Utsusemi?

I found an interesting post on Reddit about the 1 year anniversary video talking about the ninja gameplay clip http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...sary_surprise/

With the information/speculation they received from watching the video, do you guys believe Ninja will have Utsusemi as a possible ninjutsu? I believe its a 20sec cd for Ninjutsu.

With such a short cd and the fact that they are not a tank... if utsusemi was included, it would only be 1 shadow?

If it was included at all it would be designed in such a way so they cannot tank.

it will probably a saving move, allowing them to avoid one attack every 20 second... not enough for be game breaking, since you must use your ninjutsu CD for use it instead of the other skill.
that one of the most interesting part of the ninja, the fact that you will have to choose wisely which spell use.

If they make it an ability, I imagine it would be like Manawall that absorbs 2-3 attacks but has an a very long cooldown.

ehm we have utsusemi already ingame is called manawall :P (2 shadows only tho)

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

it will probably a saving move, allowing them to avoid one attack every 20 second... not enough for be game breaking, since you must use your ninjutsu CD for use it instead of the other skill.
that one of the most interesting part of the ninja, the fact that you will have to choose wisely which spell use.

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Right. It would be a DPS loss to use Utsusemi, but potentially, it could save your life in a dangerous moment. Definitely a tool I would like to have at my disposal as a ninja.

They could have more shadows, but if they don't have any enmity skills via cross class they won't be used as a tank much anyway. They could be useful for fighting ads though.

don't assume any skill will work the same as it does in FFXI. They're probably specifically designing the ability so it can't be used to tank.
Also even if it did work the same, combat is faster paced here than in XI. Being able to take one hit every 20 seconds means "I can survive Red Wedding" rather than "I r t3h l33t n1nj@ tanx"

Cross will likely be PUG and THM.
But I want it to be WAR and GLD for my own evil purposes.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

don't assume any skill will work the same as it does in FFXI. They're probably specifically designing the ability so it can't be used to tank.
Also even if it did work the same, combat is faster paced here than in XI. Being able to take one hit every 20 seconds means "I can survive Red Wedding" rather than "I r t3h l33t n1nj@ tanx"

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Problem is: Unless you're War or Pld you won't ever be a tank in any relevant content in XIV simply due to game design. So Utsusemi could make you untouchable for the whole battle and you'll never be a tank because of the core game design (We know it's a DPS role, and no DPS job gains access to provoke that I've seen.)

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Originally Posted by Tashigi

Cross will likely be PUG and THM.
But I want it to be WAR and GLD for my own evil purposes.

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Personally my vote would be PGL and ARC. Namely because a lot of the ARC skills fit thematically (quelling strikes, venomous bite, etc.) Although who's to say they'll handle distribution the same way they do the current classes?
I'd also be giddy if ROG got a passive trait that allowed their DEX to be used in place of STR for melee damage. After all, it makes ZERO sense for a friggin ROGUE to dump DEX. It's like stock car racing with sherman tanks.

if they decide to not make the ROG use the same armor than the PGL i will be really angry, the armor for the ARC are not good in design for a class jumping around...
and it will means that the ROG will not have acces to the fuma armor from CT... and believe me i will be extremely angry if that happend (and i'm sure i'm not the only one)

other point, the recent video of the anniversary event have show us something important, the class is clearly a melee oriented one. meaning STR is them main stats, no reason to decide suddenly to change how the stats work for... i don't see why actually.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

if they decide to not make the ROG use the same armor than the PGL i will be really angry, the armor for the ARC are not good in design for a class jumping around...
and it will means that the ROG will not have acces to the fuma armor from CT... and believe me i will be extremely angry if that happend (and i'm sure i'm not the only one)

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I can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that anything class specific stays class specific. More than likely they won't share anything with other classes, though pre-50 they'll likely share the same armor type as ARC and PGL. For things post 50, they'll likely be getting their own armor sets.
The only real question is who they'll be sharing their jewelry with.

some armor are shared by the jobs, like BC1, CT and ST armor, dungeon armor too are shared by different class.
the point it's knowing the main stats of the rogue/ninja. by the look of them movement and them armor, the best guess is the same armor than pgl/mnk. since both are melee class based on flexible movement.
do you see the ninja do him movement with the amon armor of the arc/brd of ST? it will look ridiculous.

ps: what bother me a bit it's the lack of information we get recently, indeed we did get some stuff while the gamecon, but most of them information are hold for the fanfest.
however, i can understand that they don't want to give information about the expansion, but next month we are in october, maybe time to give us true information about the class. i'm not the only one thinking to change of main for ninja. and tell us this sort of information can help a looot for prepare to change of main, and i will not talk of people already member of a statics that will put the static on hold for level up them new main and equip it.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

some armor are shared by the jobs, like BC1, CT and ST armor, dungeon armor too are shared by different class.

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The only classes that share gear are the DPS casters, healers, and tanks. All of the melee DPS classes have their own independent gear, and my gut is telling me NIN will be the same, especially since the information we've been given leads me to believe they have different "needs" than MNK does. Namely, the class might end up using DEX over STR, which means they get their own set.

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the point it's knowing the main stats of the rogue/ninja. by the look of them movement and them armor, the best guess is the same armor than pgl/mnk. since both are melee class based on flexible movement.
do you see the ninja do him movement with the amon armor of the arc/brd of ST?

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Again you're assuming they won't have their own set of gear. What better way to revitalize old content than by adding new gear for the new class?

I could see Utsusemi working the way it does in Ragnarok Online (perhaps modified).

http://irowiki.org/wiki/Mirror_Image (RO's Utsusemi)
http://irowiki.org/wiki/Killing_Stroke (Connected skill)

For RO, the first skill gave the ability to dodge the next 1-5 hits you would take, and the 2nd one would hit once, and then again for every dodge you still had left.
For FFXIV, I could see it maybe... increase dodge by 50%, but only stays in effect for 30s, or until youve dodged a few times (maybe 2-3), with a later skill (level 50 one) giving a strong attack that does more, or hits multiple times, based on the remaining dodges.

Dragoon/Monk/Bard either don't use the same main stats or the same type of armor.

Dragoon: Chainmail and STR
Monk: Leather and STR
Bard: Leather and DEX

why i think they will not always have the same armor? because they reused the same skin for many class, like the soldiery bard/monk armor that the same model.
other point, create new content for already outdated content it's bad, it's overtime work for them since they focus mainly to introduce new content. the smartest move is to use already present armor and allows them to share with the other. just reminder, they have all the dungeon with specific armor like BC/BC2/CT/ST/all the dungeon introducing new armor (previous expert one).

indeed they will have special armor for them like the AF, but for the most commons armor, they will share it with someone. like said in the 2.1 quest, they use leather armor. then it will be either bard or monk armor. since they are melee the logical guess is STR. DEX are not more agile and swift, but more precise and accurate. the video of the anniversary event have show us this, they are agile and swift... like the monk.

however, i can't take out this doubt that they will screw us and decide to do the same error than with the monk at the V1 and create a class/jobs that will ask weird stats combinaison (in the V1 monk was STR/INT). hybrid stats are never good, because you can't reach the same level than the other that more specialized.
anyway, the point it's soo far, we know nothing from a class/jobs coming in the next monk. and some question can be already answered but was left out for whatever the reason they have. and i'm scared that we will get the same effect than with the hunt, something that look nice until we try it and see that it's unfinished or unbalanced.

ps: about the cross skill, i dunno, but yeah ARC/PGL seems the safest choice.
and for utsusemi i guess we look too much into it... it will be a saving move nothing more, people must'nt expect to be able to tank as ninja hehe.

Only way I will support this is if it works like Quelling Strikes. "Support your local healers, say NO to Ninja tanks!"

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Again you're assuming they won't have their own set of gear. What better way to revitalize old content than by adding new gear for the new class?

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Since they did say to keep your melee DD gear around.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Developers can be weird. I'm not saying they couldn't include ROG on the same list as MNK, but remember that they could easily be referring to pre-50 and handmade gear. You know, the gear already shared between MNK and BRD? It's kind of a no brainer that NIN will be using that gear as well at least until 50.

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The keyword though is "melee". They literally used the word melee. STR affects physical melee damage.

/10char

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Originally Posted by ispano

Since they did say to keep your melee DD gear around.

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Developers can be weird. I'm not saying they couldn't include ROG on the same list as MNK, but remember that they could easily be referring to pre-50 and handmade gear. You know, the gear already shared between MNK and BRD? It's kind of a no brainer that NIN will be using that gear as well at least until 50.

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The keyword though is "melee". They literally used the word melee. STR affects physical melee damage.

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Assuming they're talking about PRE-level 50 gear, this does not change my original point. All of that leather armor intended for monks has DEX on it to allow it to be used for bards as well. My hunch tells me NIN is going to do SOMETHING with DEX simply because the class or similar classes have always done something with DEX, and for the fact that it would create a balance with all of the different layouts.
Right now: 2 STR, 2 VIT, 2 MND (well, 1 MND 1 PIE but who are we kidding), 2 INT, 1 DEX.
See the gap there? If ROG/NIN was going to be just another melee class, they would've been finished with it already. No, there's something special about it...I'll bet my ugly ass hat on it.

SE was asked this in some interview or live letter and they basically said it's open for them to re-use ability names from previous games. So they might get "utsusemi" but it might end up being completely different. Maybe something like elusive jump without the actual movement? Who knows.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

SE was asked this in some interview or live letter and they basically said it's open for them to re-use ability names from previous games. So they might get "utsusemi" but it might end up being completely different. Maybe something like elusive jump without the actual movement? Who knows.

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That's sort of how I'm looking at it. The NIN jumps backward, drops a chunk of enmity and for visuals leaves a shadow version of themselves in the spot they jumped from for 2 seconds.

Orrrr SE can just make NIN a whole new thing with barely any ties to MNK.
Cuz like they are hyping community with teaser info and the fact they r taking a long time with it.
Cuz its ffxivarr, not ffxiv or ffxi
so all this logical theorycrafting and speculation could end up making us look like goofs when SE drops the nin patch on us lol!

But who knows.....
Anything is game lol

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Orrrr SE can just make NIN a whole new thing with barely any ties to MNK.
Cuz like they are hyping community with teaser info and the fact they r taking a long time with it.
Cuz its ffxivarr, not ffxiv or ffxi
so all this logical theorycrafting and speculation could end up making us look like goofs when SE drops the nin patch on us lol!

But who knows.....
Anything is game lol

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yeah, that the point, that what worry me... but well we can only wait and see so far.

Stoneskin > Phalanx > Utsusemi > Reprisal

Those were the days of the WALL tank. I enjoyed that, but it broke so much stuff. I truely hope it is like Manawall/ward, couple absorbs then gone, with a just-outside-of-effective-reuse cooldown.

I would be not opposed to having a NIN tank. It would bring back a lot of nostalgia for me, without the painful memories of buying ninja tools for it.

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Originally Posted by Synestr

Stoneskin > Phalanx > Utsusemi > Reprisal

Those were the days of the WALL tank. I enjoyed that, but it broke so much stuff. I truely hope it is like Manawall/ward, couple absorbs then gone, with a just-outside-of-effective-reuse cooldown.

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Right, cause manawall is basically ffxi's utsusemi. Easy to balance things when you can just give it a cooldown that'd prevent main tanking with it.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Since they did say to keep your melee DD gear around.
The keyword though is "melee". They literally used the word melee. STR affects physical melee damage.

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It could have been a mistranslation. Could have meant physical DD gear(which would be mnk and brd gear primarily and drg(but that is armour basically)).
I see a lot of people in leviathan go: melee tail ranged head. That is just wrong. It's physical DD tail, magic DD head.

Maybe they will adjust DEX to affect ninjutsu damage, so ROG/NIN may have to balance between STR and DEX.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

It could have been a mistranslation. Could have meant physical DD gear(which would be mnk and brd gear primarily and drg(but that is armour basically)).
I see a lot of people in leviathan go: melee tail ranged head. That is just wrong. It's physical DD tail, magic DD head.

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It doesn't need to be a mistranslation; the question was about levelling. Unless you think he meant DRG gear the gear for levelling has both str and dex.

But it's all a moot point because they've since said "we have it decided (whether it's str or dex), but we may change it". So either situation, whether it's dex or str now, it might end up dex.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

It doesn't need to be a mistranslation; the question was about levelling. Unless you think he meant DRG gear the gear for levelling has both str and dex.

But it's all a moot point because they've since said "we have it decided (whether it's str or dex), but we may change it". So either situation, whether it's dex or str now, it might end up dex.

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Plus there's still the datamined stuff, where the patch that had the test ROG skills had 3 DEX+ traits in the set.

What if they used Utsusemi for DPS purposes as opposed to defence. As Black Mage already has Manawall, making Utsusemi just a copy of that skill would feel like a bit of a let down, but shadowclones are a well known part of Ninjitsu and I feel they should make an appearence in some way.

My idea was that you create 1-2 clones, these clones then mimic your moves for 5 - 10 seconds while also taking any damage that would be taken in that time. (clones will be lost by to any damage taken, 1 hit would equal 1 clone)

This idea would be the crux of ninjas burst dps and would allow for some creative methods to implement it, while also taking into account whether to use it for attack or defence.

Clones would have to be out for a very short time else the burst damage would be op, while the cooldown could be anywhere from blood for blood (80s) to Raging Strikes (180s) depending on how it works best to keep it balanced with other classes.

I don't really see how Ninja could end up tanking if Utsusemi was like XI. If they have Gladiator or Marauder for cross-class skills perhaps, but other than that tanking with a DPS (that isn't Summoner) would just be too annoying to bother pulling off. Everyone would have to watch their enmity to keep the Ninja at top. I find it much more likely that Ninja will take from Pugilist, Lancer, or Archer though. I seem to remember seeing DAT mined skills which gave the impression Ninja would have its own way of recovering TP, so I'd go with Pugilist and Archer.

Utsusemi tanking only worked in XI because the sub Job system was much more fluid; you could give your Paladin Utsusemi, or you could give your Ninja Provoke. Here that isn't the case.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Right, cause manawall is basically ffxi's utsusemi. Easy to balance things when you can just give it a cooldown that'd prevent main tanking with it.

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Actually..Manawall is XI's Mana wall with a slight change:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Mana_Wall

Both are a set amount of hits (In XI, once MP is out you take damage again until the ability wears, which the higher artifact set reduces damage taken so you take less hit on MP) Main difference though, Utsusemi has Enmity changes attached to if you do or don't get hit, manawall in XIV as I seen doesn't really do much aside the added effect of no knockbacks.