T8 is such a great motivational tool for DPS. I have been playing MNK on and off (between MNK and PLD) in Coil since 2.0, and never have I been challenged to actually pump DPS like I have in T8. With a bard moving around a ton, and using the 2-tank strat, I have to put out a lot of dps to have my group be on track to make the checks.
Not to say I was a bad MNK before T8, but nor did I ever want to spend my free time tracking down someone with a parser and having them sit around while I beat on a striking dummy with different variations of my rotation. Nor was I overly concerned with proper ToD clipping, CD management (was always a little slow before, sue me), etc.
Being forced to focus on these things has made me better in general because my "feel" for the class has improved drastically, so that my subconscious DPS brain is a lot more alert of when my CDs are up, when I need to clip a dot, etc while I'm dealing with mechanics or learning new things, etc.I'd love to see something in a 4-man dungeon that incorporates making sure someone knows how to squeeze a lot of dps out of their class, my initial idea for a fun, gimmicky, memorable fight would be something like going into a defunct Garlean laboratory and the boss fight would be:
Defunct Sentry Colossus
- Main mechanic would be that the actual boss doesn't do any auto-attacks or special attacks, he just has one: "Deathblow." Deathblow would do 12,000 damage to its target every 10 seconds, and adds a bleeding DoT that will do 2,000 dmg over the next 5 seconds. The 12,000 is decreased by the amount of damage done to a "Leaky Battery" sitting on a ledge directly above the boss. The boss takes damage each time it taps the Leaky Battery for Deathblow - for a total of 18 Deathblows over 3 minutes.
The purpose is that you have to have your DPS each slamming out damage with no other responsibilities for 3 minutes in order for the tank to survive the deathblows + the DoT. If your DPS can each do 250 (not difficult in even i90) then your tank only takes 6,000 unmitigated. If one DPS is only doing 180 and the other is doing 210, the tank is going to take 8,100 damage immediately + 2000 over the next 5 seconds. Might be OK for 1 or 2 Deathblows, but your healer will run out of mana and CDs healing hits that big eventually. Can have some ground AEs that add infirmary to the tank or a healing range/potency debuff to the healer to keep it interesting for them.
This way, DPS can learn to not be HORRIBLE at putting out DPS. No one is really ever forced to learn how to put out max DPS unless you are a raider that can handle everything. I'd love for the random PUGs I run T6 with on my alt BLM to actually know how to do DPS so that they can still put out decent numbers when they have learned the mechanics.
If you read that whole thing, you are a trooper because most of it devolved into me explaining an idea for a boss fight I had, but TL;DR = put a smei-tight DPS check in a rewarding 4-man dungeon so people will learn to DPS.
EDIT - Here is a post from later in the thread where I take back some of the implementation I suggested
Quote:
I guess a 4-man wouldn't be ideal for what my intention was. I was just thinking most people do 4-mans to get sol/myth (not any more with hunts lol). I'm thinking maybe as part of the quests to unlock each set of coil, you will need to prove your abilities to get in. Meaning you have to DPS down a boulder in the way of the entrance within 3 minutes or it renews its strength and you have to try again. Or you have to keep something healed for 3 minutes while moving between a bunch of different platforms that are lighting up. Or you have to manage enmity on 2 different targets for 3 minutes to keep some monsters distracted. Just make them solo trials so people can do them at their leisure.
Adding this because I think its relevant:
- RE: Maybe I shouldn't be PUGing coil on my alt if I don't want to deal with crappy players: Do you mean to say that no one should ever PUG coil? Follow up question: Why? Do you honestly think everyone in an MMO can keep to a weekly schedule of raiding with 8 people every single week? The sheer odds of 8 people keeping on the same raiding schedule for 3 weeks is staggering (assuming). People that are PUGing Coil obviously want to do coil, all I am saying is that they should be taught that their rotations and the way they DPS MATTERS in coil. In 4-man dungeons, if you want to bootshine 35x in a row, I don't really care as long as we clear. In coil, you better know at least how to play your job well or you are wasting everyone's time, in my opinion.
I am happy to teach people mechanics they haven't seen, but if I can see an i108 MNK is 8th on the enimty list and my i92 BLM is 4th - we have a serious, serious, serious problem.
Please put a DPS check in a 4-man
Printable View
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08-12-2014, 11:27 PMEhaytePlease put a DPS check in a 4-man
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08-12-2014, 11:47 PMKiara1
That's not gonna work. I had a monk in Tam-Tara HM who seemed to just use whatever he wanted to use. He managed to get 2 stacks in greased lightning...once...
Imagine getting one of those in a dungeon with a dps check.
It could be PF friendly but not DF -
08-12-2014, 11:51 PMRin_Azel
We had one of those, its called the Demon Wall... and it was nerfed for a reason.
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08-12-2014, 11:52 PMEhayteI mean, that's kind of the point. I know there is a huge flaw in the logic that no one is going to want to do the dungeon since there is a chance that you get a mega-derp DPS, but this is meant to put accountability on the DPS to force them to learn (and in some cases, realize they aren't playing well). You could even use 2 leaky batteries and alternative which one he taps to put individual accountability there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiara1
Yurp, but there was exploding floors and gnats and push-backs involved. I'm talking about something where people can solely focus on doing DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin_Azel
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08-12-2014, 11:55 PMKiara1The could add it like a guildhest, or maybe at some point during the main quest so ppl learn it early. Ppl should know most of their class' potential when they hit 50 imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
Then ofcourse you can always improve. But I mean this guy didn't seem to know what his attack did and he didn't speak english. And he had some ilvl 100 gear. I don't believe he would learn from a dps check unless someone who spoke his language would tell him everything about all of his attack moves
Edit: I like the idea it's just. SE nerfs everything in this game and that has made a lot of ppl really bad. So it doesn't fit this game -
08-12-2014, 11:56 PMValkyrieL
I was in stone vigil hM, and monk only use bootshine and fracture 3x within 15 sec, this happened all the way to first boss and 1 st trash, Dragon got summoned cuz dps was so terrible, MNK. NEVER got grease lightning. I talked to him right before dropping. And have this on video too. I may upload one day and name it "How to play a monk".
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08-12-2014, 11:57 PMEdliIf there is no need to learn he will not learn. I bet you managed to clear tam-tara just fine so why should he bother to learn his class? He won anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiara1
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08-12-2014, 11:59 PMEhayte^^ Boom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edli
/10char -
08-13-2014, 12:06 AMCharismaJust untill he meets someone whos as bad as him in playing his dps class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edli
Mostly players like this win, because they are getting carried. -
08-13-2014, 12:06 AMAirikaySo..you just want a training dummy? T8 is incredibly boring and anything can do it now since hunts give sands. Use to be a bit more of a challenge when DPs had to be somewhat efficient and couldn't just overhear and throw the kitchen sink at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
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08-13-2014, 12:07 AMCodek
I'd rather this just be a solo content thing for DPS roles (training grounds?). Don't drag the tank and healer down just because some DD doesn't know how to hit buttons in the right order.
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08-13-2014, 12:07 AMErBear
What's DPS? I do not know this term.
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08-13-2014, 12:08 AMKiara1Well that's my point. There is no point to learn. The dungeons are waaay to easy. That's why I think it would be nice to add it like a Guildhest for level 50. And maybe it could be different phases like, if you beat it you get to 2nd phase which is an even tighter damage check. Would be fun to go with your full ilvl 110 team and try see how far you could get, and it could also help ppl improve their dpsQuote:
Originally Posted by Edli
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08-13-2014, 12:10 AMEekikiIt isn't always the DPS that doesn't know their rotation. What a joy it is to party with someone that believes tanking means spamming shield lob.Quote:
Originally Posted by Codek
If you played FFXIV you'd know.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErBear
Of course, but there are a lot more DPS than tanks out there. :3Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwill
But I see your point. A tank that can't tank will wipe everyone even in the 4-man dungeons, but people can still squeak by with one or on occasion even two bad DPS. One time in Hullbreaker it was just me and the healer against each boss 'cause the DPS kept dying to mechanics. -
08-13-2014, 12:16 AMEhayte
What about adding this as a solo trial for DPS classes before you can unlock coil?
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08-13-2014, 12:19 AMDwillThe amount of people who do not know how to DPS far surpasses the amount of people that don't know how to tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eekiki
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08-13-2014, 12:27 AMEdliHealer and dps gets dragged down when you have a bad tank in party. Tank and dps gets dragged down when you have a bad healer in party. Why should dps be any different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Codek
Tanks get challenged right from the get go. There is a reason why people complain about bad tanks on low lv dungeons, that's because they're the ones that get tested. Every trash encounter is a tank check. A bad/new tank is noticeable, a bad/new bard sitting on the back is not. Is not that big of a deal when a mob dies a bit slower so they have low responsibility.
As for getting dragged down. Well it is a party based game. A member will drag down the entire party. That is how it works on every mp game. -
08-13-2014, 12:27 AMErBearI only know DD, is it the same?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwill
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08-13-2014, 12:28 AMCodekNot necessarily true, the key difference is that a bad DPS can go a long way while a bad tank reaches a point where they just can't continue any more. Lvl 50 will see far more bad DPS the tanks but lvl 25-49 will make anyone weep with how bad some tanks can be. (lvl 15-25 doesn't even need a tank)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwill
Regardless of that though, threat management is a team effort while dps checks (depending on how they are tuned) is focused only at a certain role. If the tanks and healers had a part to play (say position mobs to increase DPS uptime) then the dps check would have meaning with team based content but that doesn't seem to be what the OP is asking for. -
08-13-2014, 12:43 AMDwillMore leniency can be given when people are leveling due to the fact people get certain abilities at different levels which can sometime make tanking hell (looking at you Raging Striking on pull Bards during Normal Brayflox with a Paladin tank).Quote:
Originally Posted by Codek
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08-13-2014, 12:46 AMEekikiIsn't that a BRD doing things wrong then? Shouldn't they be opening with Windbite/Venomous Bite before doing their whole Raging Strikes thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwill
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08-13-2014, 12:49 AMVaerIt's harder than before to keep hate in lower level dungeons because they buffed the DPS jobs in recent patches and to compensate for the increased enmity generation from those buffs they increased Shield Oath/Defiance enmity generation, which lower level tanks don't get for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Codek
I feel bad for most likely under geared/leveled new tanks getting a party with synced DPS. -
08-13-2014, 01:16 AMLithera
There are DPS checks in many of the dungeons it's just that the 4-mans are lagging about 25 ilevels behind the average endgamer so unless the DPS are phenomenally crappy or the whole group is at minimum entry ilevel you don't realize they're checks. Final boss of Haukke HM is a DPS check that becomes painful with two fresh DPS. Diabolos is one as well. Final Tam HM as well. Had a MNK check out during that one and we wiped to Red Wedding because we couldn't keep up with the adds.
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08-13-2014, 01:47 AMVelthiceYes, the only difference being people actually still say DPS. #SNAP #ohnoyoudidnt #fromdowntown #dayumQuote:
Originally Posted by ErBear
As for the OP's idea, eh could be interesting. I'd like to see a demon wall 2.0 just to see what they'd come up with. -
08-13-2014, 01:53 AMJustPlainLucas
If you want people to learn how to play their jobs, that's what Coil is there for. The game's designed around casuals leveling to 50. End game is when people are really supposed to learn their jobs. If you're frustrated with someone not knowing how to play, you shouldn't be doing Coil in PUGs anyway. Those are designed for static people who have each other's rhythms down.
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08-13-2014, 01:59 AMkyuvenPeople don't use the acronym "DD" in this game because there's an actual dungeon that's abbreviated "DD," and because it's traditionally used to refer to a damage type (DD=direct damage abilities like Fire 1 that hit a single target, to contrast DoT which is damage over time. Since one of the classes that deals decent DoT damage ALSO deals direct damage, it's easier to just go with DPS.)Quote:
Originally Posted by ErBear
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08-13-2014, 02:19 AMJayCommonQuote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
Nailed it. There are DPS checks all over the place in this game, but most of us on the forums don't notice it because SE continues to put out "new dungeons" tuned to be beat in i70-75 gear and we are all i100+ You will never experience those checks with that type of disparity. We shouldn't have to purposely lower our gear to get the satisfaction of something tuned for lower levels, but basically SE has unofficially and inadvertantly stated many times that this is how it is going to be.
*They won't make challenging 8man dungeons because that takes away production time for creating new Raids/End-game (this was a direct quote)
I haven't ever heard an official response about higher tuned 4man dungeons, but it has been asked for countless times over the last year and the closest thing we ever got was Pharos Sirius. And PS wasn't even *tuned for better gear* it was just the first dungeon that actually made you suffer for trying to plow through phases and not dealing with mechanics properly. Annnnnnnnnnd, that got nerfed to the groundfloor level of that lighthouse.
And you want to know why?
Because the majority of the forums cried to NO END about PS.
I have a feeling we will never see it because Yoshi wants top tier gear coming from Raids/Primals/whatever is next, so making an i100 tuned 4man dungeon when the cap is i110 doesn't leave them any room to give ample rewards to entice people to even care to do it. I would, just for the challenge, but I think I am in the minority. OP I would love to see some 4man stuff where you needed i100 to pass the checks that have been getting put into dungeons, and maybe get some challenge added to the normal faceroll dungeon routine that we have gotten, but the realist in me isn't going to hold his breath. -
08-13-2014, 02:20 AMWarlyx
the game use the DPS acronym too.
the issue tight dps checks is that the dps of 2 mnks is way higher than 2 brd .
if the dps check is burst , Smns will have some issues (manageable but still....) -
08-13-2014, 02:22 AMAlberelThere are people in the 4-man level 50 dungeons that don't have a clue how to play their jobs and are usually either entirely silent or get aggressive when people offer them advice on how to play better. These players are a problem and the reason they exist is because no lower level content forces them to improve.Quote:
Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas
Saying that coil exists for people to learn how to play their jobs is a bit backwards; coil exists for people that already know how to play their jobs. The stuff outside of coil should be for them to learn it but currently there is little requiring them to do so besides coil itself. The few dungeons that do offer a challenge are tuned for fresh 50s resulting in fully geared players carrying the beginners who learn nothing from the experience as a result.
The solution would realistically be to either introduce an iLvl sync for dungeons or start tuning new dungeons for players close to the current iLvl cap. -
08-13-2014, 02:31 AMCuria_RegisSMNs can burst just fine quickly if needed. Raging > Energy drain > Fester > Rouse/Spur + Enkindle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
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08-13-2014, 02:56 AMBixby
What I'd really like to see is a guildhest or something with DPS checks, AOE dodging checks, aggro generation checks for tanks, healing checks for healers, where the game directly calls out who's falling down. Failing your part? Boss mechanic ensues, directly punishes the slacker, and the boss yells out some taunting RP that makes it clear what the problem is.
Because the kinds of players that reach 50 without figuring some of this stuff out are going to pay much more attention to direct, personal consequences and the game telling them something they need to improve than they are other players telling them that A leads to B and B leads to C and C leads to a wipe. -
08-13-2014, 03:04 AMEhayte
I guess a 4-man wouldn't be ideal for what my intention was. I was just thinking most people do 4-mans to get sol/myth (not any more with hunts lol). I'm thinking maybe as part of the quests to unlock each set of coil, you will need to prove your abilities to get in. Meaning you have to DPS down a boulder in the way of the entrance within 3 minutes or it renews its strength and you have to try again. Or you have to keep something healed for 3 minutes while moving between a bunch of different platforms that are lighting up. Or you have to manage enmity on 2 different targets for 3 minutes to keep some monsters distracted. Just make them solo trials so people can do them at their leisure.
Adding this because I think its relevant:
- RE: Maybe I shouldn't be PUGing coil on my alt if I don't want to deal with crappy players: Do you mean to say that no one should ever PUG coil? Follow up question: Why? Do you honestly think everyone in an MMO can keep to a weekly schedule of raiding with 8 people every single week? The sheer odds of 8 people keeping on the same raiding schedule for 3 weeks is staggering (assuming). People that are PUGing Coil obviously want to do coil, all I am saying is that they should be taught that their rotations and the way they DPS MATTERS in coil. In 4-man dungeons, if you want to bootshine 35x in a row, I don't really care as long as we clear. In coil, you better know at least how to play your job well or you are wasting everyone's time, in my opinion.
I am happy to teach people mechanics they haven't seen, but if I can see an i108 MNK is 8th on the enimty list and my i92 BLM is 4th - we have a serious, serious, serious problem. -
08-13-2014, 03:54 AMEstellios
According to one of the recent interviews they are going to be adding some kind of beginner's academy like in the SNES FF games to teach players the finer points of playing their jobs. They gave an example of the fire/ice switching for BLM, maintaining Greased Lightning for an extended period of time on MNK, and keeping hate off a Heal-spamming npc for tanks. Sounds interesting and could probably be helpful especially if there is a way to check DPS there. I await the day Cutter's Cry no longer has to be Fire III and Ice III: A beginners guide.
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08-13-2014, 04:11 AMCamouflageDamage per second , yet I still prefer to call them dd's or "damage dealers" makes more sense on so many levelsQuote:
Originally Posted by ErBear
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08-13-2014, 04:14 AMAylisPut the need where the need belongs. One of FFXIV's biggest problems is that the game for the most part is dungeon based. Adding too many forced DPS checks could have a bad turn as more groups wouldn't pass the content, more players would be stuck against a brick wall. This is especially dangerous in a game where the story line forces players through dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edli
That said in the OP's suggestion where he mentions coils and raids and places where DPS checks belong for the most part. I feel said dungeons that he mentioned would be better implimented as a series of trials that a group of four players would need to pass to earn the right to unlock the raids in general. Which in turn could have a majorly positive effect for raids. The players that are tuned to pass the trials assures later on the person is raid ready. While the ones working for raids can keep using those dungeons to improve. Then players like me who honestly don't care about raids, BiS, maxxed item level, and just wanna enjoy a nice quiet dungeon can do so and not be overly pressured.
*Edit*
He beat me too it :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
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08-13-2014, 05:08 AMNel_Celestine
The problem with this request I feel lies in the fact that SE is building up dungeons at a pace for new players to catch up. If run at the appropriate item level they do have DPS checks involved. That the player base has members well over i100 for an i70 dungeons defeats the checks entirely, but if they made dungeons for i100 gear difficulty it would have to provide rewards comparable to the challenge (i110). SE is clearly working on that route and given time the dungeons released will be nearly on par or just under par with the current top end gear and the various checks will be much more noticeable.
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08-13-2014, 05:33 AMNoshpan
A problem I see with this is that it would lead to certain classes being excluded due to being low DPS. Not because of the player's skill (or lack thereof) but due to fight mechanics. For example, high movement and sustained high DPS from a Black Mage mixes as well as water and electricity. I know that Job/Class exclusion happens anyway, but this game doesn't need ANOTHER feature for the playerbase to abuse.
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08-13-2014, 06:04 AMHaelseMikiroIf you're trying to kill people (as BLMs tend to do) this works out quite well :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Noshpan
But I also understand exactly what you're saying -
08-13-2014, 06:15 AMForteXXBut FFXIV uses DPS as a role name, not as its actual meaning, so... no you won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eekiki
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08-13-2014, 06:39 AMGiantbaneI started demon wall at something like i48 or so as a WAR (before character ilvls were a thing). I never failed due to DPS unless everyone else was dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin_Azel
I guess the Primal cluster is just that awesome.