BRD vs Caster

What do you think about the pvp balance between BRD and casters?


what really bugs me about Archer in this game is (as a BLM, CNJ etc.).. that they just can spam every attack instant and unruptable "on the run" with nice damage and on a very high distance as well. it works like a melee damage class but on distance with cc abillities.
In other words you could say that it is almost like a drg/mnk ++ (plus plus... plus) with the abillity to perform high physical damage on range.
As a BLM/conjurer/sch its mostly impossible to win against a brd in 1vs1 without having your pvp skill ready.



My suggestion of rupts by arrows (and maybe spells, too) would be like this:


High Distance (15y) -> 35%/45% rupt chance
Middle Distance (10y) -> 65% rupt chance
Close Distcance (5y) -> 100% rupt chance


like with the damage which is like the other way around:
High distance -> 100% Damage
Middle Distance -> slight lower damage
Close Distance -> low damage





Its not fair in regards to Melee Damage Dealers who have to get into close range and in Regards to all casters which are 100% rupted on distance by brds. I dont know how to solve this problem, but i think there is definatley a big discrepancy.

i am okay with melees rupting anyone easily, they have to get very close to the target in order to do so.. but brds having 100% instant skills + range + good damage + unruptable goes too far for me personally..

they have skills like silence for that.

No opinion on the interrupt mechanic suggestion, but I just want to point out that the damage modifier is...

Far: Low
Mid: Norm
Close: Low

You don't because this is how it works here.

Casters don't get to trigger happy because of Bard
Bards don't get to trigger happy because of Meele.
Meeles don't get to trigger happy because of Caster

My suggestion? Try to play other jobs and see this PvP from their perspective of view. Don't get trapped into a tunneled vision world.

This is also a can of worms you are trying to open. You will find it amused that even when Bard is in correct distance, their shots are still lower damage than Paladin's shield throw and Warrior's throw weapon.

Ive never lost one vs one to a bard if we start at full health. Bards are mosquito's of front lines, weak and annoying. Stop trying to do normal rotations on them, either swiftcast thunder, lethargy and stick lose spamming or swift bliz and chase them spamming scathe. Blms are very mobile and scathe does more damage then those measly arrows.

Also, stop abbreviated random words because you don't feel like spelling it out.

LOL, bards are definitely not weak and measly. I play all roles in Frontlines, and I enjoy bard most. I've killed skilled healers and tanks myself on bard, not to mention casters, dragoons and monks. I've also been killed my fair share of times as well.

While the OP may not think it's fair for bards to be able to move and interrupt, bards do do less damage per attack than casters. Plus, bards don't have the ability to stun or sleep every 10 seconds. Not to mention, if you need to run fast, your TP is immediately drained to 0. I think those are some pretty fair trade offs.

Myself i much prefer going in as Bard because of mobility and yes we can do lots of damage. However i have died many times from summoner's, which feel rather powerful in frontlines.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

While the OP may not think it's fair for bards to be able to move and interrupt, bards do do less damage per attack than casters.

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Not really.. firstly casters do have lots less HP... secondly arrow attacks are instant while a caster has to stand still and cast for about 3 secs (brds can do about 2 arrows in that time). im talking about 1vs1 here. then its "rupt rupt" for most of the time. of course i use swift cast etc.. and scathe is not more powerful than an arrow (100 dmg potency vs heavy shot 150 dmg potency)... + we have less HP and will most likely die faster.

of course i also killed bards in 1vs1... but i dont have the feeling that this is really balanced.. because it mostly takes you all of your special abillities (even pvp) in order to do so (100% unruptable buff, swift cast etc.).. which i think.. cant be..

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Casters don't get to trigger happy because of Bard
Bards don't get to trigger happy because of Meele.
Meeles don't get to trigger happy because of Caster

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not really..

bard sees melee -> starts shooting/running... -> if he is getting to close -> shadowbind.

melees deal with problems like "out of range, out of range".. when the target is running away. brd does not have these probs.
i dont see why a brd should be afraid of a melee more, than an other archer..

and when melee chars get close to casters they shouldnt fear them either.

I find Bards rather annoying. Their damage isn't reduced enough to warrant them being able to spam damage 100% of the time. Casters get interrupted, melee need to be in range, Brds have no restrictions. Just slightly lower damage. I'd trade lower damage on magic spells if I get hit while casting with being interrupted by bards. SMN is strong but it has no burst damage until all its buffs are up and also it's been gimped enough by SE. I want Miasma's(1 not 2) weight effect back :(

Someone mentioned that Melee trumps Brds.... Well melee will trump anything they get their hands on assuming they don't become immobilized. If ignored, casters are the most dangerous, but with even one person on us, we have very limited options lol. Melee have several abilities/items to recover TP while Sprinting so they can get around the range issue.

Brds can spam til they're blue in the face. Casters can be messed with by anyone with a brain. Run of of spell range, interrupt them. Be in AoE to build Sleep/Bind resistance quickly. I like more Equanimity-like buffs, there is no need to nerf anyone really.

It's ok though, we can still do wicked damage when nobody Os targeting us. /eyeroll

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

I find Bards rather annoying. Their damage isn't reduced enough to warrant them being able to spam damage 100% of the time. Casters get interrupted, melee need to be in range, Brds have no restrictions. Just slightly lower damage. I'd trade lower damage on magic spells if I get hit while casting with being interrupted by bards. SMN is strong but it has no burst damage until all its buffs are up and also it's been gimped enough by SE. I want Miasma's(1 not 2) weight effect back :(

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I also play SMN i would say you way better have a chance against brd, because you have at least instant dot, ruinra and your pet.. BLM is f*** up in most situations... because ALL of your spells, except the weak scathe require that you stand still + have a cast time + are 100% ruptable easily. so you are really slow ..the chances of being interrupt are 100% if a bard or melee is on you.

im okay with melees, because they have to get close enough to you, and run after you..i have the chance to snare them. as blm you are mostly f*** up against every class in 1vs1... if you dont have your pvp skill rdy (most of the time). i stick to my opinion concerning bard personally..

because he just has to shoot at me with regular attacks in order to make 80% of my skills useless. spam spam, rupt, rupt.


Especially in Wolves Den it can become a nightmare, if 1 or 2 persons are focussing you. you cant do nothing but running... and from time to time try to sleep them with swift cast... a brd isnt impressed by that, he can shoot and run..

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Originally Posted by Maero

Myself i much prefer going in as Bard because of mobility and yes we can do lots of damage. However i have died many times from summoner's, which feel rather powerful in frontlines.

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naw u died many times from smns because 1) your healer didn't heal you/didn't heal you enough or 2) you ran after the smn and didn't stick around your healer so you left it open season for him to merk u. all dps are squishy in this game. even a healer can take out a solo brd. i can't see a brd out-dpsing a smn tho simply because of the pet+rouse+Fester+Enkindle+ROFL combo. you have to remember, a smn can heal himself, you can't. so don't put yourself in a bad situation.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Im talking about 1vs1 here.

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There is nothing to talk about if you want to overpower Bard in 1 v 1 isnt it? No PvP is balance at 1 v 1. Bard always lost to MNK and DRG in 1 v 1. If a MNK cant handle a Bard in 1 v 1, it is the player issue. Trust me, both MNK and DRG have enough gap closers to shut down the Bard. I can provide you serveral videos to show it if you need it.

Of course you are ok with the meeles, because the caster are their counter.

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Originally Posted by Gor

naw u died many times from smns because 1) your healer didn't heal you/didn't heal you enough or 2) you ran after the smn and didn't stick around your healer so you left it open season for him to merk u. all dps are squishy in this game. even a healer can take out a solo brd. i can't see a brd out-dpsing a smn tho simply because of the pet+rouse+Fester+Enkindle+ROFL combo. you have to remember, a smn can heal himself, you can't. so don't put yourself in a bad situation.

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Well that has been a problem going in with random people, adder just has not been organized, like all over the place and yeah more then likely it was because of a whm healing them as well perhaps.
As far as melee trump in pvp, maybe so but all the instances i have done against monk or drg say otherwise, only time i truly do loose is if someone from their team would stun lock me. That or perhaps they did not know their class, who knows. I just go in as what i prefer for pvp and that's that. I do have blm, smn and drg i can try as well

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Originally Posted by Gor

naw u died many times from smns because 1) your healer didn't heal you/didn't heal you enough or 2) you ran after the smn and didn't stick around your healer so you left it open season for him to merk u. all dps are squishy in this game. even a healer can take out a solo brd. i can't see a brd out-dpsing a smn tho simply because of the pet+rouse+Fester+Enkindle+ROFL combo. you have to remember, a smn can heal himself, you can't. so don't put yourself in a bad situation.

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a smn cant heal (with his sucky physic) while you are shooting at him.. b he just makes some decent damage, if you have eaten all dots before.

When I do frontlines on bard I tend to have more trouble with summoners and healers 1v1. I would have to say my success is much better against black mages though. On melee, kind of depends where our respective cool downs are.

Don't forget that bards have a pretty useless limit break for pvp.

Why not just remove full interrupts on damage entirely?

I just reached 50 (my first, WHM), and I am incredibly dissapointed with how PvP handles for casters. I understand we have abilities like Swiftcast, and equanimity. That is not enough though. If any single physical damage dealer decides to jump on a WHM they win. Period.

This is the first game mechanic that I feel the Dev team went full retard on. This blows my mind, considering Yoshi. P was a big PvPer.

Why did we not just use the usual pushback mechanic? Take damage, pushes back your cast time making the spell last longer. Can still interrupt, just have to use stuns/skills that shut someone down.

Thoughts?

I agree. Instead of getting interrupted after getting hit, it should slow your cast or reduce the damage of that spell. As BLM, I HATE Brds on me lol as SMN though, Brds are cake. Swiftcast Bio2, Bio, Egi, then drop Virus on em, with Misty Veil to reduce their range, and basically spam Energy Drain for Damage+Heals, Ruin2 and just draw it out lol

While yes melee do need to be up close to do damage, Shoulder Tackle and Jump really do help alleviate that issue. Ever since update I find it increasingly difficult to best melee if I get caught off guard. They are on you too soon with those abilities for you to make any proper distance to safely DPS, and now their damage is nuts lol.

While we're on the subject, it really sucks that SMN is the only job without any personal defensive buff, excluding Titan lol. It'd be nice to have an ability that directs all attacks aimed at the SMN onto Titan or something similar for say 10 seconds? I'm down for that.

Bards are noob friendly, casters aren't.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Of course you are ok with the meeles, because the caster are their counter.

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What stops a MNK or DRG from destroying a caster as opposed to a BRD? I used to be able to sometimes fend myself against melee as SMN if I decided to duke it out instead of bind and run. Now though, not nearly as often. BLM has weight effect which would help tons if it weren't for Jump and Shoulder Tackle lol

I'm trying to ask since apparently people know how to play casters/BLM better than I do in Wolves' Den / Frontlines.

But how is a BLM supposed to not get wrecked by a bard / melee dps?

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Originally Posted by ExKage

But how is a BLM supposed to not get wrecked by a bard / melee dps?

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PvP in this game is widely based on the team itself unless you are considering people who superhero themselves into the enemy army. Black mages are a very dangerous threat if they can not be interrupted and require help from healers, just as healers require 'peels' or people to pull others off them in order to allow them to support the party.

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Originally Posted by ExKage

I'm trying to ask since apparently people know how to play casters/BLM better than I do in Wolves' Den / Frontlines.

But how is a BLM supposed to not get wrecked by a bard / melee dps?

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Sleep and Blizzard help. Also that ability that reduces skill recast by 50% is great so cap that. Cap Purify, and also Equanimity. If Equanimity isn't up, just run out of range from them, most of the time they will stop following u quickly so you can come back and then get rid of em.

Also while some may disagree, I tend to pick off DPS, namely Melee while the rest of the PT goes for healers, depending on how many healers they've got. It helps two ways. It gives the healers yet another target to have to heal, so they have to choose, and also it gets rid of DPS to have less hitting your healer.

It's a fair trade-off in my mind. BLM and SMN bursts damage are op as hell if left alone. If your alliance is letting one of them free cast, then there's something wrong with that group. BRD's keep them in check while still damaging. It piles up and can easily irritate any casters with Equanimity in cooldown. Ruin II and Scathe aren't as good as a BRD with all his skills available.

Even though Bard is my main with PVE, for PVE I enjoy SMN the most (but usually have to swap to SCH because of a shortage of healers). As a SMN/SCH in Frontlines I love going up against Bards, they make the best suicide bombs!

I also really enjoy summoner in Frontlines. I have more instant cast abilities than blm, so I can run a lot more often and use Ruin II, Energy Drain, Fester if DOTS are up, and Bio. Plus, the pet keeps attacking even while I'm on the move. Plus, with the lack of sleep and Flare, I'm less of a target than black mages are.

The pet is the only thing that can get annoying. Garuda just loves to follow my target even if they run away. Even pressing heel, she'll come back and heel for a bit, but then fly away again. So, just be prepared to Swift/re-summon her often.

I've yet to have issues with Bards in FL. They're annoying, but Sleep usually fixes that most of the time or, Sure/Swift a Stoneskin. Since their damage is pretty low, it gives me a few seconds to free cast as long as I'm not getting hit by others.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

and scathe is not more powerful than an arrow (100 dmg potency vs heavy shot 150 dmg potency).

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and i thought that brd's 60 potency is less then scathes 100
hint: just stay at meele range :P

I don't really think there is much of an imbalance to be honest. As a poster previously stated the PVP game is reliant on teamwork to a degree, tanks and melee DPS can stun or peel marks off a healer or caster which is important to let others do their jobs in PVP.

I usually roll blm for frontlines mostly and switch to whm occasionally. BRDs are annoying and I avoid them and try to focus them down if there is no healer to attack, but I feel I have plenty of tools to deal with them. Scathe, phantom dart aetherial burst, equanimity, manawall, swift cast, and aetherial manipulation are all valuable tools if used properly. I think the blm has plenty of tools to allow you to focus a bard down quickly or to get a spell out or quickly move away to break sight with them.

I have come to realize my biggest annoyance in Frontlines is dragoons. I can't stand them. It seems every move they have stuns you. While everyone is going for the healers, I tend to go and knock out the dragoons first.

why are we still having this discussion?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ard-and-Archer

out of all the classes in PVP, I think it's clear that Bards have the most variation to their state inside and outside of PVP.

Are you saying that this damage reduction isn't enough? Like, max 60% for half the potential shooting ranges? SE has done their best to cripple Bards as much as possible already, thanks to the whining. Now, we even have a useless, un-unique ability [Blast Shot] skills that essentially has a useless upgrade (really whats the point of upgrading damage when it only deals 40%?)

If more people would play Paladins, Warriors or Monks, Bards would be easier to kill. The problem isn't the class at the moment, it's the mentality of people playing.

It's like in League when you have a terrible party make up and your team is whining about how they're loosing.

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Bards have the most variation to their state inside and outside of PVP.

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Casters have to fight for every cast, tanks function as DPS and have their tanking ability cut down to the point where they hardly represent tanks anymore. But of course bard whos still capable of dishing out massive dps is the most affected because you need to use your brain a little more than before.

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Now, we even have a useless, un-unique ability [Blast Shot]

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Yeah, an aoe knockback that can both peel for you and your healer (ontop of your other peel) that can also be used offensively in conjunction with silence to almost completly null out equanmilty'd caster is really useless ;);)

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SE has done their best to cripple Bards as much as possible already, thanks to the whining. Now, we even have a useless, un-unique ability [Blast Shot] skills that essentially has a useless upgrade (really whats the point of upgrading damage when it only deals 40%?)

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Do you have any idea how overpowered bards would be without the damage modifier? You need to actually think about how you apply damage, rather than just mindlessly spam from max range safety. Bards have the absolute easiest time out of everysingle class at applying damage ontop of solid burst. Being able to apply full damage from max range, and interrupt every caster AND have silence on top would put bards into an uncontested god-tier status. As it stands now, good bards in prologoned matches in WD reach insane DPS... Ausar reborn sometimes doubles great dragoon/monks damage. This is due to the ease they have with applying damage. You make it sound like bards are useless, lol.

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Originally Posted by Tsuole

why are we still having this discussion?

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You can not stop whinners from whinning, because it is their duty. It is not they are lacking ability to understand, it is fact that they refuse to understand because they are trying to get rid something they are unable to handle. The OP of this thread will not (and not willing to) beleive any statement from Bard players, because it is not what he is looking for. He is looking for support form his fellow casters.

There is not a lot PvP theorycraft you can find on this fourm, but I will share you some insights I found on JP fourm that you may want to looking forward to. They are more concern about Bard/Archer mechanics post 2.35 patch and provide a lot feedbacks. Here is some issues they have discovered:

1. Shots are not 100% interrupting caster's casting. It is only your auto attack that has 100% interruption rate. They are trying to get a solid confirmation by reporting this as a bug and see S/E response.

2. Your accuracy will impair by the direction of target is facing. You have high chance to miss when the target is facing you and wont miss when target is not looking at you. Your accuracy also impairing by the distance, higher chance to miss over 20M. Not confirmed, but I personally wont let my accuracy drop below 400.

3. Manasong is an useless PvP action. It has no practical use.

They are also making a lot suggestions in regard to manasong. Some intersting idea including switching it with Divine Breath or turn it into AOE HoT action. I will update here is I see any GM replied.

For conlusion, just dont waste your time to reply this type of topic. They will just give you some baloney statements like good bard can do this or good bard can be op etc...... Just let it go and have a laugh while you reading this kind of silly topic.

I have a solution:

I usually go in a group, with voice chat. If a Bard is on me, I call it out and they are on the floor in no time.

As a caster, the best thing to have are tanks/dps rdy to assist you at a moments notice.

Its sort of common sense that a caster with no support is just a sitting duck.

Bards are only annoying if your team allows them to live.

I've yet to lose to a BRD 1v1 as a SMN or SCH. I could see BLM having a harder time but SC Fire III and you'll take off half of their HP.

if you can bait out the silence theres little reason for you to lose vs a bard as summoner

Any class that can kill me needs to be nerfed.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

I hope this isn't directed at my last comment. Because everything I've said is 100% correct, and if you're going to sweep it aside and call it baloney without even a hint of an argument, thats nothing more than childish trolling.

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Well, my target audience is those who dont undertand Archery mechanic and claims they know everything about it. I am getting annoyed after reading this thread and that other one:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-with-pushback

There is simply no point to explain those who are not seeking for advice but seeking for support for his own personal difficulty. In regard to you comment....... to be honest, beside of have an iffy feeling after seeing you are using scoreboard as a measurement, I have nothing against most of it. Not sure where do you see me as trolling tho, I did provide three points that probably a lot of people not aware of it (probably including a lot of Bard players).

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beside of have an iffy feeling after seeing you are using scoreboard as a measurement,

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The scoreboards aren't particularly useful in determining a players worth, as there are far too many variables, that and a lack of stats. However, they are quite useful in determining class trends. As these trends do exists and they are easily noticeable.

Such as: (always need to be good players)

SMN: insane DPS and kills in WD/FL = bane is godly

SCH: outdamaging melee DPS in WD = bane is godly

SCH: Teams facing scholar usually have less DPS output = scholars teammates mitigate more DPS than a WHM's teamates

BRD: Outdamaging DPS classes in WD in prolonged matches = Their ease of applying damage is a massive advantage, that is often overlooked.

These trends do exists, and there is nothing wrong with bringing them into an argument. There is always exceptions to every rule however.

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Not sure where do you see me as trolling tho

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If it wasn't directed at me nvm.

blm vs. brd 1v1- scathe him down untill your hp is about 30%, sleep him cure/physic couple times, wake him up with fire3. at this point u should be about 80% him under 30. then finish with scathes weave in lethargy and sprint, they always run away as soon as the fire3 lands.

blm vs. brd/melee in full party scirmish- spamming sleep/freeze won't get you big numbers or allot of kills but it will win skirmishes for your unit wich will help your win rates. when you do this you will be targeted by opposing dps before the healers so you will have to be aware of where your healers are because you become the tank by generating genuine enmity from the other team.

while tanking all you can do is scathe, and lethargy, and fastcast a sleep/freeze every minute, surecast sleep/freeze, equenimity gives you 15 seconds uninterupted. if you can pull the enemies out of their healer's range for a second you can sleep them, wake one up with fire3 hit rs and equenimity, and smash him down. the remaining melee/brd will run back to their healers at wich point u can continue to freecast sleep/freeze uninterrupted. when they remember that they have to kill you first they will come at you again, rince and repeat.