs in this game so far, and to be quite fair, as long as you dont have a shitty healer, war is pretty damn good....half these changes just seem unnecessary to me. war can hold hate much easier than a pld, and with the changes they made to inner beast and vengeance, can take damage fairly well (you just need to know when to use your abilities) and with an good healer, wont have much difficulty

and further more, war doesnt need anymore cross class abilities from gladiators till gladiator/paladin gets access to their overpower ability as far as im concerned

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

You should explain this part better before someone doesn't understand that DR is this game is multiplicative and not additive attacks you over it.

---

Sure. Let's start with a simple attack. It's base damage when nothing is done is 1000 damage.

Nothing: 1000 damage.

Let's turn on Shield Oath. This reduces damage by 20%. Alternately, we can say that you're taking 80% damage.

Shield Oath: 1000 x 0.8(SO) = 800 damage.

That was the easy one. Now, let's throw Rampart on too. This also reduces damage by 20%. However, this isn't 20% + 20% = 40%. Again, this is a "take 80% damage" situation.

Shield Oath + Rampart: 1000 x 0.8(SO) x 0.8(R) = 800 x 0.8(R) = 640.

See there? You aren't reducing damage by 40%, it's reduced by 36%. Finally, let's throw Sentinel on there too. This makes you take 60% damage. Additively it would be 20% + 20% + 40% = 80%. Let's see how it really is.

All Three: 1000 x 0.8(SO) x 0.8(R) x 0.6(S) = 800 x 0.8(R) x 0.6(S) = 640 x 0.6(S) = 384.

That is a reduction of 61.6%, so you're taking about 38% damage. Because of the properties of math, it doesn't matter which order this multiplication goes; it'll come out the same.

So, what does this all mean? It means that every cooldown you use is being reduced in effectiveness by any other mitigation currently in effect.

However! All of this is stuff that reduces the amount of damage you take in the end. These do not affect things like Virus, Halone, or Storms Path, which directly work to reduce the base damage of an attack. So, if you put everything together and then throw Storms Path on(-10% monster damage) you'll take 38% of 900 instead of 38% of 1000. Thus, combining both of these methods of reducing that damage number is a good idea.

The only thing I can't explain here is the role of the Defense stat. Could everything be lessened by Defense in the same way everything else affects each other?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by warren-ragnarok

-snip-

---

WAR is far from a "DPS Tank". If you run a meter, you'll see that an equal-geared WAR and PLD do very close to the same DPS, with the WAR pulling slightly ahead. If WAR did a consistent 20% or so more DPS than a PLD, then WAR's lack of mitigation might make a bit more sense, but they don't come anywhere close to that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raxion

WAR is far from a "DPS Tank". If you run a meter, you'll see that an equal-geared WAR and PLD do very close to the same DPS, with the WAR pulling slightly ahead. If WAR did a consistent 20% or so more DPS than a PLD, then WAR's lack of mitigation might make a bit more sense, but they don't come anywhere close to that.

---

Yeah, this. In equal geared situations, if both are in their tanking stance, the WAR will pull ahead, but by less than 10% if I recall correctly. If both are outside of the tank stances, the PLD will actually beat the WAR slightly if Storm's Eye is being applied. So, yeah, they are pretty balanced here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fated

WARs have been solo tanking T9 for months now. Youtube it.

---

Upon searching YouTube, there's only one video of T9 being solo-tanked by a WAR, and that's the one that was linked previously in the thread. I never said it was impossible to tank T9 as a WAR, anything is possible. The fact is, WAR has a much harder time doing it than PLD, and there's really no reason for it.

Just off the top of my head, there's not one encounter in the game that a WAR does better than a PLD, but there are a few fights that WAR is considered the lesser choice. I just don't see why both tank jobs can't be equally viable for every encounter. I love WAR more than any other job in the game. Being forced on to PLD for the harder encounters is just discouraging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raxion

Upon searching YouTube, there's only one video of T9 being solo-tanked by a WAR, and that's the one that was linked previously in the thread. I never said it was impossible to tank T9 as a WAR, anything is possible. The fact is, WAR has a much harder time doing it than PLD, and there's really no reason for it.

Just off the top of my head, there's not one encounter in the game that a WAR does better than a PLD, but there are a few fights that WAR is considered the lesser choice. I just don't see why both tank jobs can't be equally viable for every encounter. I love WAR more than any other job in the game. Being forced on to PLD for the harder encounters is just discouraging.

---

You need to patch your client to 2.3, I think you're stuck on 2.0.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You need to patch your client to 2.3, I think you're stuck on 2.0.

---

You're so funny. I wish I could be cool like you.