Game Devs: Don't make easier challenges, just reward people!

After perusing the forum and seeing both ends of the argument for bahamut's coil and other hard content, it just sort of occurred to me that no one really is concerned with the content itself, but whether they enjoy doing the content and are getting rewarded for the time they have to invest to get that content done. Whether someone is casual and only has limited time to play or is a hardcore player, both sides want to see rewards for their efforts, and there's definitely ways for them to achieve that without having to mess with multiple difficulties and other shinanigans.

What if the fights, instead of rewarding people only if they complete them all the way through, rewarded people by phase? When we run duty roulette, we get myth, gil, and sometimes soldiery and company seals, so why not reward those things for each attempt on a boss depending on how far the group has made it each time?

If the "rewards per phase" were awarded daily, that would at least convince people to give the fights a few runs per day without feeling like they are losing out on something. Heck, right now there isn't much reason why there can't be rewarded gil each time we fight a boss and make it past each phase.

Would this change involve having to tweak gil sinks? Probably, but it's probably a better direction to take for everyone then to try and have to develop multiple versions of the same fight like they are doing in WoW.

In Summary: End game raiding in hardmode is about the journey to victory, not necessarily the victory itself. Just reward people for it and more people will be willing to do it and put up with teaching others how to do it.

I appreciate your suggestion but I like the current format. Its probably not what you are trying to say, but to me it sounds like you want hand outs for your time invested if you can't beat it. Personally I don't like this. You're basically being rewarded for failing.
I can also see people farming gil/myth/sold this way. Do the first phase of t6 or t7, collect reward, wipe, restart. So essentially you are being rewarded for doing nothing. 1 phase on those turns last 1.5-2 mins. Seems pretty broken to me

Why is it always DRGs? ;_; were not all terrible ya know *pouts*

This sounds like a good idea on the surface but would not work and would IMO ruin the game a little. I just got my first Turn 5 kill about 4 days ago and it felt "GREAT!". It felt great because me and my FC put in a ton of work...many nights spending all our playtime and not getting anything else done and failing. The satisfaction comes from putting in the work and then getting your goal accomplished. T5 is kind of a big step in this game for most people. I would like to see some stats on what percentage of people have completed T5...I bet it is much less than half if not 1/4. I think if you take away the way it functions now then you take away the "Rewarding Feeling of Accomplishment" you get when you finally get it down.(Kind of like Titan HM for some people back in the day).

The point isn't to necessarily front load the fights so that they turn into "lets farm phases 1-3 and back out." The idea is that when a group progresses in a fight, they reach milestones and get rewarded for the progress instead of only receiving a reward from completing the whole thing. The rewards would ramp up the further someone manages to make it and culminate in the end with people getting the gear they are actually aiming for.

The point is to make the fight about the journey, because in all honesty end game encounters that involve these dances are about getting better as a group and making it through the trial. Also, this would make fights like Turn 5 coil or Titan EX much more palatable for newcomers and perhaps promote people to stay in and try to learn the fights for a longer period of time. It would also help free up peoples obligation to the grind they must go through outside of the raiding experience, as that is also a barrier to some degree for people.

The best part about being on these forums is the fact people come on and offer their input on the game in constructive ways. It's these kinds of dialogues that help accelerate the betterment of a game, and I hope that these discussions help the developers find a good balance for the game's myriad audience.

Personally, I would like to see if they really raised the 'bar' in terms of these things.

Right now, there is no reason to journey out of your regular group and help new players (such as by duty roulette). There honestly isn't. I keep seeing people who do Duty Finder or roulette and soon as there is a duty that they don't like or someone is new? Boom, they leave. Sometimes it is a group that leaves.

I think we need a few things, honestly. The buffs don't really make the challenges that much easier, they just change how you go about things.

I think what we need is a change up.

For example. If one person has finished the duty before (specifically talking about 50+ content here) and several (at least 3) people have not, then there should be a major loot buff at the end where the players that have beaten the duty before get a significant boost in what they get out of it.

For example: Major free/grand company seal gain, the new currency, the old currencies, etc. This could be significantly higher than the weeklies and S rank hunts so that there is a good reason to try. This way, people have a reason to actually try. For example, at about 5-10 A ranks in an hour being about 200 of the new currency, if there are at least 3 new players in a duty finder party and the person joined as a single person or at most 3 members (tank, healer, dps) (in other words, not premade) they could get 200 of the new currency per new player (aka a minimum of 600 and a maximum of 1400). That plus significant boosts to the other currencies obtained would increase the motivation to help new players in duty finder.

As an additional thought for a bonus, when doing the "daily" roulette bonuses as the adventurer in need. Have it so that any currency bonus resets after 1-2 hours of completion and make it so that there are two roles-one with the full bonus and one that gets half. Abandoning the mission before the first 15 minutes is up (aka. the vote is not availabe) could have an additional penalty of not having the bonus available for 8-24 hours depending on how often they abandoned in a rolling 30 day period (each abandonment before 15 minutes would add 1 hour). In addition, allow for some of the newer currencies to be obtained through the roulette method. This way, people are encouraged to go back and help people and discouraged from just giving up.

In addition, allow experienced players (players that have passed) to join with a loot hunt for a different class when using duty finder. If everyone is experienced, then nothing happens, but if someone is new, the "need" rolls could change so that now they can need on whatever class they opted in as (but not whatever class they joined in as unless it is the same class). This way, people would have reason to stay.

For pre-formed parties, you could potentially allow every player to choose that function since they'd have the party already formed. This function could potentially display as say a small icon in the corner of the class icon. This would allow players to look for items of another class while still playing on a class that they are better at or that is needed.

Another thing that could be done is to have an additional option for a party finder that spans multiple servers. This way, people could arrange to play with a player that they met during a duty or that they know in real life. This party finder option would only allow for duties-no comments and no ability to change from the default join requirements, just a duty name and the party leader and their server. This way, people can actually work together between servers. This would allow for people to do content together.

Maybe even add in bonuses for playing with people that you haven't played with if they make up over half the party (3 in a 4 player, 5 in an 8 player, 13 in a 24 player).

Essentially, make it so that people have reasons to play with people that they aren't familiar with.

I like Ariaandkia's idea. Actually, one of the ways I was thinking they could pull off the reward structure I mentioned earlier is have the bard in Rev. Toll try to make new songs about our exploits defeating primals, only he is trying to make the song and is doing it verse by verse, so we play through each phase of the EX fight piecemeal. Once we get through the entire thing then it's safe to say the person is ready to try the real thing with some degree of confidence.

Why the heck would you do coil for anything but fun progression. You don't even need any of its drops outside of its own instance. My static plans to complete second and third coil, but I really don't think bigger numbers is what's motivating us.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

Why the heck would you do coil for anything but fun progression. You don't even need any of its drops outside of its own instance. My static plans to complete second and third coil, but I really don't think bigger numbers is what's motivating us.

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Exactly, I wouldn't be running coil unless I found it fun. Drops are just a bonus to help us progress. You can spot the attention deficit egotistical raiders from those standing AFK in Revs Toll with weapon drawn.

@ ariaandkia
I like to help new players in roullete, if party is struggling, I take it as an added challenge to get them through to completion which after gives a sense of personal satisfaction and hopefully a good experience for the others. So yes there is reason, maybe not for you, as past experience shows people base opinions on their own outlook, which is not necessarily true for all.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

...What if the fights, instead of rewarding people only if they complete them all the way through, rewarded people by phase? .

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IMO SE already did it, a single Coil was made as different turns.
It was what you was suggesting, otherwise Coil would be a single dungeon.
Sorry to say the idea was meaningless, people have not clear just NEED A CLEAR, not the reward in between. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

@ ariaandkia
I like to help new players in roullete, if party is struggling, I take it as an added challenge to get them through to completion which after gives a sense of personal satisfaction and hopefully a good experience for the others. So yes there is reason, maybe not for you, as past experience shows people base opinions on their own outlook, which is not necessarily true for all.

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What I'm saying isn't about me. If it is me, I'll help without a problem. However, one or two people aren't really going to make a difference in the end.

Think of it this way: People who are helping just for the sake of helping will do so anyways, but they can only help so many people. Encouraging people to help increases the amount of people helped.

For me, I base my opinions on not only my own 'outlook' but what I observe of others around me as well. If I see that I'm enjoying something, but others around me are not, I would try to see if I can get them to enjoy it also. And if I see that something is forming a pattern, I generally will notice. And the pattern I've seen is that people tend to quit in dungeons they don't like or when there is a new player in the party. They often don't even give the new player a chance.

I see the arguments as stupid.

Its like those people who say "I hate people who sell chocobo dyes for 60k SE do something about this"
Though knowing damn well if they had the item themselves would be selling them for the same prices.

Its like hard content people beat it but want it to stay hard though its the ones who beat it to begin with.
then turn around and say SE T9 queque takes to long or not enough tanks or healers.

Flip flopping all over the place.

I think most players actually don't like the journey at all, which is why so few players actually do Coil. They'd love to have the rewards, but can't clear the content so it's ignored by the majority of the playerbase (Especially since alternatives exist that give roughly the same gear).

Conversely, content that sort've serves as a middle ground (Mog EX, Ramuh EX) that is neither optimal in rewards nor easy to clear is pretty much ignored by both Coil and non-Coil focused players.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

I think most players actually don't like the journey at all, which is why so few players actually do Coil.

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Oh I enjoy story I got to T5 I decided to stop.

Repeating a wipe over and over isn't enjoying the story 50+ times some people just don't know how to dodge dive bombs, also panic after big explosion and tornados.

Its a simple fight but then again some people have low Hp which when hit by dive bomb can't cure themselves because by the time a cure is casted another dive bomb hits them.

So you have to dodge it 100% or die.

after you die to many times you lose interest and people who rushed ahead suffer, because some people cant beat content after T5 but some do and leave those people behind they get stuck and lose interest.

You can only die so much before the content becomes boring and you just say to yourself "well items will be out dated soon anyways" might as well wait for next patch.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Oh I enjoy story I got to T5 I decided to stop.

Repeating a wipe over and over isn't enjoying the story 50+ times some people just don't know how to dodge dive bombs, also panic after big explosion and tornados.

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Ah, well this I can agree with. I don't agree with SE locking story progression behind the hardest content in the game. It's just uhm..well it's a really odd thing to do. Ideally they should make a story mode coil similar to how each primal has a story-mode version with no drops, and then make the version we have now co-exist.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Exactly, I wouldn't be running coil unless I found it fun. Drops are just a bonus to help us progress. You can spot the attention deficit egotistical raiders from those standing AFK in Revs Toll with weapon drawn.

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No, that is human nature. People who are happy or proud over something want to show it.

How do you take that for egotistical?

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Originally Posted by Amberion

No, that is human nature. People who are happy or proud over something want to show it.

How do you take that for egotistical?

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You can be happy and proud all you like. but some people don't like bragging and showing, if you have to display it for everyone to see, then it just shows you trying to prove something that isn't needed.

People were doing that back in 2.0 when they 1st got relic, you saw a bunch of people showing off in rev toll, AFK. In a sense it's bragging without words.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

You can be happy and proud all you like. but some people don't like bragging and showing, if you have to display it for everyone to see, then it just shows you trying to prove something that isn't needed.

People were doing that back in 2.0 when they 1st got relic, you saw a bunch of people showing off in rev toll, AFK. In a sense it's bragging without words.

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That is not bragging any more then.. well... players standing on roofs, sitting on benches or well anything someone does while AFK. Or are you saying that just because they had a weapon you, or someone else had, that they must be bragging?

Also, people went AFK in toll not to show off, but because there was nothing to do in the game once you hit 50, besides standing there and queuing up. There was a crapload of players AFKing there.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

That is not bragging any more then.. well... players standing on roofs, sitting on benches or well anything someone does while AFK. Or are you saying that just because they had a weapon you, or someone else had, that they must be bragging?

Also, people went AFK in toll not to show off, but because there was nothing to do in the game once you hit 50, besides standing there and queuing up. There was a crapload of players AFKing there.

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You're either trying to hard or you're missing the point, but i can't teach you how to read between the lines, but the people who do this know full well what they are doing.

Do i also have to teach you the difference between actual AFK and sitting in plain view, with your relic weapon drawn?

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Exactly, I wouldn't be running coil unless I found it fun. Drops are just a bonus to help us progress. You can spot the attention deficit egotistical raiders from those standing AFK in Revs Toll with weapon drawn.

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Nothing wrong with that. Stop being jealous.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

No, that is human nature. People who are happy or proud over something want to show it.

How do you take that for egotistical?

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Let me fill you in on this tiny little detail, It doesn't matter what gear you collected, I don't check anyone with new gear or in awe about it.

So if your frame of mind is OMG NOW IM GONNA show off, just remember nobody really cares, they are too busy doing glamour to care about what your crap looks like.

I am not trying to be mean, I just don't think anyone gives a damn if you got something nobody seen before, because in patch notes they are shown its not something new if people have seen it and know where to get it.

Now if I found a monster nobody knew about and it dropped a sick sword with super stats and on fire that glowed bright as the sun and nobody knew how to get it.

I think some people might actually turn their heads.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Let me fill you in on this tiny little detail, It doesn't matter what gear you collected, I don't check anyone with new gear or in awe about it.

So if your frame of mind is OMG NOW IM GONNA show off, just remember nobody really cares, they are too busy doing glamour to care about what your crap looks like.

I am not trying to be mean, I just don't think anyone gives a damn if you got something nobody seen before, because in patch notes they are shown its not something new if people have seen it and know where to get it.

Now if I found a monster nobody knew about and it dropped a sick sword with super stats and on fire that glowed bright as the sun and nobody knew how to get it.

I think some people might actually turn their heads.

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I'ma piggy back(agree) on this. From what I seen is when people openly admire someone or even with my set up (see sig) appreciate well set up glamour set over All HA set (visually). Not saying all, but a good chunk of people. Like we seen them in Mor Dhona, then started to see more and more and more then it became not commeon, but overly seen. A well put together glamour set, you get people complimenting that. If that's what a person is into. Me personally, I like to match up near balance and perfection.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

I think most players actually don't like the journey at all, which is why so few players actually do Coil. They'd love to have the rewards, but can't clear the content so it's ignored by the majority of the playerbase (Especially since alternatives exist that give roughly the same gear).

Conversely, content that sort've serves as a middle ground (Mog EX, Ramuh EX) that is neither optimal in rewards nor easy to clear is pretty much ignored by both Coil and non-Coil focused players.

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I actually lost interest in Coil because there wasn't any story at all in T1-4 and I found the fights to be utterly boring. I only tried to give a shot to T5 3 days ago and it's the first time I've liked how a fight was designed and decided to beat it and start the SCOB.

My interest in coil is purely storyline, which there isn't much of to be honest.

The biggest problem with coil is finding the right group of people to actually run through the content. As countless people will attest to, trying to run it with a PUG is pointless so you're basically forced to try and get a static, or have a decent linkshell for grouping. The problem then becomes whether or not you play online at the same time as your friends so you can actually participate in these raids.

For me, time is a critical factor. I play at odd times of the day, when I find a spare moment between looking after kids and keeping house. I'm not always online when others are, so I'm mostly reliant on the duty finder or dumb luck to get into a coil run. This isn't great for learning the necessary strategies, nor is it particular great at pairing you up with a competent team.

I don't have a problem with coil for that though, as I feel it's just catered towards a different type of player. It's not aimed at casuals like myself, and that's fine, I just hope there will still be content in the game for us casuals to enjoy in a years time.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

You're either trying to hard or you're missing the point, but i can't teach you how to read between the lines, but the people who do this know full well what they are doing.

Do i also have to teach you the difference between actual AFK and sitting in plain view, with your relic weapon drawn?

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You are not just reading between the lines, you are making up an entire story.

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Let me fill you in on this tiny little detail, It doesn't matter what gear you collected, I don't check anyone with new gear or in awe about it.

So if your frame of mind is OMG NOW IM GONNA show off, just remember nobody really cares, they are too busy doing glamour to care about what your crap looks like.

I am not trying to be mean, I just don't think anyone gives a damn if you got something nobody seen before, because in patch notes they are shown its not something new if people have seen it and know where to get it.

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True, most might not care. But check the hatred/dislike here in this thread and you see people that seem to care too much.

It's like those that take pictures during vacation/events or whatever, and then show them to all their friends and family. They are not doing it for bragging.

How abooooouuut...

We loot-lock T6-9 so that only your first clear every week gives you HA, but you are free to enter T6-9 all you want every week and you get a reward for clearing it again beyond the Sol. The reward table could be each of these things, and receiving one in any turn does not exclude receiving another:

20% - Potion that increases spirit bonding by 200% and allows spirit bonding on any level mobs for 10 minutes
20% - 25,000 gil
20% - 10 Ventures
20% - 50 Allied Seals
20% - Random Tier IV materia
2% - Sands of Time
2% - Oil of Time
2% - Unidentified Allagan Tomestone

If it is someone's first time completing the Turn, the following drop rates are modified:
10% - Sands of Time
10% - Oil of Time
10% - Unidentified Allagan Tomestone

EDIT: To Be Clear - this would encourage to people who know the fights cold and are farming them on Tuesday night to re-enter the turns with people who don't know the fights as well, or don't have statics, or haven't cleared. It should encourage learning, as the best rewards (10% rates of UAT/Oils/Sand) come from helping those who haven't cleared.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

EDIT: To Be Clear - this would encourage to people who know the fights cold and are farming them on Tuesday night to re-enter the turns with people who don't know the fights as well, or don't have statics, or haven't cleared. It should encourage learning, as the best rewards (10% rates of UAT/Oils/Sand) come from helping those who haven't cleared.

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the counter argument to this would be run selling, which personally is fine with me.

Sometimes it feels like people say, "NO ONE CARES IF YOU HAVE GOOD GEAR. STOP SHOWING OFF!" but deep inside they're boiling with rage and jealously. I have HA and still like to admire other peoples HA. I "awe" at some of the drops my static hasn't gotten yet and get bit jealous. *shrug*

To the OP:

It's nice to see that people are still trying to come up with solutions. However, I personally think the only solution is to make it socially acceptable to ask people to put effort into getting something they want. Right now that's considered "elitism" by some. If you can't find a good pug, keep looking. They're out there. I had to PUG for at least three or four weeks because my static took a break. It opened my eyes a bit. I ALWAYS found clear groups. Always. So instead of getting upset about coil being "hard" I think people should just put energy into finding or building good pug groups and learning the content. Plus there is SO MUCH to do in this game, you don't "need" to have or do everything.

@OP; Sounds to me like you did an expert roulette and got nothing but crafting mats. The only reward I want to see is set item drops in boos loots similar to CT/ST in dungeons since I've done countless dungeons where the all I get is crafting mats it can really turn you off the entire experience. Even if its for glamour people will run dungeons if they know they can farm it for what they want.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Let me fill you in on this tiny little detail, It doesn't matter what gear you collected, I don't check anyone with new gear or in awe about it.

So if your frame of mind is OMG NOW IM GONNA show off, just remember nobody really cares, they are too busy doing glamour to care about what your crap looks like.

I am not trying to be mean, I just don't think anyone gives a damn if you got something nobody seen before, because in patch notes they are shown its not something new if people have seen it and know where to get it.

Now if I found a monster nobody knew about and it dropped a sick sword with super stats and on fire that glowed bright as the sun and nobody knew how to get it.

I think some people might actually turn their heads.

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Just because you don't care does not mean other people don't

I rather enjoy looking at other players and their sick gear.

The three reasons I raid are:
1) Grouping with people I've grown to know and trust (something I'm having a very hard time doing in this game for some reason).
2) Seeing the story.
3) Preparing for the next content patch (gearing)

To be honest, the worst parts of this game so far have been the relic grind and hunts due to one not being a true option for item progression, yet tricking people into thinking it is, and the other creating resentment toward different players. Also, I am not a fan of how overly important accuracy becomes in progression, to the point where it trumps so many other secondary stats. It just focuses more attention onto the gear instead of the quality of the player.

But I don't resent those that want to run for the gear. Their objectives and my own are not in conflict with one another unless a major skill gap is present. If I find myself to be the one with the skill gap, the results are rather obvious (they dump the guy "holding them back"), whereas the reverse is not true. Unfortunately, it feels like most raiders are in it for the gear more than the people, which isn't that good. As a result, I'm in support of the training modes in order to help rectify the skill gaps at the very least (and hopefully convert some of them from pure gear grinders to true team players with time).

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

IMO SE already did it, a single Coil was made as different turns.
It was what you was suggesting, otherwise Coil would be a single dungeon.
Sorry to say the idea was meaningless, people have not clear just NEED A CLEAR, not the reward in between. ^^;

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That's not what I meant at all. I mean breaking up the dance into parts and getting rewarded for completing each phase, not necessarily the whole fight, and introduce this as a training mode via the bard in Mor Dhona.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Let me fill you in on this tiny little detail, It doesn't matter what gear you collected, I don't check anyone with new gear or in awe about it.

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Hmmm.. I think it's good you said "I". People generally can appreciate new gear when a patch dropped recently. It's not so much about how it looks, more the story behind it "he was in turn 12 man, they beat it!" I personally like to see new gear wether it's on me or on someone else. It also helps with glamour since gear can look so different when it's actually on me (or somebody else).

It's nice that SE gave an opportunity to let everyone prepare for 2.4. However, I do appreciate someone's efforts obtaining HA a little more than someone who would be full soldiery i110. xD